For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:15 am

As mentioned, any roll back method would essentially be unmanageable to keep track of---with the current tools we have in place behind the scenes. I know Lack has planned updates for various behind the scenes things, however, he primarily likes to focus on things that have an impact on a the largest range of users (I.E. mostly game features or things for a large user base, like the Invite Feature for Premiums, and the Trial Pay for Freemiums).

For the most part, as you can see from some of the data that was posted, the largest majority of users on Conquer Club, frequenting the forums or not, have been able to survive and thrive under the Community Guidelines.

Conquer Club is a World Domination website---and we don't profess to be anything else.


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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby MeDeFe on Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:48 pm

Nightstrike, after having collected a little empirical data and gotten an overall impression of the punishment system I can say that it sucked. There's a reason people got upset with it. Several reasons in fact, they have been outlined in this thread as well as a few others.

Only one of the reasons has been addressed by the recent change, and not as decisively as most had hoped for.



AndyDufresne wrote:As mentioned, any roll back method would essentially be unmanageable to keep track of---with the current tools we have in place behind the scenes. I know Lack has planned updates for various behind the scenes things, however, he primarily likes to focus on things that have an impact on a the largest range of users (I.E. mostly game features or things for a large user base, like the Invite Feature for Premiums, and the Trial Pay for Freemiums).

For the most part, as you can see from some of the data that was posted, the largest majority of users on Conquer Club, frequenting the forums or not, have been able to survive and thrive under the Community Guidelines.

Conquer Club is a World Domination website---and we don't profess to be anything else.


--Andy

You should become a politician, Andy. Really, you could be highly successful. In this post you tell us that there are things we don't know, that these things may change in the future, that the most sensible system proposed in this thread is unmanageable with the tools you currently have (which we, btw, still don't know anything about) and that everything that is being done is done for the greater good for the greatest number of people.

You don't tell us anything substantial, though.

Even with the most barebone tools imagineable, namely, a list of a person's infractions and the ban/unban button, a rollback system as you call it is manageable. The button is already there, and I really hope you keep records and haven't just been guessing at how long a person's last ban was.


Without probationary periods to give people a chance to shorten their next ban, 6 months are far too long for minor infractions. Changsha quite eloquently described just what 6 months are, half a year for going off-topic or this undefined "trolling" is draconic, especially if it's 6 months for each infraction.

Furthermore, where do you draw the line between "common flaming" and "cyber-bullying/harassment"?
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby GENERAL STONEHAM on Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:26 pm

MeDeFe wrote:Nightstrike, after having collected a little empirical data and gotten an overall impression of the punishment system I can say that it sucked. There's a reason people got upset with it. Several reasons in fact, they have been outlined in this thread as well as a few others.

Only one of the reasons has been addressed by the recent change, and not as decisively as most had hoped for.



AndyDufresne wrote:As mentioned, any roll back method would essentially be unmanageable to keep track of---with the current tools we have in place behind the scenes. I know Lack has planned updates for various behind the scenes things, however, he primarily likes to focus on things that have an impact on a the largest range of users (I.E. mostly game features or things for a large user base, like the Invite Feature for Premiums, and the Trial Pay for Freemiums).

For the most part, as you can see from some of the data that was posted, the largest majority of users on Conquer Club, frequenting the forums or not, have been able to survive and thrive under the Community Guidelines.

Conquer Club is a World Domination website---and we don't profess to be anything else.


--Andy

You should become a politician, Andy. Really, you could be highly successful. In this post you tell us that there are things we don't know, that these things may change in the future, that the most sensible system proposed in this thread is unmanageable with the tools you currently have (which we, btw, still don't know anything about) and that everything that is being done is done for the greater good for the greatest number of people.

You don't tell us anything substantial, though.

Even with the most barebone tools imagineable, namely, a list of a person's infractions and the ban/unban button, a rollback system as you call it is manageable. The button is already there, and I really hope you keep records and haven't just been guessing at how long a person's last ban was.


Without probationary periods to give people a chance to shorten their next ban, 6 months are far too long for minor infractions. Changsha quite eloquently described just what 6 months are, half a year for going off-topic or this undefined "trolling" is draconic, especially if it's 6 months for each infraction.

Furthermore, where do you draw the line between "common flaming" and "cyber-bullying/harassment"?


It's apparent, the Moderators and Administrators of C.C. want to continue to use a sledge hammer on a tack, instead of using a light touch of a finger to secure it.

