Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferring'

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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:22 pm

MrBenn wrote:However, at the moment it is a valid strategy (albeit one that could be seen as 'cheap') to avoid collecting a card in nukes (or even to delay cashing in a set of them mid-turn to avoid wiping yourself or a partner out).


It's only valid because it's allowed. I think OP's point is that since such tactics are indeed cheap, we should insert code to make them impossible.

I can see less of a reason why you would want to use it in an escalating game though?


It can make sense in many circumstances. If every player has 4 cards and it's your turn, if you get a card it most likely means that you're going to cash the first set, making your set worth at least 11 less troops than the player who goes right before you. If you hold off on cashing, you aren't forced to turn in the least valuable set.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby natty dread on Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:02 am

Yeah no one wants to cash the first set.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby eddie2 on Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:44 am

the whole point of this is why should players get 2 attack and not cash there are players that do this validly by just deploying then ending there shot. and others who attack then just time out. abusing the system.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby amazzony on Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:38 am

Sounds fair, at least as much as I understand it O:) Going into details ain't my kind of thing but the overall idea is something that needs to get done to remove another way how to abuse the game.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Darwins_Bane on Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:19 pm

yes but the you would have a different type of abuse to consider. what happens if 5 players have 5 cards each in escalating? you can't just force them to take a card. how do you make them cash? do you cash for them? what order of cashing is fair since the comp does it all?
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby tkr4lf on Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:47 am

Darwins_Bane wrote:yes but the you would have a different type of abuse to consider. what happens if 5 players have 5 cards each in escalating? you can't just force them to take a card. how do you make them cash? do you cash for them? what order of cashing is fair since the comp does it all?

I believe the game forces you to cash in spoils if you have 5 of them. I could be wrong on this, but I think I am correct.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby wolfpack0530 on Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:51 am

Benn, no way in hell that is a valid strategy!!! When your turn ends, you get a goddamn card!! period. the fact that CC would even allow this loophole to exist and be exploited is detestable and makes CC look like it accepts cheating or in this case quasi-cheating (not all game choices give this strategy and unfair advantage, which is the term i am using to define cheating in this case).

The fact that CC still wont change it, knowing this, makes them look like cowards.

and those that still defend this with talking points are looking like mindless lackey fools

whatever happened to: just do what is right and fair?? does CC even care about fair anymore??? CC backing the current dice would suggest they dont at all, this is just another example.

make this suggestion happen!!
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Darwins_Bane on Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:03 pm

saying that something should be stopped is all well and good, but there has been no real suggestion on what should be done to replace the current system. And before going off like you did, why don't you read my previous post about the consequences of implementing this suggestion. Don't get me wrong, when someone lets time run out to get a better cash or not take a card, i foe them.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:39 pm

Darwins_Bane wrote:saying that something should be stopped is all well and good, but there has been no real suggestion on what should be done to replace the current system.


Sure there has been. It's in the first post of this thread.

And before going off like you did, why don't you read my previous post about the consequences of implementing this suggestion. Don't get me wrong, when someone lets time run out to get a better cash or not take a card, i foe them.


Your scenario doesn't make sense. Players can't hold five cards during their assault phase.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby stahrgazer on Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:54 pm

Timminz wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:The OP says that the card is "tabulated" after the assault. That means the only change to the system is that you don't require an ended turn to earn a card. Nothing else would change; you'd still know what your card was before your next turn, because the card would display in your spoils as soon as you end your turn (either by clicking 'end turn' or by running out of time).

stahrgazer wrote:Concise description: Deferred spoils
    Reprogram spoils so that they are tabulated at the end of any successful assault, but not granted until the start of the player's next turn - held in limbo, similar to "deferred troops" when players miss turns.


Very simply, Timminz.. I wanted to give nay-sayers something to negate. Suggesting they not receive the card till the beginning of next turn does that... while making the point that if they earned the card, they should get it, always; they should not be able to cheat the system to "not get it" nor should they lose the card they already earned if they legitimately ran out of time to hit "end turn". It would be more consistent with the way CC wrote its rules, too... the rules don't say, "You earn a card when you conquer a region and end your turn," they say you earn a card when you conquer a region; you just don't get it until the end of your turn, which should be one of two things: you ended your turn or the clock ran out.

