Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

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Re: Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

Postby lord voldemort on Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:20 pm

so then the 500 games of douche baggery doesnt count at all...
its like a drivers license...
in australia you get 12 demerit points before you lose it.
What your saying is that i being 21 could lose 10 of them...being the hoon driver that i am...I suddenly have a change of heart and now i should get those back?
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Re: Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

Postby Queen_Herpes on Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:38 pm

lord voldemort wrote:so then the 500 games of douche baggery doesnt count at all...
its like a drivers license...
in australia you get 12 demerit points before you lose it.
What your saying is that i being 21 could lose 10 of them...being the hoon driver that i am...I suddenly have a change of heart and now i should get those back?


Hey, I dislike a douchebag just like you. However, here in California, the points on your license expire after 3 years and are premanently removed after 5 years. Everyone deserves a second chance.

If a player makes a change of heart or a change of ability or a change of "fairness" I think the player should benefit from their newfound greatness, positivity or level-headedness.

More importantly, a player who gets one or more unfair ratings from players who (for whatever reason gave a low rating when it was undeserved) can have solace in knowing that the unfair rating will eventually get wiped away with time or with new ratings received.

For me, when I look to join a game, I look at that average rating next to a player's name. If it is low, I don't join. Those players may miss out on games. I don't have time to look at all of their ratings to see if they only have 50 ratings and 10 of them came low and undeserved.

On the other hand, if a player was being a saint and playing really well, then decided to go apesh*t as a new way of living, that shoudl be reflected in their *current* modus operandi found in their rating.
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Re: Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

Postby danes on Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:59 am

What if you played thousands of games, never missed a turn then got sick and went to the hospital for a week or something and timed out 100 games? would you deserve for your rating to go from 4.9 or whatever to 1?

With only a few ratings being kept, each rating effects your average much more. If you have 20 pages of ratings, someone giving you all 1's for no reason wont even effect your average. With 100 ratings, a few people giving you 1's could destroy your overall rating. It would be like being a new player again, when every rating effected your score.

I'm content with being 4.8-4.9, it doesn't bother me that not everyone likes me, i don't like everyone either :P
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Re: Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

Postby Queen_Herpes on Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:30 pm

danes wrote:What if you played thousands of games, never missed a turn then got sick and went to the hospital for a week or something and timed out 100 games? would you deserve for your rating to go from 4.9 or whatever to 1?

With only a few ratings being kept, each rating effects your average much more. If you have 20 pages of ratings, someone giving you all 1's for no reason wont even effect your average. With 100 ratings, a few people giving you 1's could destroy your overall rating. It would be like being a new player again, when every rating effected your score.

I'm content with being 4.8-4.9, it doesn't bother me that not everyone likes me, i don't like everyone either :P


Or...what if you WON thousands of games, acted appropriately, played fairly and (by default) played well BUT received hundreds of negative ratings and tags simply because you WON? Unless you send hundreds of PMs out to request the offending players remove the ratings, they stay on there - FOREVER. And enough players read them. I've talked with players who rate based on how other players have rated a player - regardless of what took place in the game(s). I've talked with players who have rated other players down simply because of mood or dice. Then there are the raters who consistently rate everyone down, and the raters who rate you down in every category simply because of rude game chat. The list goes on and on. Because ratings are so tied to a subjective "emotion of the moment" and less tied to an objective review of performance in the three categories, it seems the fair thing to do to have ratings expire over time.

Your post objects to 100 ratings. Fine. Make the ratings expire after 3 months. Seems like a sufficiently long enough period of time. I can see, however, where freemiums would not have many ratings over a 3 month course, so, perhaps freemiums would need to have a fill box of 100 ratings...OR...something else. But something needs to change. Either they expire with time, expire once replaced in the fill box, or some combination of the two.

In no way is it fair to maintain ratings from players who were guested or banned for any reason, warned or otherwise punished for ratings abuse, or who simply rated down in three categories because they lost the game. (and for that matter players who simply give 15 stars in every game, those ratings aren't very fair either.)
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Re: Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

Postby Jatekos on Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:56 am

I don't think that ratings should expire or be deleted after any number of games.

The more ratings received the more accurately they represent the attributes of the given player, because of the larger sample*. It is true that improving low ratings can be more difficult if they are kept in the system and will not expire. Still, I think maintaining a historical record provides additional information, and should not be deleted.

*Even if the last player on the scoreboard has a 4.5 (= half-way between 'above average' and 'excellent') rating on gameplay. :D
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Re: Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

Postby pmchugh on Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:32 am

Jatekos wrote:I don't think that ratings should expire or be deleted after any number of games.

