[Rules] [GP] Neutralize Territories if team member is kicked

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Postby Ishiro on Thu May 03, 2007 8:44 am

You can have way more than 5 cards... you could play a triples game, and two players deadbeat with 5 cards. Player 1 deadbeats and his cards go to player 2, then player 2 deadbeats and his cards go to player 3 who ended his previous turn with 5 cards. Player three comes back and has 15 cards. Possible, yes... likely, not really.

You could even have more cards if people were to defeat other players, then wait for turn expiration instead of cashing in... I think the theoretical maximum would be 23 cards. Triples game, Player 1 had 4 cards, defeats Player 4 and gets 5 cards, times out instead of cashing in... then Player 2 who also had 4 cards defeats player 5 and gets 5 cards, times out. Then players 1 and 2 deadbeat, if player 3 ended his previous turn with 5 cards, he would get player 1's 9 cards and player 2's 9 cards... 9+9+5 = 23.

That, of course, would never happen unless people forced it to happen.
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Re: Deadbeats in triples

Postby chessmaniac777 on Thu May 03, 2007 6:58 pm

Forza AZ wrote:
Smurf75 wrote:Im currently playing a triple and got a little curious about one thing. When third player deadbeated and was kicked out the first player in their team got all his troops and all his cards. Shouldnt it be divided amongst the two remaining players in their team?

No, it always goed to the first player. I think dividing it is more difficult to program(?)


dividing isn't very hard to program...even a high schooler can program that

yeah, sometimes it does piss ppl off when only the highest person gets everything, but hey, what are you going to do about it?
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[Rules] Neutralize Territories if team member is kicked

Postby doliver on Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:47 pm

MOD EDIT: There have been at least a few suggestions on how to deal with the perceived problem of users who get kicked out of team games and what to do with their spoils, troops and territories. While none of the following three suggestions are entirely clear on the mechanics of what the solution to this problem should be, they all derive from the same source and arrive at similar conclusions.

The following three suggestions have been MERGED and REJECTED.

12/28/2006: zorba_ca suggests we should modify the rule to neutralize terrirtories only in No Spoils games

12/8/2009: Fridayknight says that we should "have a look" at the the deadbeat problem.

5/30/11 gumby7524 says that when a teammate deadbeats the rest of the team "should suffer as much as the other teams have suffered"

11/4/12: chewie1 says that in the case of a deadbeat or rules violation that it "become like in terminator games where cards and territs are still up for grabs ... or just become straight neutrals"

The current system that is in place attempts to not punish innocent victims of the deadbeating or rules violations whether they be teammates or opponents of the deadbeat or violator. If someone is taking advantage of these rules, then you are free to fill out a Cheating and Abuse Report to address the problem. But for now, the rarity of the perceived problem and the amount of effort that would go in to "fixing" it means that it's not likely that this system will change.

As yeti_c points out:

yeti_c wrote:
If you can't kill of a team that is only playing half of the time in 3 goes - then you shouldn't bother playing... or you were going to lose anyway.

C.


But perhaps there is a solution to be found here:

1/15/10: karelpietertje says that in the case of a rules violation, the teammates should simply take over and "play for the busted player"

Unlike the first three mentioned suggestions, Karel's suggestion has been Submitted and is probably the only avenue that is likely to be taken by CC.

If you see any other suggestions that should be merged here, please post in the thread or inform a moderator. Thanks, as always, for reading --agentcom


Per new policy, suggestions involving splitting deadbeat territories between remaining teammates as well as those suggesting current policy (giving deadbeat territories to the player furthest behind in troops) have been merged into this thread.This policy has been changed multiple times over the years, and the threads often discuss the pros and cons of both sides.
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Partner Play

Postby bchvball on Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:45 pm

Can a moderator answer this for me? Why in a doubles game when a player is kicked out for missing turn does his armies become that of his partner and not neutral? The team should not be rewarded for deadbeating. In close games where all teams are equal, this action can give one team a huge advantage.
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Postby Night Strike on Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:54 pm

It was put in place to help protect the player who has a random person join on his team but then deadbeat.

