Prevent New Members being farmed for points

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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby TheForgivenOne on Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Woodruff wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:
demonfork wrote:Playing against new recruits or having new recruits join your games from time to time is not against the rules.


From time to time, yes. But if the only games you play attract New Recruits and you constantly set these games up over and over, than you will get warned/point reset.


Which is a really stupid rule, of course.


Really? How so?


The idea that you can be punished FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S ACTIONS is ludicrious. If someone is INVITING newbies to their games, sure then there's a case. But being punished because someone else joins your games of their own free choosing without impetus from you is an idiotic concept that goes against justice in almost every aspect. It's really quite sick, in my opinion.


So we should let people abuse this? People have already shot up the scoreboard because all they did was create settings, where 9/10 games had NR's join. And the few times actual opponents joined the games, said user dropped that game. You don't think that's gross abuse? Purposely TRYING to play NR's? Or why else would he have dropped games against opponents of actual calibur?
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:32 pm

TheForgivenOne wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:From time to time, yes. But if the only games you play attract New Recruits and you constantly set these games up over and over, than you will get warned/point reset.


Which is a really stupid rule, of course.


Really? How so?


The idea that you can be punished FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S ACTIONS is ludicrious. If someone is INVITING newbies to their games, sure then there's a case. But being punished because someone else joins your games of their own free choosing without impetus from you is an idiotic concept that goes against justice in almost every aspect. It's really quite sick, in my opinion.


So we should let people abuse this?


Abuse what? The rule should be that you can't JOIN GAMES with newbies...THAT is something you can control. As well, as I mentioned above, you should not be able to send invitations to newbies...again, THAT is something you can control. Who joins your games? You can't control that.

TheForgivenOne wrote:People have already shot up the scoreboard because all they did was create settings, where 9/10 games had NR's join.


So what? No, I mean seriously...why do we care? Since the site is 100% against any sort of rank restriction on games (something that has been requested many, many times by many, many users and found great support by users), then the site is effectively saying that they're ok with NRs joining whatever games they can. I, as a user who happens to like a particular game and setting, should not be punished simply because NRs happen to join my games (again, something which I cannot control).

TheForgivenOne wrote:And the few times actual opponents joined the games, said user dropped that game.


Ah, but you see, THAT is very much a different issue. THAT, once again, is something that the user is in control of. That "dropping of games" is absolutely grounds for punishment. Yet, you'll notice upon close inspection, that isn't what I was talking about at all.

TheForgivenOne wrote:Purposely TRYING to play NR's?


PURPOSELY trying to play NRs would mean they joined games with NRs, they invited NRs, or they dropped games once other users join them...absolutely, those should be punishable. But those are outside of the scope of my very clear point.

TheForgivenOne wrote:Or why else would he have dropped games against opponents of actual calibur?


Is it your contention that everyone who has been sanctioned (which includes warnings) under this rule have taken such an action? I would strongly suggest to you that's not the case at all. Thus, my point.

If the site wants to be serious about people not playing NRs all the time, then they should BE serious and implement some sort of real rank restriction. By placing the onus on the player to monitor themselves, they are effectively SETTING UP USERS TO BE PUNISHED. It's akin to entrapment. The site needs to make it impossible or quit bitching about it.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby TheForgivenOne on Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:33 pm

Woodruff wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Which is a really stupid rule, of course.


Really? How so?


The idea that you can be punished FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S ACTIONS is ludicrious. If someone is INVITING newbies to their games, sure then there's a case. But being punished because someone else joins your games of their own free choosing without impetus from you is an idiotic concept that goes against justice in almost every aspect. It's really quite sick, in my opinion.


So we should let people abuse this?


Abuse what? The rule should be that you can't JOIN GAMES with newbies...THAT is something you can control. As well, as I mentioned above, you should not be able to send invitations to newbies...again, THAT is something you can control. Who joins your games? You can't control that.


lackattack wrote:"Newbie Farming" is the technique of setting up as many games as possible (either by starting or joining them) with New Recruits


According to that, STARTING GAMES WITH NEW RECRUITS is apart of the Farming rule. That players score is not representing there skill if they shoot up the scoreboard all because a ton on NR's deadbeat against him and he gets free points. You can't claim ignorance all because "WELL OTHER PEOPLE COULD EASILY JOIN", it's pretty obvious people aren't.

And you can easily just up the amount of players to 6, VIOLA! You won't get New Recruits.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby tkr4lf on Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:53 pm

TheForgivenOne wrote:And you can easily just up the amount of players to 6, VIOLA! You won't get New Recruits.

I agree with this, you can easily change the amount of players. And this would be fine if only 5 player games were subject to this.

Unfortunately, some maps are better suited to say, 4 players, then they are to 6. Take Pelo War, for instance. With 4 players each player starts with 2 starting points. If you increase the number up to 6, then each player gets 1 starting point, and there are 2 empty starting points. This gives an unfair advantage to whoever gets lucky enough to drop next to one of these empty starting points. It shouldn't be the player's fault that NR's join the game that that player prefers to play.