The more ratings received the more accurately they represent the attributes of the given player, because of the larger sample. It is true that improving low ratings can be more difficult if they are kept in the system and will not expire. Still, I think maintaining a historical record provides additional information, and should not be deleted.
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Re: Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

Postby Queen_Herpes on Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:02 pm

pmchugh wrote:
Jatekos wrote:I don't think that ratings should expire or be deleted after any number of games.

The more ratings received the more accurately they represent the attributes of the given player, because of the larger sample. It is true that improving low ratings can be more difficult if they are kept in the system and will not expire. Still, I think maintaining a historical record provides additional information, and should not be deleted.


Both of you are discounting the effect that negative ratings (mproperly received) have a huge weight upon freemiums and players who do not play a lot of games.
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Re: Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

Postby Jatekos on Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:23 pm

Queen_Herpes wrote:
pmchugh wrote:
Jatekos wrote:I don't think that ratings should expire or be deleted after any number of games.

The more ratings received the more accurately they represent the attributes of the given player, because of the larger sample. It is true that improving low ratings can be more difficult if they are kept in the system and will not expire. Still, I think maintaining a historical record provides additional information, and should not be deleted.


Both of you are discounting the effect that negative ratings (mproperly received) have a huge weight upon freemiums and players who do not play a lot of games.

I myself am a freemium playing 4 games at a time. I also receive ratings that I find improper, but I don't think that they mean such a huge burden.
Everyone has the opportunity to respond to improper ratings. Also, there are hundreds of games to choose from when you start / join a game, so it is very unlikely that someone will not be able to play because of his / her ratings.
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Re: Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

Postby Queen_Herpes on Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:46 pm

Jatekos wrote:
Queen_Herpes wrote:
pmchugh wrote:
Jatekos wrote:I don't think that ratings should expire or be deleted after any number of games.

The more ratings received the more accurately they represent the attributes of the given player, because of the larger sample. It is true that improving low ratings can be more difficult if they are kept in the system and will not expire. Still, I think maintaining a historical record provides additional information, and should not be deleted.


Both of you are discounting the effect that negative ratings (mproperly received) have a huge weight upon freemiums and players who do not play a lot of games.

I myself am a freemium playing 4 games at a time. I also receive ratings that I find improper, but I don't think that they mean such a huge burden.
Everyone has the opportunity to respond to improper ratings. Also, there are hundreds of games to choose from when you start / join a game, so it is very unlikely that someone will not be able to play because of his / her ratings.


Unfortunately, you're way off. There are more improper ratings than you would expect and it hits players where they live. When I'm searching for games, I tend to avoid those against players with really low ratings. Other players do the same thing. These days, "really low" means anything below 4.5 So, there is a huge impact. Some of hte clans out there only accept players if their rating average is above a certain average. So, yes, impact there as well.
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Re: Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

Postby Jatekos on Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:39 am

Queen_Herpes wrote:Unfortunately, you're way off. There are more improper ratings than you would expect and it hits players where they live. When I'm searching for games, I tend to avoid those against players with really low ratings. Other players do the same thing. These days, "really low" means anything below 4.5 So, there is a huge impact. Some of hte clans out there only accept players if their rating average is above a certain average. So, yes, impact there as well.

As I said earlier, the more ratings the better. In a larger sample even the most improper ratings will even out. It is much more possible that a couple of extreme cases will decrease the average of a smaller sample, simply because each rating weights more.
As for clans and individuals avoiding players with low ratings, I think they deserve the right to do that, and they probably do that for a reason. There are other clans / games to join. We could argue about what a 'really low' rating is, but that would be off topic.
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Re: Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

Postby Queen_Herpes on Sun Jun 27, 2010 10:04 am

Jatekos wrote:
Queen_Herpes wrote:Unfortunately, you're way off. There are more improper ratings than you would expect and it hits players where they live. When I'm searching for games, I tend to avoid those against players with really low ratings. Other players do the same thing. These days, "really low" means anything below 4.5 So, there is a huge impact. Some of hte clans out there only accept players if their rating average is above a certain average. So, yes, impact there as well.

As I said earlier, the more ratings the better. In a larger sample even the most improper ratings will even out. It is much more possible that a couple of extreme cases will decrease the average of a smaller sample, simply because each rating weights more.
As for clans and individuals avoiding players with low ratings, I think they deserve the right to do that, and they probably do that for a reason. There are other clans / games to join. We could argue about what a 'really low' rating is, but that would be off topic.


The larger sample cannot happen for a new recruit, a freemium who plays one game per month, or other players who do not play very often. Not every player creates a rating for their opponent(s). However, the players who get upset about dice, upset about a loss, etc., seem to rate more often. Sure, for a plyer who plays 2000 games in a year, 50 unfair ratings will not have a noticeable effect, assuming the remaining 1950 players actually create a positive or fair rating of the player.