Cards that weren't awarded at "end turn," because "end turn" wasn't depressed, are held until the "start turn" is pressed.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:14 pm

So your idea was to make your suggestion worse so that people could criticize it?

If you don't change it to say that the card is received at the end of the turn, I'm just going to make my own suggestion that does say that, because it's far superior.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Darwins_Bane on Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:36 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Darwins_Bane wrote:saying that something should be stopped is all well and good, but there has been no real suggestion on what should be done to replace the current system.


Sure there has been. It's in the first post of this thread.

And before going off like you did, why don't you read my previous post about the consequences of implementing this suggestion. Don't get me wrong, when someone lets time run out to get a better cash or not take a card, i foe them.


Your scenario doesn't make sense. Players can't hold five cards during their assault phase.


Yes you can, you begin your turn and you have 5 cards. then you have to cash. In freestyle escalating, a rather cheap strategy has come around ( mostly in speed games), whereby you start your turn, then the round ends, so you still have 5 cards, but everyone else had to cash. how would your suggestion fit into this?
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:39 pm

Darwins_Bane wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Darwins_Bane wrote:saying that something should be stopped is all well and good, but there has been no real suggestion on what should be done to replace the current system.


Sure there has been. It's in the first post of this thread.

And before going off like you did, why don't you read my previous post about the consequences of implementing this suggestion. Don't get me wrong, when someone lets time run out to get a better cash or not take a card, i foe them.


Your scenario doesn't make sense. Players can't hold five cards during their assault phase.


Yes you can, you begin your turn and you have 5 cards. then you have to cash. In freestyle escalating, a rather cheap strategy has come around ( mostly in speed games), whereby you start your turn, then the round ends, so you still have 5 cards, but everyone else had to cash. how would your suggestion fit into this?


Well, this suggestion doesn't change anything about the status quo in that regard, because it only changes the time at which you receive new cards you earn.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby stahrgazer on Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:22 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:Well, this suggestion doesn't change anything about the status quo in that regard, because it only changes the time at which you receive new cards you earn.

It would change the status quo in that regard. Under this suggestion, you would not be able to avoid getting a card just by not hitting "end" at the end of your turn. If you failed to hit "end" you'd get it at the start of your next turn, which would auto-force the cash.

Not assaulting to avoid a spoil is one thing. Using a program glitch to avoid getting the spoil is correctable. This suggestion is aimed at correcting that correctable glitch. This suggestion also ensures that someone who qualifies for a spoil but whose system messes up, or whose time ran out, could still get their earned spoils. Both of these reasons are "pro" a change.

The only con would be, people who want to cheat the system by avoiding taking the spoil after they technically won a spoil, would be unable to continue to cheat the system that way. That's only a con if you like a strategy that cheats the system.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:09 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:Well, this suggestion doesn't change anything about the status quo in that regard, because it only changes the time at which you receive new cards you earn.

It would change the status quo in that regard. Under this suggestion, you would not be able to avoid getting a card just by not hitting "end" at the end of your turn. If you failed to hit "end" you'd get it at the start of your next turn, which would auto-force the cash.

Not assaulting to avoid a spoil is one thing. Using a program glitch to avoid getting the spoil is correctable. This suggestion is aimed at correcting that correctable glitch. This suggestion also ensures that someone who qualifies for a spoil but whose system messes up, or whose time ran out, could still get their earned spoils. Both of these reasons are "pro" a change.

The only con would be, people who want to cheat the system by avoiding taking the spoil after they technically won a spoil, would be unable to continue to cheat the system that way. That's only a con if you like a strategy that cheats the system.


You seem to have misread the scenario. In the case in question, the player never assaulted a territory, and thus he never earned a card. Therefore your suggestion doesn't change what happens in that case.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Queen_Herpes on Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:42 am

Darwins_Bane wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Darwins_Bane wrote:saying that something should be stopped is all well and good, but there has been no real suggestion on what should be done to replace the current system.


Sure there has been. It's in the first post of this thread.

And before going off like you did, why don't you read my previous post about the consequences of implementing this suggestion. Don't get me wrong, when someone lets time run out to get a better cash or not take a card, i foe them.


Your scenario doesn't make sense. Players can't hold five cards during their assault phase.


Yes you can, you begin your turn and you have 5 cards. then you have to cash. In freestyle escalating, a rather cheap strategy has come around ( mostly in speed games), whereby you start your turn, then the round ends, so you still have 5 cards, but everyone else had to cash. how would your suggestion fit into this?


