For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

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For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby 4myGod on Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:31 am

Concise description:
I propose to change the maximum punishment from perma-ban to 6 month ban.

Specifics:
Currently we have:
Minor Infractions: Warning, 24 Hour Vacation, 72 Hour Vacation, One Week or One Month Vacation, Permanent Vacation.
This includes but is not limited to: Spamming, Off Topicing, Forms of Flaming/Trolling, Necro-bumping, Oversized Signature, Avatar Abuse, Chat/Forum Newbie Abuse, etc.

Major Infractions: Warning, One Month Vacation, Permanent Vacation.
[i]This includes but is not limited to: Cyber-bullying/Harassment, Bigotry, Intentional Deadbeating, Repeatedly Holding Players Hostage, Serial Teammate Killing, Hijacking Accounts, Systematically "Farming" New Recruits, Illegal Point Collecting, Gambling, **Point Dumping** etc.[i]


I propose Permanent Vacations never be given out to any user who still plays the game. So forum bots, or spam bots, or users only advertising their porn website could all be immediate permanent vacations. However if a user still has interest in the game I think the Permanent Vacation be changed to a 6 month vacation as the maximum punishment.

If the user comes back he has a 3 month trial period in which he can immediately receive another 6 month ban for any infraction. However, after the 3 months are over if he has not had any infractions then he gets reset to warning.

Reasoning:
A permanent ban is forever, if the person lives 54 years, then it is a 54 year ban. So let's look at minor infractions. After 5 times of being off-topic in a post a user can technically receive a Permanent ban from the site. This doesn't only hurt that user but everyone who is friends with that user.

For example... Dancing Mustard. He probably had many enemies, but he also had many friends. For him, it's not too big of a deal, yeah he can't post on the forums anymore, oh well. He will probably end up playing the game for a couple months and then stop playing out of boredom, because the community and friendship is the glue that keeps people interested in gaming websites far after the game has lost it's excitement. However, now all the people who play here and knew him or had memories on this site with him will have a huge chunk of their CC experience gone and never to coming back (permanent). This is something that could potentially make others quit, especially if Dancing Mustard or whoever received the Permanent Vacation was their only "friend".

A 6 month ban is long enough to let people know that you are serious about the rules but also not forever so people know that if they wait out the 6 months they get their friend back, so they don't quit out of anger or lack of friend. You can continue doing the 6 month ban over and over. If the user refuses to follow the rules then he will only have the opportunity to break them once every 6 months, which won't be too big of a deal.
Last edited by 4myGod on Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Community Guidelines Alteration

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:44 am

4myGod wrote:Reasoning:
A permanent ban is forever, if the person lives 54 years, then it is a 54 year ban. So let's look at minor infractions. After 5 times of being off-topic in a post a user can technically receive a Permanent ban from the site.


To follow your line of reasoning to its' logical conclusion...if a member must be told five times not to be off-topic and yet they continue to be so, it's very difficult to have much sympathy for them. Sure, I don't disagree that it's a minor infraction. But...and I realize I'm speaking only for myself here...why should I care that they have such little desire control their actions when they clearly understand the consequences? God helps those who help themselves and all that rot.

I'm not necessarily saying this suggestion is a bad one. But I am saying that individuals who are essentially acting like children as much as they can just because they can...they just don't make me care. Give me something to care about, and you might catch my interest.

4myGod wrote:For example... Dancing Mustard. He probably had many enemies, but he also had many friends. For him, it's not too big of a deal, yeah he can't post on the forums anymore, oh well.


I actually suspect it's a much bigger deal than that to him.
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Re: Community Guidelines Alteration

Postby 4myGod on Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:33 am

Woodruff wrote:
4myGod wrote:Reasoning:
A permanent ban is forever, if the person lives 54 years, then it is a 54 year ban. So let's look at minor infractions. After 5 times of being off-topic in a post a user can technically receive a Permanent ban from the site.