The rating system is skewed towards those players who are bothered (for whatever reason) by an opponent. In real life, a person who is upset about a company or a product is more likely to fill out a comment card or contact customer care to file a complaint compared to a person who has a great experience. Similarly, data shows that a person who has a bad experience with a company or product is more likely to tell 4 or more friends about the bad experience than a person who has a good experience (who is more likely to tell no one about the good experience). Because at conquerclub players are not required to create a rating AND the process of rating requires pointing and clicking several times before returning to the games or forums, a player who had a good enough time in a game is not very likely to fill out a rating. (Unless he or she is aiming for the ratings medal.) Just take a look at players who have received the ratings gold medal and compare the number of ratings they have given prior to receiving ratings gold and the rate, percentage and number of ratings given after receiving ratings gold.

I am not trying to silence any one or many individuals in their "opinions" about a player or players, but I am attempting to weight out the positive and negative ratings that no longer have a bearing on a player's current playing style and experience.
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Re: Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

Postby TheForgivenOne on Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:55 pm

Hmm. here's my two cents.

Okay, for the player that "players 1 game a month" Well, with the 3 months+ then removed sugg, they would only have about 3 ratings... And for the 100 ratings then they start disappearing, Well, they would have to be here for about 2 years before ratings start disappearing.

Now, lets go away from that. No matter how many you set it to, people are still going to rate you poorly. Say you have a 4.7 rating, and a 1 star rating goes *poof*. And gets replaced with a 5 Star. Well, sooner or later, you are going to hit a streak of poor ratings. I've done it, and I've seen it happen to me. All this suggestion, is going to make you rating fluctuate. It could go from that 4.7, up to a 4.9 :D. Then easily drop right down to a 4.4 :(.
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Re: Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

Postby Queen_Herpes on Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:53 am

TheForgivenOne wrote:Hmm. here's my two cents.

Okay, for the player that "players 1 game a month" Well, with the 3 months+ then removed sugg, they would only have about 3 ratings... And for the 100 ratings then they start disappearing, Well, they would have to be here for about 2 years before ratings start disappearing.

Now, lets go away from that. No matter how many you set it to, people are still going to rate you poorly. Say you have a 4.7 rating, and a 1 star rating goes *poof*. And gets replaced with a 5 Star. Well, sooner or later, you are going to hit a streak of poor ratings. I've done it, and I've seen it happen to me. All this suggestion, is going to make you rating fluctuate. It could go from that 4.7, up to a 4.9 :D. Then easily drop right down to a 4.4 :(.


But, ultimately, the false positives and false negatives will drop off. The streaks drop off. The streaks you leave for others drop off. I think it is a grand reference to look at a players last 100 ratings received to get a good picture of who they are as a player. I think the fill zone should be set at 100. It tells ohter players what kind of player you've been for the last 100 games.
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Re: Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

Postby TheForgivenOne on Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:16 am

Queen_Herpes wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:Hmm. here's my two cents.

Okay, for the player that "players 1 game a month" Well, with the 3 months+ then removed sugg, they would only have about 3 ratings... And for the 100 ratings then they start disappearing, Well, they would have to be here for about 2 years before ratings start disappearing.

Now, lets go away from that. No matter how many you set it to, people are still going to rate you poorly. Say you have a 4.7 rating, and a 1 star rating goes *poof*. And gets replaced with a 5 Star. Well, sooner or later, you are going to hit a streak of poor ratings. I've done it, and I've seen it happen to me. All this suggestion, is going to make you rating fluctuate. It could go from that 4.7, up to a 4.9 :D. Then easily drop right down to a 4.4 :(.


But, ultimately, the false positives and false negatives will drop off. The streaks drop off. The streaks you leave for others drop off. I think it is a grand reference to look at a players last 100 ratings received to get a good picture of who they are as a player. I think the fill zone should be set at 100. It tells ohter players what kind of player you've been for the last 100 games.


The streaks may drop off, but they will be replaced by new ones. You may even run into a horrible run, and have your rating drop way below 4.0. This would hurt clans also, who use the Rating. "If you don't have a 4.7, you aren't allowed in." Well, what happens if when you truly are a person who deserves a 4.4, but instead of hitting a nice streak of ratings, you end up getting into the clan, instead of someone who actually deserved it.
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Re: Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

Postby Queen_Herpes on Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:22 am

TheForgivenOne wrote:
Queen_Herpes wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:Hmm. here's my two cents.

Okay, for the player that "players 1 game a month" Well, with the 3 months+ then removed sugg, they would only have about 3 ratings... And for the 100 ratings then they start disappearing, Well, they would have to be here for about 2 years before ratings start disappearing.