As usual we have the Moderators and others from C.C. rounding their wagons in defense of their heavy-handed tactics against minor infractions. They seem to be drunk on the power to be able to exile the political dissidents of C.C.

Very sad and disappointing.

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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby Woodruff on Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:35 pm

MeDeFe wrote:Even with the most barebone tools imagineable, namely, a list of a person's infractions and the ban/unban button, a rollback system as you call it is manageable.


Truthfully, it seems to me that a simple Excel spreadsheet with multiple accesses to it (for each of the mods/admins) would take care of it quite nicely. I would certainly be willing to create it for Andy, if he felt the technical know-how for it was missing (what can I say, I'm an Excel wizard).

MeDeFe wrote:Furthermore, where do you draw the line between "common flaming" and "cyber-bullying/harassment"?


For this, I don't think you CAN draw a line. It seems to me that there has to be some "human judgement" to make this sort of a determination.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby Timminz on Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:41 pm

Woodruff wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:Furthermore, where do you draw the line between "common flaming" and "cyber-bullying/harassment"?


For this, I don't think you CAN draw a line. It seems to me that there has to be some "human judgement" to make this sort of a determination.

Agreed, yet I feel that I could make the distinction clearly.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby EvilCookie on Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:16 pm

Why are these forums even so strict? Compared to other forums.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby Artimis on Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:46 am

EvilCookie wrote:Why are these forums even so strict? Compared to other forums.


It wasn't always the case, it's a recent development(the last 4 months or so):

Subject: Flame Wars Removed

Hyasri wrote:Unlike the beautiful colo(u)r scheme we launched on April 1st as an April Fools joke, the removal of Flame Wars was no joke. We have given this a lot of thought and consideration and agree that Flame Wars no longer fits into the future vision for the site. It was becoming more clear that the flames were spilling out of that forum and taking up more moderation time to sort out.

We were also concerned about the unfriendly atmosphere this was generating for new people. I realise this will be an unpopular move with some of you, but I can assure you a lot of thought has gone into this.

Peace & Love will also be removed very shortly, that was fun while it lasted :P
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby owenshooter on Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:19 am

i find it very difficult to believe that you can't rescind DM's ban, especially since it was absolutely bogus... i mean, how difficult could it be for you to go back a few WEEKS and reconsider what it was that you guys did to DM for nothing more than playing with your minds and rules, and only breaking one of them (hint, he did not break a rule). stating that you won't roll back punishments for previous infractions is just ludicrous. you stated how few perma-bans are due to forum activity. how hard could it be for you create another admin, like hysari (hi! sorry!), and to re-evaluate each case and reconsider the perma-bans? great that a change has been made. unbending in your unwillingness to reconsider that team CC slayed a vibrant part/contributor to the forums over nothing more than the fact that he out foxed, outsmarted and bruised your egos... nice change, now you should reconsider looking back into all the forum bans, since there aren't that many, and it truly wouldn't take that much time to do...-0
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby notyou2 on Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:56 pm

Are you going to institute banning of players that beat mods/admins in games?.....you may as well as that fits with current mod/admin behaviour
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby GENERAL STONEHAM on Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:16 am

Blanket amnesty for all, except for multis and cheaters!

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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby owenshooter on Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:22 pm

when is andy coming back? or is that it? ducking the obvious questions about how this pertains to DM and a few others that don't deserve perma-bans?-0

owenshooter wrote:i find it very difficult to believe that you can't rescind DM's ban, especially since it was absolutely bogus... i mean, how difficult could it be for you to go back a few WEEKS and reconsider what it was that you guys did to DM for nothing more than playing with your minds and rules, and only breaking one of them (hint, he did not break a rule). stating that you won't roll back punishments for previous infractions is just ludicrous. you stated how few perma-bans are due to forum activity. how hard could it be for you create another admin, like hysari (hi! sorry!), and to re-evaluate each case and reconsider the perma-bans? great that a change has been made. unbending in your unwillingness to reconsider that team CC slayed a vibrant part/contributor to the forums over nothing more than the fact that he out foxed, outsmarted and bruised your egos... nice change, now you should reconsider looking back into all the forum bans, since there aren't that many, and it truly wouldn't take that much time to do...-0
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby MeDeFe on Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:31 pm

I think he's hoping we'll get bored and let this die, or, alternatively, that we'll bump this thread so often that it will at some point be declared to have gone "off-topic" and be locked.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby squishyg on Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:35 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:Ahoy Folks,

Taking into account the public opinions in this topic (in addition to a number of others located in other topics), along with Team CC input, and lastly with Disciplinary Data History of Conquer Club, the Minor Infractions Disciplinary scale from this date forth will be as follows:

Warning, 24 Hour Vacation, 72 Hour Vacation, 1 Week Vacation, 1 Month Vacation, 6 Month Vacation* -- *with repeated 6 Month Vacations should any user conduct Minor Infractions upon their release from Vacation.