To follow your line of reasoning to its' logical conclusion...if a member must be told five times not to be off-topic and yet they continue to be so, it's very difficult to have much sympathy for them. Sure, I don't disagree that it's a minor infraction. But...and I realize I'm speaking only for myself here...why should I care that they have such little desire control their actions when they clearly understand the consequences? God helps those who help themselves and all that rot.

I'm not necessarily saying this suggestion is a bad one. But I am saying that individuals who are essentially acting like children as much as they can just because they can...they just don't make me care. Give me something to care about, and you might catch my interest.

4myGod wrote:For example... Dancing Mustard. He probably had many enemies, but he also had many friends. For him, it's not too big of a deal, yeah he can't post on the forums anymore, oh well.


I actually suspect it's a much bigger deal than that to him.


I have 3 points here:

Point 1
People who act childish and keep breaking the rules should be punished, and the punishment should escalate, what I am suggesting is that we change the maximum though. Let's say it is just a kid acting childish, one day hopefully he would grow up. That is why I am saying 6 month bans should be the maximum instead of banning forever.

Why should we completely wipe out anyone who wants to play the game just for "childish behavior"? 6 months is fine, we can continue doing 6 months over and over again. That 6 months is giving him a chance to grow up and come back. If he hasn't grown up, he will do something wrong and get another 6 month ban.

Point 2
If the max ban is Perma-ban then most mods with feelings would probably not want to give that out, especially to someone who was popular, so instead they would keep giving little bans and warnings in hopes of correcting the behavior of the individual. So the mods would end up stretching out the current Guidelines until it's the last straw and they drop the perma-ban. If the max punishment was only 6 months though then the mods can easily follow the guidelines strictly in giving their punishments, because 6 months is far less severe than forever.

Point 3
People will naturally react very strongly to a perma-ban. A perma-ban on a user who has friends will affect the friends almost as much as it does the user who is being punished. The piece of the community that does care about that individual will be torn apart that they are losing him/her. It will result in a huge cut to their happiness with the site. However, a 6 month ban is like saying "that user will just be taking a break." That way it doesn't tear a piece of the community apart every time someone gets the maximum punishment.
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Re: Community Guidelines Alteration

Postby timthenavigator on Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:52 am

People who act childish and keep breaking the rules should be punished, and the punishment should escalate,

Rules are rules. If you can't follow them be prepared to deal with the consequences. The Line is clearly drawn in the sand, and CC would lose some of its clout if every time someone complained about a consequence they backed off.

especially to someone who was popular,


Who cares if someone is popular? What are we, catering to Manny Ramirez here?

People will naturally react very strongly to a perma-ban. A perma-ban on a user who has friends will affect the friends almost as much as it does the user who is being punished. The piece of the community that does care about that individual will be torn apart that they are losing him/her.


Then the community that he/she is in and so strongly cares about him/her should step in before they get the perma ban. You can't stop someone from being an alcoholic after they have died from liver cancer (just an example, not trying to compare either one in anyway).
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Re: Community Guidelines Alteration

Postby Mr Changsha on Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:06 am

Woodruff wrote:
4myGod wrote:Reasoning:
A permanent ban is forever, if the person lives 54 years, then it is a 54 year ban. So let's look at minor infractions. After 5 times of being off-topic in a post a user can technically receive a Permanent ban from the site.


To follow your line of reasoning to its' logical conclusion...if a member must be told five times not to be off-topic and yet they continue to be so, it's very difficult to have much sympathy for them. Sure, I don't disagree that it's a minor infraction. But...and I realize I'm speaking only for myself here...why should I care that they have such little desire control their actions when they clearly understand the consequences? God helps those who help themselves and all that rot.

I'm not necessarily saying this suggestion is a bad one. But I am saying that individuals who are essentially acting like children as much as they can just because they can...they just don't make me care. Give me something to care about, and you might catch my interest.

4myGod wrote:For example... Dancing Mustard. He probably had many enemies, but he also had many friends. For him, it's not too big of a deal, yeah he can't post on the forums anymore, oh well.


I actually suspect it's a much bigger deal than that to him.


