For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby MeDeFe on Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:14 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:Though indeed there are a few on the other side of the argument, and I can understand where you are coming from, I think the benefits of the community as a whole, out weighs those few.


--Andy

I beg your pardon? There are a few what?

I'm not being sarcastic here, I really don't quite get what you're trying to say, probably that there are a few drawbacks. If that is the case, how about naming the drawbacks of reviewing the cases of the permanently forumbanned and letting them back in or putting them on those draconically long 6 month bans.

I say "draconically long" because that is what 6 months for a minor infraction are when there's no method of ever shortening the sentence.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby GENERAL STONEHAM on Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:01 pm

MeDeFe wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:Though indeed there are a few on the other side of the argument, and I can understand where you are coming from, I think the benefits of the community as a whole, out weighs those few.


--Andy

I beg your pardon? There are a few what?

I'm not being sarcastic here, I really don't quite get what you're trying to say, probably that there are a few drawbacks. If that is the case, how about naming the drawbacks of reviewing the cases of the permanently forumbanned and letting them back in or putting them on those draconically long 6 month bans.

I say "draconically long" because that is what 6 months for a minor infraction are when there's no method of ever shortening the sentence.




Andy is trying to tell us that his decision is based on the majority of posters?!?! Really, where does he get his poll from?

C'mon Andy, get real. You don't speak for the majority, you speak for the Moderators and administrators of C.C.

All these complaints that some of us have is about bias rulings, draconian punishment for petty offenses and not getting straight answers to simple questions.

Regards,
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby notyou2 on Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:53 pm

Andy, people wouldn't criticize if they didn't care. They are vocal as they have a vested interest in CC.

It appears that CC is assessing the community as a whole and deciding what is best for the community without actually providing any back-up. This is detrimental to the community as a whole and only fans the fires. Something is going to break sooner or later.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby TotoroHat on Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:47 am

I will get flamed for this I am sure but I had to say something because this has gotten out of hand. I will never do something on this site to deserve a ban (for however long) because that is not the person I am. Period! It seems to me that a few bad apples ruined this site for the rest of us and then were banned from using the site for various reasons that seem perfectly logical to me to get a ban. Although I will defend persons right to be racist to the death, this site has a right to legislate things how they see fit and created guidelines to allow people to work within them or not, which results in their bans when they choose to disobey them. If they do not like the rules then create a new site or get enough people on this site to demand change. (30-100 people out of 10,000 is not enough people to demand change... you would need 4000 people for that.)

So far I see a handful of people on this site (about 30 names come to mind) who do 98% of the complaining (or posting in cheating/abuse) and the other 99.99999% of us who complain only in case of a Multi or such. This complaining is ruining the site and makes me want to leave and never play here again. Just give up already and stop complaining. You are whining like Mr. Burns stole your candy!
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby jefjef on Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:26 am

I agree 100% with Genral Stonehams avatar. You can't argue with that. Oh and what Totoro said. I post in C & A more than I should as many others do too. But it is usually with a smile on my face. As far as Perma bans go this is a gaming site. If someone violates the forum rules ban them from it. Permanently if it's that severe but to ban someone from playing as long as they aren't a multi or a cheater for something posted in forums just makes no sense.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby stahrgazer on Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:05 am

MeDeFe wrote:Of reviewing the cases of people who have been permanently banned from the forums...

The benefits are: Being consistent, not applying double standards, displaying the possession of common sense.
The drawbacks are: None.

Or am I missing something.


Yeah, you're missing that that means admins/mods who gave out the bans would have to give out the unbans. Double the work :lol:
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby stahrgazer on Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:10 am

TotoroHat wrote:So far I see a handful of people on this site (about 30 names come to mind) who do 98% of the complaining (or posting in cheating/abuse) and the other 99.99999% of us who complain only in case of a Multi or such. This complaining is ruining the site and makes me want to leave and never play here again. Just give up already and stop complaining. You are whining like Mr. Burns stole your candy!



Just wondering.. does toto consider himself one of those 30 names of complainers, given that he's complaining about complaining, whining like his candy got took that he should leave the site and never play here again because some people post that they want to see equitable treatment and have some of their friends unbanned from their prior bannings for things that are no longer bannable offenses anyway? :lol:
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby notyou2 on Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:12 am

TotoroHat wrote:I will get flamed for this I am sure but I had to say something because this has gotten out of hand. I will never do something on this site to deserve a ban (for however long) because that is not the person I am. Period! It seems to me that a few bad apples ruined this site for the rest of us and then were banned from using the site for various reasons that seem perfectly logical to me to get a ban. Although I will defend persons right to be racist to the death, this site has a right to legislate things how they see fit and created guidelines to allow people to work within them or not, which results in their bans when they choose to disobey them. If they do not like the rules then create a new site or get enough people on this site to demand change. (30-100 people out of 10,000 is not enough people to demand change... you would need 4000 people for that.)