The true question (and what could probably be fairly debated) would be if it's still necessary since new recruits aren't allowed to play team games.
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Postby AAFitz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:42 pm

the best solution would be if the other person could simply take the turn of that person...but im pretty sure thats complicated
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Postby Arbotross on Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:25 pm

they are already penalized, by deadbeating they miss 3 turns of troops and chances to attack and such, and beyond that they miss about 3 armies a turn
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Postby DaGip on Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:38 pm

Night Strike wrote:It was put in place to help protect the player who has a random person join on his team but then deadbeat.

The true question (and what could probably be fairly debated) would be if it's still necessary since new recruits aren't allowed to play team games.


When I first started, I joined a dubls game and didn't even realize it. I attacked the shit out of my partner! Funny he didn't say anything to me about it?

http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?gam ... full_log=Y

I was such a n00b!

I was even trying to talk to Gigfood while in team chat and didn't even realize it! CC was a big big world and I was but an ignorant child.
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Postby superkarn on Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:08 am

AAFitz wrote:the best solution would be if the other person could simply take the turn of that person...but im pretty sure thats complicated

If you like that idea, check this thread out: 2-player "team" games.
It's about a new game type that is similar to what you suggested (1 player playing multiple colors).
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booted teammate shouldn't be reward

Postby jenkin on Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:09 pm

While playing a close doubles match with three teams. two teams had one player left and one had both. One of the players from the team with two players was booted for missing too many turns. that is a good device to have. What was bad was when his territories and his cards went to his teammate. Giving him a clear advantage over the rest of the players at a very important part of the game, essentially ending it and winning it for him.
I suggest that all assets of players booted for missing too many turns should turn neutral rather than become the teams. I understand that it is annoying to have a bad teammate, but that is part of risk playing with a random team.

Thank You.


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Re: booted teammate shouldn't be reward

Postby owenshooter on Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:03 pm

this was just added recently, and i doubt they will go back to changing the booted players armies into neutrals. it is the fault of all of you in the game for not attacking the player missing turns and limiting his numbers. in the rules, it states that his armies will become his teammates, so why weren't you all taking care of what was the obvious problem. sounds like bad play to me, not a bad rule.-0
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Re: booted teammate shouldn't be reward

Postby Keebs2674 on Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:30 pm

I think the rules should stay as they are.

However, I don't know what the rules are as far as point distribution at the end are. I think if your teamate(s) deadbeat and you go on to win the game, the deadbeats shouldn't get any points. Again, I don't know whether this is the case already or not (hopefully it is). Deadbeats are lame.
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Re: booted teammate shouldn't be reward

Postby jenkin on Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:56 am

the armies going to the teammate I don't have a problem with it's the spoils, the cards that can give an unfair advantage to that team.
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Re: booted teammate shouldn't be reward

Postby rishaed on Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:20 am

i had a game sorta like this and the thing is you have three turns to wipe him or his teamate gets everything...sometimes you just don't have enough troops or time to wipe him.
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[Rules] Neutralize Territories if team member is kicked

Postby Fridayknight on Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:42 am

MOD EDIT: There have been at least a few suggestions on how to deal with the perceived problem of users who get kicked out of team games and what to do with their spoils, troops and territories. While none of the following three suggestions are entirely clear on the mechanics of what the solution to this problem should be, they all derive from the same source and arrive at similar conclusions.

The following three suggestions have been MERGED and REJECTED.

12/8/2009: Fridayknight says that we should "have a look" at the the deadbeat problem.

5/30/11 gumby7524 says that when a teammate deadbeats the rest of the team "should suffer as much as the other teams have suffered"

11/4/12: chewie1 says that in the case of a deadbeat or rules violation that it "become like in terminator games where [cards and territs are still up fo[r] grabs ... or just become straight neutrals"

The current system that is in place attempts to not punish innocent victims of the deadbeating or rules violations whether they be teammates or opponents of the deadbeat or violator. If someone is taking advantage of these rules, then you are free to fill out a Cheating and Abuse Report to address the problem. But for now, the rarity of the perceived problem and the amount of effort that would go in to "fixing" it means that it's not likely that this system will change.

As yeti_c points out:

yeti_c wrote:
If you can't kill of a team that is only playing half of the time in 3 goes - then you shouldn't bother playing... or you were going to lose anyway.

C.