With regards to going off-topic, woodruff. I would happily admit that I've sent threads soaring off-topic on numerous occasions and do you know what punishments I have received? One 'friendly warning' when I was, a little more blatantly that usual, causing trouble over the destruction of flamewars. That's it. Do you know why? Because I understand that the one thing that will actually get you into bother here is 'screwing with the mods'. That's what gets you the bans.

Screwing with a member's thread (as in being an annoyance to that member) seems to be absolutely fine. In the last week I have been absolutely horrible to johnnyrocket24, flaming the hell out of him for being a hypocrite (which he is!). Moderator response? Nothing. I completely buggered up AA Fitz's 'No more Free Ride' thread last week as well. Moderator response? Nothing. Now are these chaps capable of looking after themselves? Indeed they are. Do I pick on weak targets? Very rarely and certainly not consistantly. But I think you take my point here: you can go off-topic continuously (as I do), you can flame other members (which I like to every once in a while) and what's the moderator response? Absolutely nothing.

But imagine I turned my pen on JPCloet rather JohnnyRocket24. How many posts before I found myself on a ban? Two? Three?

That's how appaling the state of affairs are in CC right now. Take on a mod and you'll get banned i.e owen or DM. Ruin AA Fitz's thread, and the mods let that go without blinking.

Do I want mods jumping all over me everytime I decide to take a thread in a more unusual direction? Absolutely not. But should they have two standards of moderation: one to protect 'their authority' and an other for the rest of us? That, to my mind is the issue.
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Re: Community Guidelines Alteration

Postby 4myGod on Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:32 am

Please stay on topic guys...

This post is not about whether or not a user should be punished, but about whether or not the maximum punishment should be changed from perma-ban to 6 month ban
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Re: Community Guidelines Alteration

Postby jpcloet on Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:42 am

Please continue this in a positive manner.

Going from 1 month to perma is a big jump. Having 6 months and 1year step might be useful. Add a zero-tolerance rule after the one year like a probation. Any last rule break after a 1 year ban, then you go perma. How does that sound?
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Re: Community Guidelines Alteration

Postby 4myGod on Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:01 am

jpcloet wrote:Please continue this in a positive manner.

Going from 1 month to perma is a big jump. Having 6 months and 1year step might be useful. Add a zero-tolerance rule after the one year like a probation. Any last rule break after a 1 year ban, then you go perma. How does that sound?


Why have a permanent ban ever? It's like saying "I know in your life you will never ever get better". A lot can happen to someone in 1 year, or in 2 years or even in 10 years.

Plus, permanent bans are going to effectpeople they shouldn't, people who didn't cause the problem, they are going to hurt the community depending on the person being banned. So I will explain why I think we don't need a permanent ban ever:

If the maximum punishment was not a permanent ban things would still run smoothly. The site could have a 6 month ban or even a year, then a 1-3 month probation period afterward where even 1 bad thing will give him another 6 month-1 year ban, right back where he was. It's like parole, he comes back for a couple months to prove that he is a changed man and will abide by the rules, if not he goes back to ban. By doing this it won't hurt the community who was on his side nearly as much, because they can wait it out.

If the guy was bent on taking down the community, just a real bad guy, what are the chances he is going to wait 6 months anyways? If he does, and he comes back and does it again, what are the chances he is going to wait another 6 months? If he does again and comes back, what are the chances he waits another 6 months? The chances of him coming back will get slimmer and slimmer, and it will eventually weed out the ones who have no intention of changing, and it won't hurt the community. Those who are willing to change will change.

The community will forget about people who were perma-banned eventually, as they will 6-month banned. The difference is a 6 month ban won't hurt the community as much as a perma-ban, no matter how popular the member who was banned is.
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Re: Community Guidelines Alteration

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:32 pm

4myGod wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
4myGod wrote:Reasoning:
A permanent ban is forever, if the person lives 54 years, then it is a 54 year ban. So let's look at minor infractions. After 5 times of being off-topic in a post a user can technically receive a Permanent ban from the site.