This whole situation is basically false advertisement. People pay $25 to be able to play whatever games they wish to with whatever settings they wish to. That is the fundamental draw of this website. But, after joining up and paying that money, then they find out that they can't play a certain map with certain settings because NR's are drawn to that particular mix of map/settings. This is something that needs to be addressed.

The majority of users are in favor of some sort of rank segregation when it comes to NR's. Now the question is whether lack is going to do what his customers (which are always right, if I heard correctly) want, or what he thinks is best, even though a majority of customers disagree.

It's not right to punish people for playing the game they want to just because a majority of the people who come to this site for the first time are expecting a quick game of risk and find out that that is not what this site is at all, and thus never come back. That is not our fault.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:01 pm

TheForgivenOne wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:
Woodruff wrote:The idea that you can be punished FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S ACTIONS is ludicrious. If someone is INVITING newbies to their games, sure then there's a case. But being punished because someone else joins your games of their own free choosing without impetus from you is an idiotic concept that goes against justice in almost every aspect. It's really quite sick, in my opinion.


So we should let people abuse this?


Abuse what? The rule should be that you can't JOIN GAMES with newbies...THAT is something you can control. As well, as I mentioned above, you should not be able to send invitations to newbies...again, THAT is something you can control. Who joins your games? You can't control that.


lackattack wrote:"Newbie Farming" is the technique of setting up as many games as possible (either by starting or joining them) with New Recruits


According to that, STARTING GAMES WITH NEW RECRUITS is apart of the Farming rule.


First of all, it's IMPOSSIBLE to "start a game with new recruits". Aside from that, you've precisely hit upon my point. It's ridiculous that someone can be punished because of an action taken BY SOMEONE ELSE (in this case, the newbie joining the game). I'm not saying it's not the rule...I'm saying that the rule is insipid and ridiculous.

TheForgivenOne wrote:That players score is not representing there skill if they shoot up the scoreboard all because a ton on NR's deadbeat against him and he gets free points.


This is really no argument at all, given that it is a well-known situation that nobody's skill is accurately represented by their score ANYWAY. It just isn't, and everyone who is paying attention knows it.

TheForgivenOne wrote:You can't claim ignorance all because "WELL OTHER PEOPLE COULD EASILY JOIN", it's pretty obvious people aren't.


That isn't the game creators fault. Why is he punished for it?

TheForgivenOne wrote:And you can easily just up the amount of players to 6, VIOLA! You won't get New Recruits.


And the site can easily just implement some sort of rank restriction capability and VIOLA, you won't get new recruits and it would be IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to be wrongly accused of farming (because it would be obvious otherwise).
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:03 pm

tkr4lf wrote:This whole situation is basically false advertisement. People pay $25 to be able to play whatever games they wish to with whatever settings they wish to. That is the fundamental draw of this website. But, after joining up and paying that money, then they find out that they can't play a certain map with certain settings because NR's are drawn to that particular mix of map/settings. This is something that needs to be addressed.


Correct, this is an outstanding supplemental point.

tkr4lf wrote:The majority of users are in favor of some sort of rank segregation when it comes to NR's. Now the question is whether lack is going to do what his customers (which are always right, if I heard correctly) want, or what he thinks is best, even though a majority of customers disagree.


You would think that overwhelming support would catch his eye. However, that would require him to stop by his website from time to time and actually interact with his customers...and he doesn't seem to have much interest in that, either.

tkr4lf wrote:It's not right to punish people for playing the game they want to just because a majority of the people who come to this site for the first time are expecting a quick game of risk and find out that that is not what this site is at all, and thus never come back. That is not our fault.


Exactly.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby Martin Ronne on Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:51 am

I too have to agree with Woodruff, as I also have a type of game I like to play. Though I'm afraid I can't argue too much as I am only freemium.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby Dibbun on Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:59 am

This is such a stupid debate.

Just don't fucking farm

Not that damn hard. If all your games are being filled by ?'s then pick some different settings. No idea how people have 30+ games with all NR's and then are like "durrrrrr accident!"
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby tkr4lf on Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:56 am

Dibbun wrote:This is such a stupid debate.

Just don't fucking farm

Not that damn hard. If all your games are being filled by ?'s then pick some different settings. No idea how people have 30+ games with all NR's and then are like "durrrrrr accident!"

Noone here is saying that it's ok to farm.

The problem is when people are falsly accused of farming when in actuality, they are just playing the games that they like to play.

Did you even bother to read my or Woodruf's posts?

CC should eliminate this by making it to where NR's can only play other NR's, or maybe up to Corporal or so. That would pretty much eliminate farming of NR's and let people play whatever game they want with whatever settings. Both sides would win.