I didn't think of that! I'm going to miss my turns in freestyle escalating now! Thanks for the tip!
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby eddie2 on Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:57 am

Yes you can, you begin your turn and you have 5 cards. then you have to cash. In freestyle escalating, a rather cheap strategy has come around ( mostly in speed games), whereby you start your turn, then the round ends, so you still have 5 cards, but everyone else had to cash. how would your suggestion fit into this?


no you seem to have miss read this sug. this sug is not about players not playing this sug is about players who play there shot and dont recieve there cards for 2 reasons.

1)have a crash and times out.
2)abuse the system by timing out and not recieving a fifth card being forced 2 cash next shot.

for your thing on freestyle maybe start a new sug stating if they do this they lose the cards. because if you cash them and go 2 deploy you loose the troups why not if you don,t even try to cash them. you should lose the cards.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby ljex on Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:08 pm

NO NO NO NO NO...this would change the game of fs speed completely for the worse please don't do this...also if people really dont want a card then they can just not attack, so there would still be a way to not card in escalating which is what you seem like you are talking about. Also let me be the one to say that i will take the first set every time if i can in a fs escalating speed...it means im ahead cards on everyone else, dont have to race to get the higher cash and will have more troops/cards when it matter.

How it would change speed fs...if i dont have to end to get a card, i can just attack till the end of the rounnd and still get a card, would make it way less skill as you dont have to worry as much about the clock and you would have an extra second or two to attack.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby stahrgazer on Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:37 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:Well, this suggestion doesn't change anything about the status quo in that regard, because it only changes the time at which you receive new cards you earn.

It would change the status quo in that regard. Under this suggestion, you would not be able to avoid getting a card just by not hitting "end" at the end of your turn. If you failed to hit "end" you'd get it at the start of your next turn, which would auto-force the cash.

Not assaulting to avoid a spoil is one thing. Using a program glitch to avoid getting the spoil is correctable. This suggestion is aimed at correcting that correctable glitch. This suggestion also ensures that someone who qualifies for a spoil but whose system messes up, or whose time ran out, could still get their earned spoils. Both of these reasons are "pro" a change.

The only con would be, people who want to cheat the system by avoiding taking the spoil after they technically won a spoil, would be unable to continue to cheat the system that way. That's only a con if you like a strategy that cheats the system.


You seem to have misread the scenario. In the case in question, the player never assaulted a territory, and thus he never earned a card. Therefore your suggestion doesn't change what happens in that case.


If a player doesn't assault, player doesn't earn spoil; you're correct, I'm not suggesting that should change.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby eddie2 on Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:00 pm

ljex wrote:NO NO NO NO NO...this would change the game of fs speed completely for the worse please don't do this...also if people really dont want a card then they can just not attack, so there would still be a way to not card in escalating which is what you seem like you are talking about. Also let me be the one to say that i will take the first set every time if i can in a fs escalating speed...it means im ahead cards on everyone else, dont have to race to get the higher cash and will have more troops/cards when it matter.

How it would change speed fs...if i dont have to end to get a card, i can just attack till the end of the rounnd and still get a card, would make it way less skill as you dont have to worry as much about the clock and you would have an extra second or two to attack.


ljex plz read what i said freestyle has nothing 2 do with this sug all i told him to do was make a sug if he was not happy
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Queen_Herpes on Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:57 pm

ljex wrote:NO NO NO NO NO...this would change the game of fs speed completely for the worse please don't do this...also if people really dont want a card then they can just not attack, so there would still be a way to not card in escalating which is what you seem like you are talking about. Also let me be the one to say that i will take the first set every time if i can in a fs escalating speed...it means im ahead cards on everyone else, dont have to race to get the higher cash and will have more troops/cards when it matter.

How it would change speed fs...if i dont have to end to get a card, i can just attack till the end of the rounnd and still get a card, would make it way less skill as you dont have to worry as much about the clock and you would have an extra second or two to attack.



I still like your idea! It is a great plan to miss your turn in a freestyle escalating speed game!
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=102006

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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby ljex on Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:56 pm

Queen_Herpes wrote:
ljex wrote:NO NO NO NO NO...this would change the game of fs speed completely for the worse please don't do this...also if people really dont want a card then they can just not attack, so there would still be a way to not card in escalating which is what you seem like you are talking about. Also let me be the one to say that i will take the first set every time if i can in a fs escalating speed...it means im ahead cards on everyone else, dont have to race to get the higher cash and will have more troops/cards when it matter.