To follow your line of reasoning to its' logical conclusion...if a member must be told five times not to be off-topic and yet they continue to be so, it's very difficult to have much sympathy for them. Sure, I don't disagree that it's a minor infraction. But...and I realize I'm speaking only for myself here...why should I care that they have such little desire control their actions when they clearly understand the consequences? God helps those who help themselves and all that rot.
I'm not necessarily saying this suggestion is a bad one. But I am saying that individuals who are essentially acting like children as much as they can just because they can...they just don't make me care. Give me something to care about, and you might catch my interest.

4myGod wrote:For example... Dancing Mustard. He probably had many enemies, but he also had many friends. For him, it's not too big of a deal, yeah he can't post on the forums anymore, oh well.

I actually suspect it's a much bigger deal than that to him.


I have 3 points here:
Point 1
People who act childish and keep breaking the rules should be punished, and the punishment should escalate, what I am suggesting is that we change the maximum though. Let's say it is just a kid acting childish, one day hopefully he would grow up. That is why I am saying 6 month bans should be the maximum instead of banning forever.
Why should we completely wipe out anyone who wants to play the game just for "childish behavior"?


Well, he can still play the game. It's only the forum that the individual is removed from.

4myGod wrote:6 months is fine, we can continue doing 6 months over and over again. That 6 months is giving him a chance to grow up and come back. If he hasn't grown up, he will do something wrong and get another 6 month ban.


Sure, I don't necessarily disagree with that. Again, I wasn't saying the suggestion was a bad one...I actually like it.

4myGod wrote:Point 2
If the max ban is Perma-ban then most mods with feelings would probably not want to give that out, especially to someone who was popular


Truthfully, I HOPE that the mods AREN'T taking popularity into account very much. I don't want them to, as it should not be relevant, in my opinion.

4myGod wrote:Point 3
People will naturally react very strongly to a perma-ban. A perma-ban on a user who has friends will affect the friends almost as much as it does the user who is being punished. The piece of the community that does care about that individual will be torn apart that they are losing him/her. It will result in a huge cut to their happiness with the site. However, a 6 month ban is like saying "that user will just be taking a break." That way it doesn't tear a piece of the community apart every time someone gets the maximum punishment.


You may be right. I suspect that you're not though, as there will in my opinion oftentimes be the same sort of outcry about a 6-month ban as there has been for a couple of perma-bans lately though...given that 6-months IS a pretty considerable length of time itself.
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Re: Community Guidelines Alteration

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:39 pm

Mr Changsha wrote:With regards to going off-topic, woodruff. I would happily admit that I've sent threads soaring off-topic on numerous occasions and do you know what punishments I have received? One 'friendly warning' when I was, a little more blatantly that usual, causing trouble over the destruction of flamewars. That's it. Do you know why? Because I understand that the one thing that will actually get you into bother here is 'screwing with the mods'. That's what gets you the bans.


I have NEVER (not once) publicly berated a mod for anything (that I remember at all). Yet I have received a 24-hour ban (from Andy himself). I didn't really feel it was deserved and yet I do recognize that the post that got me the ban was close enough to the edge that I'm probably biased in thinking that it didn't cross the line.

Mr Changsha wrote:Screwing with a member's thread (as in being an annoyance to that member) seems to be absolutely fine. In the last week I have been absolutely horrible to johnnyrocket24, flaming the hell out of him for being a hypocrite (which he is!). Moderator response? Nothing. I completely buggered up AA Fitz's 'No more Free Ride' thread last week as well. Moderator response? Nothing. Now are these chaps capable of looking after themselves? Indeed they are. Do I pick on weak targets? Very rarely and certainly not consistantly. But I think you take my point here: you can go off-topic continuously (as I do), you can flame other members (which I like to every once in a while) and what's the moderator response? Absolutely nothing.