Now, lets go away from that. No matter how many you set it to, people are still going to rate you poorly. Say you have a 4.7 rating, and a 1 star rating goes *poof*. And gets replaced with a 5 Star. Well, sooner or later, you are going to hit a streak of poor ratings. I've done it, and I've seen it happen to me. All this suggestion, is going to make you rating fluctuate. It could go from that 4.7, up to a 4.9 :D. Then easily drop right down to a 4.4 :(.


But, ultimately, the false positives and false negatives will drop off. The streaks drop off. The streaks you leave for others drop off. I think it is a grand reference to look at a players last 100 ratings received to get a good picture of who they are as a player. I think the fill zone should be set at 100. It tells ohter players what kind of player you've been for the last 100 games.


The streaks may drop off, but they will be replaced by new ones. You may even run into a horrible run, and have your rating drop way below 4.0. This would hurt clans also, who use the Rating. "If you don't have a 4.7, you aren't allowed in." Well, what happens if when you truly are a person who deserves a 4.4, but instead of hitting a nice streak of ratings, you end up getting into the clan, instead of someone who actually deserved it.


Perhaps the clan should be a little better at screening, then? I don't know, maybe vet beyond the ratings average? I was recruited into a clan that required a rating average higher than what I held at that time. The clan member who recruited me looked at the games where I received a low rating and reported to me that he had reviewed my low ratings games and determined that I got down rated because of some poor sports and complainers, but nev er because I deserved to be rated down. On the basis of this and a few competition games against me and with me, I was invited into the clan. Now, that is just one case. As to your question: "what happens if a clan is considering two players and takes one over the other based solely on ratings average?" I woul dhave to say that the criterion and the vetting process for that clan are pretty weak. That being said, it will be easier for someone vetting a potential clan member to review 100 ratings instead of 2000 ratings. So, my suggestion will help streamline things a bit.
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Re: Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

Postby squishyg on Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:25 am

i vote no ratings at all. they are bs anyway. mostly everyone are teenagers and they can't be trusted for hormonally balanced responses that stay on your record.
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Re: Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

Postby Bruceswar on Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:07 pm

pmchugh wrote:
Jatekos wrote:I don't think that ratings should expire or be deleted after any number of games.

The more ratings received the more accurately they represent the attributes of the given player, because of the larger sample. It is true that improving low ratings can be more difficult if they are kept in the system and will not expire. Still, I think maintaining a historical record provides additional information, and should not be deleted.



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Re: Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

Postby Queen_Herpes on Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:20 am

Bruceswar wrote:
pmchugh wrote:
Jatekos wrote:I don't think that ratings should expire or be deleted after any number of games.

The more ratings received the more accurately they represent the attributes of the given player, because of the larger sample. It is true that improving low ratings can be more difficult if they are kept in the system and will not expire. Still, I think maintaining a historical record provides additional information, and should not be deleted.



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Bruceswar, I think you are hardly in the position to support pcmchugh and Jatekos' comments. You are a society instructor and, as such, you are in hundreds of games with society members. You are, by virtue, being helpful and kind in those games and verily should be free from negative ratings from those members. Certainly those members could rate you down, but I doubt that any of them ever would do that. The weight of yours and other Society Volunteers ratings received is skewed based on ratings from players you teach directly in a game.

In addition, you've played over 5000 games, which further skews your rating. I think you should look at it fromt he perspective of the casual player or the player who has played less than 1000 games. Terrible ratings skew the newer or less frequent member's average rating.
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Re: Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

Postby Queen_Herpes on Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:28 am

edwinissweet wrote:i like the one where after a set number or raitings the old ones to be "washed out" its kind of like your second chance. Its a good way to show that you've reformed


Good point! Nice way for a new player to avoid getting hammered by unfair low ratings.
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Re: Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

Postby AAFitz on Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:04 am

Actually, this would only allow players like herpes to hide the fact that she was very unsportsmanlike in her earlier days, and quite frankly its very clear this entire suggestion is only to improve her own ratings.

I do however, agree that new players should be shielded from negative results from early ratings, because it can unfairly tarnish them. I believe if the suggestion is changed, to simply ignore the first 3 months of ratings, than the system will work more fairly.

If ratings are ignored, than they will fail to represent the true character of the player, because their past will be wiped clean. As it stands now, the ratings are very effective in predicting the behavior of every player. The only ones negatively punished are the newest players, who I myself have suggested protecting a number of times.

This suggestion however is to have the opposite effect, of protecting the ones that caused problems in games in the first place, and the very people the ratings were meant to warn us of in the first place.
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Re: Give Ratings a Lifetime or Fill Zone

Postby Queen_Herpes on Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:00 am

JoshyBoy wrote:I echo the sentiments of these guys. I miss feedback. I would like to see it back. CC could appoint a whole team just to take care of the "issues" which would arise from feedback being left.

However, we must stay on topic. :)


feedback is still there...in the response to the rating section...
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