For now, we've decided to go without the more bulky and more difficult to track system of roll back probationary periods. With the current tools we have in place for Disciplinary Measures, I don't think we can efficiently, consistently, and approriately keep track of an extended system.

===============================

And because while doing Disciplinary Data History research, I found the results to be rather interesting, and I know the community is sometimes interested in hard number, I thought I would share some of the general data numbers with you all. Since January 2006:

  • Total of Permanent Website Vacations Issued to Date, excluding spambots/mutlis/misc: 51

    • Total of Permanent Website Vacations Issued to Date, brought about by Gaming Infractions: 41 of 51
    • Total of Permanent Website Vacations Issued to Date, brought about by Forum Infractions: 10 of 51

      • Total of Permanent Forum Vacations Issued to Date, excluding spambots/mutlis/misc, and those who've already reached a Permanent Website Ban: 17

===============

I'll be updating the Community Guidelines and other topics as necessary.


--Andy



Andy, is it possible for you to review the cases of the 10 users who were perma-banned for forum violations and re-evaluate them based on the new guidelines? While I understand how busy you must be, if 2 cases are reviewed a week you could get through them in 5 weeks.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby notyou2 on Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:42 pm

That sounds VERY reasonable Squishy....good suggestion
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:23 am

squishyg wrote:Andy, is it possible for you to review the cases of the 10 users who were perma-banned for forum violations and re-evaluate them based on the new guidelines? While I understand how busy you must be, if 2 cases are reviewed a week you could get through them in 5 weeks.

Those cases were quite extreme cases. The users involved were all either vacationed for: Extreme bigotry/hate speech, or they had forum violations in addition to a large number of multiple accounts repeatedly, or they there were engaged in taking down the website.


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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby MeDeFe on Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:59 am

AndyDufresne wrote:
squishyg wrote:Andy, is it possible for you to review the cases of the 10 users who were perma-banned for forum violations and re-evaluate them based on the new guidelines? While I understand how busy you must be, if 2 cases are reviewed a week you could get through them in 5 weeks.

Those cases were quite extreme cases. The users involved were all either vacationed for: Extreme bigotry/hate speech, or they had forum violations in addition to a large number of multiple accounts repeatedly, or they there were engaged in taking down the website.


--Andy

Which of those applies to DM? (And don't give me the multi nonsense, there were 4 people with 1 account each, all were allowed to buy back in as opposed to only the first account as is the usual policy) Which of those applies to xtra?

There are 10 cases you say, you've had no problem applying rules retroactively in the past, so why now all of a sudden?
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:03 am

MeDeFe wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
squishyg wrote:Andy, is it possible for you to review the cases of the 10 users who were perma-banned for forum violations and re-evaluate them based on the new guidelines? While I understand how busy you must be, if 2 cases are reviewed a week you could get through them in 5 weeks.

Those cases were quite extreme cases. The users involved were all either vacationed for: Extreme bigotry/hate speech, or they had forum violations in addition to a large number of multiple accounts repeatedly, or they there were engaged in taking down the website.


--Andy

Which of those applies to DM? (And don't give me the multi nonsense, there were 4 people with 1 account each, all were allowed to buy back in as opposed to only the first account as is the usual policy) Which of those applies to xtra?

There are 10 cases you say, you've had no problem applying rules retroactively in the past, so why now all of a sudden?


You are mistaken in thinking Dancing Mustard was apart of the group. Squishyg was referring to those who received a complete website vacation. Dancing Mustard is only on a complete Forum Vacation.


--Andy
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby MeDeFe on Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:30 am

AndyDufresne wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
squishyg wrote:Andy, is it possible for you to review the cases of the 10 users who were perma-banned for forum violations and re-evaluate them based on the new guidelines? While I understand how busy you must be, if 2 cases are reviewed a week you could get through them in 5 weeks.

Those cases were quite extreme cases. The users involved were all either vacationed for: Extreme bigotry/hate speech, or they had forum violations in addition to a large number of multiple accounts repeatedly, or they there were engaged in taking down the website.