I think that has far less to do with "moderator response" than it does with "other user response". What I mean by that is...a moderator is not likely to SEE you acting up like that unless your threads are reported. They're not going to be able to do anything about a situation for which they don't have any knowledge. Dancing Mustard (and Fred) tended to...um...create "individuals who would gleefully report them", to put it nicely, due to their methodology. Whereas you tend to inject a great deal of non-abrasive (or, more appropriately...not as APPARENTLY abrasive) humor into your postings of that nature. So I guess I'm saying they tend to bring that sort of attention on themselves a great deal more than you do, as some posters may be more happy to report them than they are you.

So I do believe you're misunderstanding that situation a bit.
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Re: Community Guidelines Alteration

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:41 pm

jpcloet wrote:Please continue this in a positive manner.

Going from 1 month to perma is a big jump. Having 6 months and 1year step might be useful. Add a zero-tolerance rule after the one year like a probation. Any last rule break after a 1 year ban, then you go perma. How does that sound?


So then as follows:
24-hour ban
3-day ban
1-month ban
6-month ban
1-year ban
Get the bleep out of here.

That seems to me to be VERY lenient, so I think it's probably a good compromise (I'm not a fan of leniency in these cases, but I do understand that my view isn't the only one).
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Re: Community Guidelines Alteration

Postby jiminski on Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:10 pm

Woodruff wrote:
jpcloet wrote:Please continue this in a positive manner.

Going from 1 month to perma is a big jump. Having 6 months and 1year step might be useful. Add a zero-tolerance rule after the one year like a probation. Any last rule break after a 1 year ban, then you go perma. How does that sound?


So then as follows:
24-hour ban
3-day ban
1-month ban
6-month ban
1-year ban
Get the bleep out of here.

That seems to me to be VERY lenient, so I think it's probably a good compromise (I'm not a fan of leniency in these cases, but I do understand that my view isn't the only one).



nah, i don't like all this standardisation; it makes the site too exacting and it puts too much facile power in the hands of the mods. The judgement on misdemeanour must be flexible and subjective.

I think there should be the ability to permanently ban but in the most extreme cases: Repetitive and Aggressive Racists; Repetitive and Aggressively abusive.. etc.. But never in the circumstance of repeated minor infraction.

We need rule breakers as much as we need rules.
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Re: Community Guidelines Alteration

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:41 pm

jiminski wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
jpcloet wrote:Please continue this in a positive manner.

Going from 1 month to perma is a big jump. Having 6 months and 1year step might be useful. Add a zero-tolerance rule after the one year like a probation. Any last rule break after a 1 year ban, then you go perma. How does that sound?


So then as follows:
24-hour ban
3-day ban
1-month ban
6-month ban
1-year ban
Get the bleep out of here.

That seems to me to be VERY lenient, so I think it's probably a good compromise (I'm not a fan of leniency in these cases, but I do understand that my view isn't the only one).


nah, i don't like all this standardisation; it makes the site too exacting and it puts too much facile power in the hands of the mods. The judgement on misdemeanour must be flexible and subjective.


That is my personal preference, as well. But it does not seem to be preferable to most.

jiminski wrote:We need rule breakers as much as we need rules.


I'm afraid I don't at all understand why this would be the case.
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Re: Perma-ban to 6 Month ban

Postby owenshooter on Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:48 pm

i believe offenses should be separate. so if you receive an offense for trolling, to take a step up, you have to commit the same offense again. if you then commit an offense for PM abuse, you now have a separate record for PM abuse. rolling all offenses up into one rolling ball does not make sense. this is a nice start, but i would like to toss this into the mix.-0
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Re: Perma-ban to 6 Month ban

Postby the.killing.44 on Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:51 pm

owenshooter wrote:i believe offenses should be separate. so if you receive an offense for trolling, to take a step up, you have to commit the same offense again. if you then commit an offense for PM abuse, you now have a separate record for PM abuse. rolling all offenses up into one rolling ball does not make sense. this is a nice start, but i would like to toss this into the mix.-0

Yes, I agree. In fact, to further this, I suggest we make each separate offense have its own ladder. i.e.:

LIVE CHAT
Warning
Kick
24hr
etc…

FLAMING
Warning
24hr
etc…

and so on and so forth.

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