But perhaps there is a solution to be found here:

1/15/10: karelpietertje says that in the case of a rules violation, the teammates should simply take over and "play[] for the busted player"

Unlike the first three mentioned suggestions, Karel's suggestion has been Submitted and is probably the only avenue that is likely to be taken by CC.

If you see any other suggestions that should be merged here, please post in the thread or inform a moderator. Thanks, as always, for reading --agentcom]


Concise description:
    I've encountered a couple of instances where I've played in games where one team is clearly about to lose but because of a technicality in the game it works out to be a great benefit for one of the teams. One of the team members in a doubles match is kicked for missing too many turns but his teammate gains all his spoils and territories? Seems hardly fair and a very cheap tactic for someone to tip the scales in their favor.

Specifics:
    For instance in Game 5840836. My teammate and I were on the verge of victory and only had to eliminate one player since his teammate was about to be kicked for missing too many turns. He had about 3 territories left at the time. I didn't realize this at the time but he inherited all his partners territories and then was able to run the table with the spoils and bonuses and win the game the very next turn.

    Game 5815723

    Once again... a poor player being rewarded for his teammates lack of play. The blue player has inherited quite a bit and in my opinion would've been wiped out in the near future if this was not part of the game. Now he's sitting pretty and can pretty much run the gambit with his re-enforcements that he'll be getting.

Please have a look into this and let me know what, if anything is being done.

Thanks in advance
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Re: Suggestion: Territories go neutral if team member is kicked

Postby TheForgivenOne on Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:25 am

Yeah, but take into account, when multi's are kicked out. I was in a quads game, round 2, when all 3 of my parters were kicked out for being multi's, making it 4v1. So how is it exactly fair to me? I barely managed to win the game. If your rule was applied, then it makes unfair to those who lose their partner(s) to violating the rules. Because i got stuck with a dumbass, i lose points automatically, having no chance at all. It would be as if i was in a 5 way ffa, and my 4 opponents teamed up on me at a very early stage of the game.
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Re: Suggestion: Territories go neutral if team member is kicked

Postby TheScarecrow on Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:34 am

its rather unfair on the player you mentioned. is it HIS/HER fault the other player got kicked out?

why should that player who is left alone be faced against a team of two players with only half the territories?

for 3 whole turns his/her team was not getting their full complement of armies - that is punishment enough.

i am also somewhat amazed. this happened to you before and you had not learned anything? :roll: break the bonus(es) of the player about to be kicked as well as those auto-deploy territories.

you are also forgetting that when his/her team mate is being kicked he/she loses the 3 armies/turn automatic deploy.


the whole point is:

Why should Player A be punished because his team mate Player B missed 3 turns?
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Re: Suggestion: Territories go neutral if team member is kicked

Postby jammyjames on Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:55 am

TheForgivenOne wrote:Yeah, but take into account, when multi's are kicked out. I was in a quads game, round 2, when all 3 of my parters were kicked out for being multi's, making it 4v1. So how is it exactly fair to me? I barely managed to win the game. If your rule was applied, then it makes unfair to those who lose their partner(s) to violating the rules. Because i got stuck with a dumbass, i lose points automatically, having no chance at all. It would be as if i was in a 5 way ffa, and my 4 opponents teamed up on me at a very early stage of the game.



dont get a retarded team that will all be kicked out then... i preferred it the way it used to be.. if a teamate was kicked they went neutral... it becomes a huge advantage in some games when a teamate is kicked...
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Re: Suggestion: Territories go neutral if team member is kicked

Postby Fridayknight on Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:25 pm

TheForgivenOne wrote:Yeah, but take into account, when multi's are kicked out. I was in a quads game, round 2, when all 3 of my parters were kicked out for being multi's, making it 4v1. So how is it exactly fair to me? I barely managed to win the game. If your rule was applied, then it makes unfair to those who lose their partner(s) to violating the rules. Because i got stuck with a dumbass, i lose points automatically, having no chance at all. It would be as if i was in a 5 way ffa, and my 4 opponents teamed up on me at a very early stage of the game.


That is an extreme example of how it would work against you and highly unlikely to happen all that often.