How it would change speed fs...if i dont have to end to get a card, i can just attack till the end of the rounnd and still get a card, would make it way less skill as you dont have to worry as much about the clock and you would have an extra second or two to attack.



I still like your idea! It is a great plan to miss your turn in a freestyle escalating speed game!


Well the simple fact is that it is not a good idea to miss cards in freestyle escalating speed games...also if you really wanted too you could just not attack so I fail to see how your argument has any validity
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Queen_Herpes on Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:59 pm

ljex wrote:
Queen_Herpes wrote:
ljex wrote:NO NO NO NO NO...this would change the game of fs speed completely for the worse please don't do this...also if people really dont want a card then they can just not attack, so there would still be a way to not card in escalating which is what you seem like you are talking about. Also let me be the one to say that i will take the first set every time if i can in a fs escalating speed...it means im ahead cards on everyone else, dont have to race to get the higher cash and will have more troops/cards when it matter.

How it would change speed fs...if i dont have to end to get a card, i can just attack till the end of the rounnd and still get a card, would make it way less skill as you dont have to worry as much about the clock and you would have an extra second or two to attack.



I still like your idea! It is a great plan to miss your turn in a freestyle escalating speed game!


Well the simple fact is that it is not a good idea to miss cards in freestyle escalating speed games...also if you really wanted too you could just not attack so I fail to see how your argument has any validity

My argument?

It was your great idea! You use it well in escalating freestyle speed! I like it! And it is not cheating to miss your turn in an escalating freestyle speed game, it seems to be a great idea!
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=102006

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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby ljex on Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:20 pm

Queen_Herpes wrote:
ljex wrote:
Queen_Herpes wrote:
ljex wrote:NO NO NO NO NO...this would change the game of fs speed completely for the worse please don't do this...also if people really dont want a card then they can just not attack, so there would still be a way to not card in escalating which is what you seem like you are talking about. Also let me be the one to say that i will take the first set every time if i can in a fs escalating speed...it means im ahead cards on everyone else, dont have to race to get the higher cash and will have more troops/cards when it matter.

How it would change speed fs...if i dont have to end to get a card, i can just attack till the end of the rounnd and still get a card, would make it way less skill as you dont have to worry as much about the clock and you would have an extra second or two to attack.



I still like your idea! It is a great plan to miss your turn in a freestyle escalating speed game!


Well the simple fact is that it is not a good idea to miss cards in freestyle escalating speed games...also if you really wanted too you could just not attack so I fail to see how your argument has any validity

My argument?

It was your great idea! You use it well in escalating freestyle speed! I like it! And it is not cheating to miss your turn in an escalating freestyle speed game, it seems to be a great idea!


All it does is make you not have to end to get a spoil...that would completely change the game of freestyle speed escalating for the worse in my opinion, and i think that is the same for many others. Also it is an awful plan to miss your turn in a freestyle escalating speed turn, in fact i can remember many games i have lost because i missed a card for some reason or the other...so im not sure why you think it is a good play to miss a turn.
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Re: Reprogram to eliminate spoils cheap tactics by 'deferrin

Postby Bruceswar on Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:12 am

Holy shit me and Ljex agree! This has to be one of the worst ideas ever. Making it easier to get a card is totally insane. Here are a few examples...

1) Player A takes his turn and half way into he he gets called away to work. He does not finish his turn and when he returns he find the time has ran out. He should not get a card in this situation

2) In a speed game a player is racing to see how quick he can cash and get a card. With this suggestion he can cash and attack in 2 seconds max. Who cares about ending now? He still gets a card when he should have missed his card. Part of the strategy is to be able to get a card while cashing and not missing.

3) Player A attacks and wishes not to end and get a card. This could save his life in a game. Seems perfectly fine to me. If you cannot take the fact he just out foxed you, then you have issues. In general most all times it is a good idea to get a card.

4) Any player who is careless enough not to end their turn in time, or simply cannot do it in time, should not be awarded a card.

And to quote foxglove:

Foxglove wrote:Seems like a very poor idea to me. How can you plan a turn in a team game (or standard game!) if you don't know what your cards are?
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