The way it is now, nobody wins. Farming still happens, and players can't play certain maps with certain settings for fear of being accused of farming. It's not a good situation and it needs to be rectified.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby Dibbun on Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:10 am

How hard is it to play a diverse group of players? Create 5 games with your favorite settings, join 5 other games...

though honestly farming is not really strictly enforced here (not criticizing mods, just saying) and really the only punishment that comes down is if you invite NR's.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby Woodruff on Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:10 am

Dibbun wrote:How hard is it to play a diverse group of players? Create 5 games with your favorite settings, join 5 other games...


The problem is that this website will hit you for "farming" if you do that when half the games you create with your favorite settings are joined by NRs.

Dibbun wrote:though honestly farming is not really strictly enforced here (not criticizing mods, just saying) and really the only punishment that comes down is if you invite NR's.


This is absolutely not true, unfortunately. There have been cases where individuals have been sanctioned for nothing more than having too many NRs join their games.

Dibbun wrote:This is such a stupid debate.

Just don't fucking farm

Not that damn hard. If all your games are being filled by ?'s then pick some different settings. No idea how people have 30+ games with all NR's and then are like "durrrrrr accident!"


A brilliant analysis, Dibbun...I'm so glad you could add your scintillating perspective.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby Qwert on Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:47 am

i think that you can put NR restriction in first 10 games, so that he only can play with max corporal rank, and when these 10 game finished,then restriction its lifted and new player can play with every rank.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby Dibbun on Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:42 am

Woodruff wrote:
Dibbun wrote:though honestly farming is not really strictly enforced here (not criticizing mods, just saying) and really the only punishment that comes down is if you invite NR's.


This is absolutely not true, unfortunately. There have been cases where individuals have been sanctioned for nothing more than having too many NRs join their games.



Look at the ad10 and *Snowman* decisions. Ad10 got off, *Snowman* only eventually got Noted because of invites. The recent precedents is to let volume slide and only hit on invites.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby zimmah on Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:48 am

TheForgivenOne wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
The idea that you can be punished FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S ACTIONS is ludicrious. If someone is INVITING newbies to their games, sure then there's a case. But being punished because someone else joins your games of their own free choosing without impetus from you is an idiotic concept that goes against justice in almost every aspect. It's really quite sick, in my opinion.


So we should let people abuse this?


Abuse what? The rule should be that you can't JOIN GAMES with newbies...THAT is something you can control. As well, as I mentioned above, you should not be able to send invitations to newbies...again, THAT is something you can control. Who joins your games? You can't control that.


lackattack wrote:"Newbie Farming" is the technique of setting up as many games as possible (either by starting or joining them) with New Recruits


According to that, STARTING GAMES WITH NEW RECRUITS is apart of the Farming rule. That players score is not representing there skill if they shoot up the scoreboard all because a ton on NR's deadbeat against him and he gets free points. You can't claim ignorance all because "WELL OTHER PEOPLE COULD EASILY JOIN", it's pretty obvious people aren't.

And you can easily just up the amount of players to 6, VIOLA! You won't get New Recruits.


maybe so, but i have to agree on woodruff.

If you play a game setting and new recruits tend to like those settings as well, and you do not drop games with actual opponents, neither do you invite NRs, then i'd say t's not farming. As the intention is not farming NRs but just playng the map/settings you like.

against a new player who's deadbeating in all his games it's easy:

if a player has the rank of new recruit and misses ALL his turns in a game, he'll give no points at all.


Score in CC is not accuratly representing skill either way. there's a lot of things to consider.

there's many different maps, and if you specialize in 1 map/setting you'll constantly beat people playing your settings (no matter NR or high-ranked players that happen to play other settings). however if you play said player (which should have a high rank because of farming those settings) on your map, you'll beat hm with ease. So score is just settings-wide, not global, yet, the score is globaly equal, which means even if you play a map you don't know, your score will be just the same, not actually representing your skill in those settings.

As wel as countless people who farm freestyle and have nothing else to do then taking their turns almost 24/7 to make sure they can act fast at any situation, getting a major advantage over people with a real life. etc.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby Woodruff on Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:59 am

Dibbun wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Dibbun wrote:though honestly farming is not really strictly enforced here (not criticizing mods, just saying) and really the only punishment that comes down is if you invite NR's.


This is absolutely not true, unfortunately. There have been cases where individuals have been sanctioned for nothing more than having too many NRs join their games.



Look at the ad10 and *Snowman* decisions. Ad10 got off, *Snowman* only eventually got Noted because of invites. The recent precedents is to let volume slide and only hit on invites.


That is true of those two recent decisions, but they are certainly not all of the decisions handed down in this regard. As you can clearly see in the rules, you can be sanctioned for it, and users have been. PER THE SITE RULES.

Even that aside though, the idea that a player cannot play their favorite maps/settings simply because they have to fear that they will be sanctioned because too many NRs join their games is ridiculous when it could EASILY be resolved by very simply allowing rank restrictions to be placed on games. Honestly, there is no logical reason against it...it is simply that the site owner doesn't like the idea.
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