My point is why should you get all your teammate's territories and spoils? You did nothing to earn them. Those on the opposing team(s) lose a lot by rolling the dice, losing troops and putting you into those positions. Because your teammate(s) cannot fulfill their end of the bargain should not validate why you should be awarded for their incompetence. I'm saying turn all the territories into neutral territories and no one gets them.
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Re: Suggestion: Territories go neutral if team member is kicked

Postby Fridayknight on Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:27 pm

TheScarecrow wrote:its rather unfair on the player you mentioned. is it HIS/HER fault the other player got kicked out?

why should that player who is left alone be faced against a team of two players with only half the territories?

for 3 whole turns his/her team was not getting their full complement of armies - that is punishment enough.

i am also somewhat amazed. this happened to you before and you had not learned anything? :roll: break the bonus(es) of the player about to be kicked as well as those auto-deploy territories.

you are also forgetting that when his/her team mate is being kicked he/she loses the 3 armies/turn automatic deploy.


the whole point is:

Why should Player A be punished because his team mate Player B missed 3 turns?


Read my previous post...
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Re: Suggestion: Territories go neutral if team member is kicked

Postby The Neon Peon on Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:41 pm

Pretty much you are saying, is if you have a crappy teammate that doesn't take his turns, your team should lose. That is basically what this suggestion is.

The only time it benefits to have this happen is in the only example you gave: your team goes for a kill, then that person inherits the territories of the deadbeat.

In all other cases
- the other team now has back to back turns.
- if the person that deatbeated had less than 9 territories, the team now earns less troops
- if the person who received the territories had less than 9 territories, the team now earns less troops
- the team already lost at least 9 troops because the person was not taking their turns to deploy them
- all the armies of the deatbeat were useless for 3 rounds and never attacked anything
- the team has been playing with one less player for 3 rounds before receiving any compensation for it
- etc. etc.

Having a teammate that deadbeats is terrible. You lose a whole lot of initiative and your chances at winning the game are far slimmer, you have to rely on the other team being bad or having good dice. The rules are this way so that the team might actually have a chance at winning.
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Re: Suggestion: Territories go neutral if team member is kicked

Postby TheForgivenOne on Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:32 am

jammyjames wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:Yeah, but take into account, when multi's are kicked out. I was in a quads game, round 2, when all 3 of my parters were kicked out for being multi's, making it 4v1. So how is it exactly fair to me? I barely managed to win the game. If your rule was applied, then it makes unfair to those who lose their partner(s) to violating the rules. Because i got stuck with a dumbass, i lose points automatically, having no chance at all. It would be as if i was in a 5 way ffa, and my 4 opponents teamed up on me at a very early stage of the game.



dont get a retarded team that will all be kicked out then... i preferred it the way it used to be.. if a teamate was kicked they went neutral... it becomes a huge advantage in some games when a teamate is kicked...


lmao thanks james, because i totally meant to pick a retard. That was my goal in that game. Even though not really my fault, because he joined my team. When i first joined the game, it was a Cadet on Team 1, and nobody on team 2. I joined team 2. Team 1 filled up late at night, and i had no parters. I wake up, the game has started. So it's not really my fault at all now is it? I actually felt like the game should be stricken from the records, and no points are gained/lost in that extreme situation. but thats just me
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Re: Suggestion: Territories go neutral if team member is kicked

Postby Choco on Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:37 pm

If you lose your partner and all his territories your chance to win the game goes from bad to almost impossible. You've already lost 9 armies on the behalf of your partner, if you lose all other territories to neutrals not only do you lose friendly armies, you gain blockers on the bonuses you want.

This is an unfair suggestion, and only helps out the opposition.
CC is not about making it easy for higher ranked players or players that get "lucky" and get a partner that gets kicked - it's about being as fair as possible to all participants.

So, a tip to you that complain - kill territories of players that are missing turns in team games. This is the only way to kill the "advantage", and it's completely fair.
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Re: Suggestion: Territories go neutral if team member is kicked

Postby max is gr8 on Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:48 pm

Anyway it used to be like this. Because of such there will be no U-Turn, like with the double turn freestyles. It was originally an option then it was eradicated step by step.

Consider this the deadbeat version of surrender
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Re: Suggestion: Territories go neutral if team member is kicked

Postby stahrgazer on Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:59 pm

I think a happy medium would benefit; a change so that only a random half of the kicked player's terrs go to other teammates. That gives someone whose teammate deadbeats at least a fighting chance, while minimizing the temptation for a teammate to deadbeat so the team can win the game.
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