So far I see a handful of people on this site (about 30 names come to mind) who do 98% of the complaining (or posting in cheating/abuse) and the other 99.99999% of us who complain only in case of a Multi or such. This complaining is ruining the site and makes me want to leave and never play here again. Just give up already and stop complaining. You are whining like Mr. Burns stole your candy!


How will the site grow and change for the better if no one complained? Your stance is just ludicrous.

Do you think South Africa would be the country it is today if no one complained 25 years ago?

How about the United States? If the people didnt complain, perhaps it would still be a colony.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby squishyg on Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:34 pm

TotoroHat wrote:I will defend persons right to be racist to the death


I'm trying really hard to give you the benefit of the doubt that you misrepresented yourself here. Really? Racist? To the death? :shock:
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby TotoroHat on Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:20 am

In response to those posting about my reply, thank you. I do believe that we need people fighting for change and that it would be a good idea for change to happen on this site. I however see the same old people rehashing the same old problems and rehashing the same old lines with out any new people joining the fight. 95% (or so) of the people on this site do not post anything that could get them even remotely considered for a ban and for the most part the mods do the best that they can to root out multies and abusive chat. I have no information on specific cases or the like so I cannot comment on those. It seems to me that there are a few people on this site that like to complain about the injustices and yet do not really care about whoever was unfairly influenced. They just want to complain or cause harm. (You know who you are... you who post improper threads in C & A that have nothing to do with anything or berate the mods simply because it's fun).


Also, in South Africa, millions of people rose up to stop the injustice. Here, on CC, a few people are making trouble for the rest of us simply to make trouble. (Not all posters mind you but enough that I am sickened)!
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby MeDeFe on Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:02 am

Fine, have the pm public.
MeDeFe wrote:Subject: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

TotoroHat wrote:I will get flamed for this I am sure but I had to say something because this has gotten out of hand. I will never do something on this site to deserve a ban (for however long) because that is not the person I am. Period! It seems to me that a few bad apples ruined this site for the rest of us and then were banned from using the site for various reasons that seem perfectly logical to me to get a ban. Although I will defend persons right to be racist to the death, this site has a right to legislate things how they see fit and created guidelines to allow people to work within them or not, which results in their bans when they choose to disobey them. If they do not like the rules then create a new site or get enough people on this site to demand change. (30-100 people out of 10,000 is not enough people to demand change... you would need 4000 people for that.)

So far I see a handful of people on this site (about 30 names come to mind) who do 98% of the complaining (or posting in cheating/abuse) and the other 99.99999% of us who complain only in case of a Multi or such. This complaining is ruining the site and makes me want to leave and never play here again. Just give up already and stop complaining. You are whining like Mr. Burns stole your candy!

You have a grand total of 26 posts. No offense, but, what do you know about the fora and the people who actually spend some time here? Nothing. Yeah, you know nothing. This is not flaming you, this is stating the facts.

Several of those "bad apples" that you believe every banned person was, were to many others among the most interesting, entertaining, intelligent and witty posters on the site. Far from ruining the site they made it worthwhile to come back to the fora.
You are correct that the owner sets the policy, but the enforcement of the guidelines has proven to be inconsistent at best. In the early days some people would receive harsher punishments than others for equal offenses, this was pointed out, and the result was that the people who previously received shorter temporary bans got none at all while those who had received longer ones got the ones stated in the guidelines. This is also the current situation. People are even banned for "skirting the rules", not for breaking them, but for walking close to the line without crossing it.
The most recent fuckup was when an amendment of the guidelines that was to apply only to bigotry was expanded to ANY sort of misbehaviour. The result was that 6 offending posts of any kind could get you a permanent ban. There are people who have several thousand posts, I'd say that if you were to look you could easily find 6 posts that break or "skirt" the rules in some way for every forum regular.
Do you know why this is the case? You just need to look at the guidelines, the infractions are described in so broad terms that they can encompass practically anything. In fact, YOU broke the rules with your post, instead of meaningfully contributing to the ongoing discussion you went off-topic just to push your own opinion about how there are too people complaining down everyone else's throat.
Additionally you are flame-baiting and possibly flaming with your last paragraph, saying that we are whining is clearly belittling us and the paragraph is formulated in such a way as to elicit an angry response.
Goodness! You broke three rules with only one post. Now, do you see why we criticize the guidelines?
Furthermore, your opinion is wrong. You can't take the scoreboard to reflect the number of posters. There are not 10000 people on the fora, there are maybe 200 people who visit more or less regularly, and at most 100 who spend any significant amount of time reading and posting. Now, 30 out of 100, that's a rather significant portion, wouldn't you say? Especially when there are about 5 people out of the 100 on the other side with the occasional newcomer such as you chiming in from time to time.

You say our complaining makes you "want to leave and never play here again". You're joking, right? Have we carried this debate into your games? Have we spammed up the gamechats with endless discussions about flaws in the guidelines and in the way they are enforced? Have we in any way inconvenienced you and your 26 posts? I think not. The debate is now contained within Sugs&Bugs, there may be one thread in GD that resurfaces from time to time, but I think that one is quietly slipping down towards the bottom, page by page.