--Andy

Which of those applies to DM? (And don't give me the multi nonsense, there were 4 people with 1 account each, all were allowed to buy back in as opposed to only the first account as is the usual policy) Which of those applies to xtra?

There are 10 cases you say, you've had no problem applying rules retroactively in the past, so why now all of a sudden?

You are mistaken in thinking Dancing Mustard was apart of the group. Squishyg was referring to those who received a complete website vacation. Dancing Mustard is only on a complete Forum Vacation.


--Andy

Ah, I think you're right, when she said "permabanned" I took it to mean from the forums and not from the website.

Well, in that case I will just float the idea of reviewing the cases of the 17 who have been permanently forumbanned.
Last edited by MeDeFe on Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:55 pm

No worries---I usually try to avoid using plain "permaban" or permavacation without qualifiers---such as Forum, Live Chat, Ratings, or Complete Website, as the term often isn't descriptive enough.

As for reviewing those currently on Complete Anything Vacations (Forum, Live Chat, Ratings, Website) most likely we will continue to move from this point forward.


--Andy
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby MeDeFe on Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:25 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:As for reviewing those currently on Complete Anything Vacations (Forum, Live Chat, Ratings, Website) most likely we will continue to move from this point forward.

Which means...
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby notyou2 on Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:07 pm

They have made it very clear...they do not want DM here as they can't deal with his wit and writing capabilities. He keeps making them look bad while skirting the rules. Its a very sad state of affairs.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby owenshooter on Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:16 pm

MeDeFe wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:As for reviewing those currently on Complete Anything Vacations (Forum, Live Chat, Ratings, Website) most likely we will continue to move from this point forward.

Which means...

which means they refuse to admit they cocked up by banning DM for not violating any rule... the mere fact that part of his ban was for "skirting the rules" should be pause enough for them to reconsider lowering his perma-ban to a 6 month ban. previously, andy stated that there were too many cases to go back and look at them all. then within the same post, he stated how less than 12 people are perma-banned from the forum due to their posting, etc.. so, there are far too few admins to look back into 12 cases? they refuse to go back on this horrible decision, because they don't want to admit they screwed up and shot the gap when they banned him. the best thing about twill was, he was mature enough to admit his mistakes and undo the ones he made... yet another reason the big guy is sorely missed around here...-0

p.s.-lesson be learned... if you are smarter than the mods, can out write and out think them, while staying within the rules OR as andy declared it "skirting the rules", you are going to take the CC Dirt Nap...

p.p.s.-this sums up how seriously they are taking this request:
Subject: Unban Dancing Mustard
lackattack wrote:4mygod, we've all read your rant enough times. Please don't spam the forum any further (especially not with fake suggestion topics!).
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby notyou2 on Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:27 pm

It took them all of under 2 hours to lock it....see, told ya....hes not wanted, apparently they can't handle him.

I wonder who will be next to disappear in the middle of the night?
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby squishyg on Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:24 pm

MeDeFe wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
squishyg wrote:Andy, is it possible for you to review the cases of the 10 users who were perma-banned for forum violations and re-evaluate them based on the new guidelines? While I understand how busy you must be, if 2 cases are reviewed a week you could get through them in 5 weeks.

Those cases were quite extreme cases. The users involved were all either vacationed for: Extreme bigotry/hate speech, or they had forum violations in addition to a large number of multiple accounts repeatedly, or they there were engaged in taking down the website.


--Andy

Which of those applies to DM? (And don't give me the multi nonsense, there were 4 people with 1 account each, all were allowed to buy back in as opposed to only the first account as is the usual policy) Which of those applies to xtra?

There are 10 cases you say, you've had no problem applying rules retroactively in the past, so why now all of a sudden?

You are mistaken in thinking Dancing Mustard was apart of the group. Squishyg was referring to those who received a complete website vacation. Dancing Mustard is only on a complete Forum Vacation.


--Andy

Ah, I think you're right, when he said "permabanned" I took it to mean from the forums and not from the website.

Well, in that case I will just float the idea of reviewing the cases of the 17 who have been permanently forumbanned.


I misunderstood. My request should have been for a review of those who have been forum banned. Can you do that Andy?

p.s. I'm a woman MoDeFe :)
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby GENERAL STONEHAM on Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:55 am

...is it just me or is Andy having difficulties trying to give a straight answer?
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