If you want to partake meaningfully in the debate, by all means, please do. Any sensible input is appreciated. But if you want to continue in the same manner, deriding those who want to help improve the site and not deal with the facts that are the reason for the "whining", do everyone a favour and just stay out of it.


We will have to keep rehashing the same old arguments until the administration finally listens to them.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby GENERAL STONEHAM on Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:45 am

TotoroHat wrote:In response to those posting about my reply, thank you. I do believe that we need people fighting for change.


Also, in South Africa, millions of people rose up to stop the injustice. Here, on CC, a few people are making trouble for the rest of us simply to make trouble. (Not all posters mind you but enough that I am sickened)!





On one side of your mouth you defend the right for change and from the other side you proclaim that you're sick of those who want change.

Why don't you step away from your computer and purge yourself. Then, hop and skip to another thread, " Land of Oz" and find yourself a brain.

Your thoughts on this subject makes me violently ill! You should be banned for hypocricy!

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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby owenshooter on Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:44 am

squishyg wrote:
TotoroHat wrote:I will defend persons right to be racist to the death


I'm trying really hard to give you the benefit of the doubt that you misrepresented yourself here. Really? Racist? To the death? :shock:

yeah, this was a very interesting statement... i can't believe he didn't catch it and edit it... even more shocked it hasn't gotten a "<mod edit>" by someone...-0
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby jpcloet on Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:47 am

This thread is now 48 days old. How about a decision Andy?
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:58 am

For now we will keep with the 6 Month Vacation as the Max for Minor Infractions. If in time, there is the need for change, we may adjust the Max for Minor Infractions.

However, we will not be commuting any vacations.

=======================

I encourage you to use/create a new topic for further Community Guidelines discussion, as this one has pretty much served its purpose.


--Andy
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby AAFitz on Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:18 pm

Im happy to see a little compromise here. Basically, you still retain the right to perma-ban, which of course is absolutely vital. 1 year, let alone 6 months is not long enough to stop someone who truly wants to spend their time sabotaging the site over and over.

But on the other hand, as long as the offences are small, and not overwhelmingly often, there can be a peace of mind, that no one who just breaks some rules all over the place, not so much maliciously, but by accident of time spent on the site, does not have to be banned just to follow protocol.

It of course still allows for reasonable banning as needed, and really gives the site more options, without reducing its power to keep things from getting out of hand.

I was wondering how this would end up. Pretty much a win-win, from any reasonable angle I think.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby owenshooter on Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:25 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:However, we will not be commuting any vacations.

everything is great but this bit here... i believe you said there are 12 or fewer members with perma-bans from the forums... i don't see why it isn't possible to re-examine these cases and give some of them lighter sentences... t-om comes to mind as well as DM and a few others... great move by team CC for the most part. but a very poor decision to not re-examine some of these perma-bans...-0
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby notyou2 on Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:35 pm

owenshooter wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:However, we will not be commuting any vacations.

everything is great but this bit here... i believe you said there are 12 or fewer members with perma-bans from the forums... i don't see why it isn't possible to re-examine these cases and give some of them lighter sentences... t-om comes to mind as well as DM and a few others... great move by team CC for the most part. but a very poor decision to not re-examine some of these perma-bans...-0


agreed
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby alex951 on Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:32 pm

one thing at a time
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby GENERAL STONEHAM on Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:17 am

notyou2 wrote:
owenshooter wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:However, we will not be commuting any vacations.

everything is great but this bit here... i believe you said there are 12 or fewer members with perma-bans from the forums... i don't see why it isn't possible to re-examine these cases and give some of them lighter sentences... t-om comes to mind as well as DM and a few others... great move by team CC for the most part. but a very poor decision to not re-examine some of these perma-bans...-0


agreed





agreed
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby MeDeFe on Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:00 am

GENERAL STONEHAM wrote:
notyou2 wrote:
owenshooter wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:However, we will not be commuting any vacations.

everything is great but this bit here... i believe you said there are 12 or fewer members with perma-bans from the forums... i don't see why it isn't possible to re-examine these cases and give some of them lighter sentences... t-om comes to mind as well as DM and a few others... great move by team CC for the most part. but a very poor decision to not re-examine some of these perma-bans...-0

agreed

agreed

I criticized it soundly when that decision was made, so I'll just agree again.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:03 pm

For the most part, many of you are referring to Dancing Mustard. It's a moot point anyways---he was busted for Multiple accounts (Dancing Mustard, mrwainthrope) weeks ago and both accounts are inactive.


--Andy
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby 72o on Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:06 pm

Wow. That was Dancing Mustard? I'm confused.
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby owenshooter on Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:13 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:For the most part, many of you are referring to Dancing Mustard. It's a moot point anyways---he was busted for Multiple accounts (Dancing Mustard, mrwainthrope) weeks ago and both accounts are inactive.


--Andy

t-o-m was also mentioned... if his maps are good enough to have on the site, i don't understand why he can't have his perma-ban re-evaluated...-0
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Re: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

Postby notyou2 on Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:16 pm

Umm....haven't some that have been multis been reinstated?
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