[MED] Special Clan member contribution achievement award.

[chemefreak]

You can be in multiple usergroups but only one clan. There are extreme differences between the two. We are called Clan Directors not Usergroup Directors. This appears to be a medal geared towards clans. Should someone wish to get admin to consider a usergroup medal (none exists) then feel free to do so. At this point let's try to get some new dialogue in here instead of beating a dead horse.

[Metsfanmax]

You can be in multiple usergroups but only one clan. There are extreme differences between the two. We are called Clan Directors not Usergroup Directors. This appears to be a medal geared towards clans. Should someone wish to get admin to consider a usergroup medal (none exists) then feel free to do so. At this point let's try to get some new dialogue in here instead of beating a dead horse.

jefjef's quote and comment are out of context; this is not about comparing usergroups and clans. I don't need to prove that they're in any way similar to make the point that we're allowing one group of players to reward contributions to that group but not others, simply because the former is a "clan" and the latter are not. That distinction has nothing to do with whether a player contributes substantially to a group of players. In other words, this is essentially a social medal, not a game-playing medal, yet the OP presumably wants to preclude it from certain user groups because they don't play the game according to certain standards.

At any rate, jefjef needs to respond to more than just one part of one sentence if this argument is going to proceed forward.

[jefjef]

You can be in multiple usergroups but only one clan. There are extreme differences between the two. We are called Clan Directors not Usergroup Directors. This appears to be a medal geared towards clans. Should someone wish to get admin to consider a usergroup medal (none exists) then feel free to do so. At this point let's try to get some new dialogue in here instead of beating a dead horse.

jefjef's quote and comment are out of context; this is not about comparing usergroups and clans. I don't need to prove that they're in any way similar to make the point that we're allowing one group of players to reward contributions to that group but not others, simply because the former is a "clan" and the latter are not. That distinction has nothing to do with whether a player contributes substantially to a group of players. In other words, this is essentially a social medal, not a game-playing medal, yet the OP presumably wants to preclude it from certain user groups because they don't play the game according to certain standards.

At any rate, jefjef needs to respond to more than just one part of one sentence if this argument is going to proceed forward.

Look here mets. It's no secret I am confused by why you are a mod and it's no secret I am not one of your buddies.

This is not a "social" medal. There is a lot of behind the scene work that takes place to run a war and train and recruit and keep records and make clan life a fun experience. Some people go above and beyond and deserve special recognition and thanks.

Now how about you cease trying to derail this sugg and take your vendetta against me somewhere else.

FYI: What made me think of this was one of our members showed very noticeable improvement in his team play and I found myself wishing I could give him an award.

[The Voice]

Very well thought out. My apologies if this is already addressed, but how is a player nominated? Is it up to the specific clan?

[reptile]

I too support this, good luck

It is a great idea to have something you can award a member of a clan (not to be confused with usergroup)

[Metsfanmax]

This is not a "social" medal. There is a lot of behind the scene work that takes place to run a war and train and recruit and keep records and make clan life a fun experience. Some people go above and beyond and deserve special recognition and thanks.

You have yet to make a single argument as to why a site medal (specifically) is an appropriate way to demonstrate this recognition. Until you do this debate will go nowhere.

Now how about you cease trying to derail this sugg and take your vendetta against me somewhere else.

I am not going to apologize for my stance if I think that there is a significant problem or logical gap in a suggestion. I will stop posting -- I promise -- if one person provides one post cogently and intelligently reasoning out why a site medal is appropriate here (as opposed to, say, a list maintained in the clan forum of each clan's "MVP" for the year or what-have-you), and why it is not a problem that clans can vote on who to give medals to but other groups of players cannot. Is this honestly too much to ask for?

[jefjef]

This is not a "social" medal. There is a lot of behind the scene work that takes place to run a war and train and recruit and keep records and make clan life a fun experience. Some people go above and beyond and deserve special recognition and thanks.

You have yet to make a single argument as to why a site medal (specifically) is an appropriate way to demonstrate this recognition. Until you do this debate will go nowhere.

You can't get anymore game related than competitive clans and wars. They aren't pick-up games. They aren't tea parties.

You really have no idea how much work really goes into running a clan and fighting several wars and increasing peoples enjoyment for this GAME we come here to play do you? Or maybe you just refuse to acknowledge it. It's a very worthy idea that has CD support and lots of clan support. It's as appropriate as a clan achievement medal is for a war win and as appropriate as a tourney contribution award is for running a tourney.

I'm finished with our debate.

[Metsfanmax]

It's as appropriate as a clan achievement medal is for a war win

There's no logic in this that is obvious to me,

and as appropriate as a tourney contribution award is for running a tourney.

but you may be on to something with this one. I would say that one really important distinction between the two medals is that anyone can enter a tournament, but only the people in the two participating clans get the benefit of the people who put the time in to run the clan war. Of course, this is totally ignoring the fact that it's very likely that this medal will not always be given out for people who put in the time to run clan wars (you even said so yourself, that your inspiration for this was a clan mate getting better in his game play!).

I would be much more comfortable with this suggestion if we did something like greenoaks stated a while back, where there's prescribed conditions for what qualifies a member for a special contribution medal, and that recommendation has to be approved by the Clan Director. It seems like a reasonable compromise where the individual clan members still get to pick the person they want, but the team still has the discretion to ensure that medals are not given out to players who didn't actually contribute to the well being of the clan (but perhaps simply won a popularity contest among its members). If the person nominated is truly believed to have contributed something special to the clan, I'm sure it will get approved -- but if that person didn't and the clan knows it, it won't get approved. That's totally fine, because those people have no leg to stand on anyway -- they shouldn't get to award a medal to someone for a poor reason, so there's no reason to defend their interests.

[ViperOverLord]

I can support this.

[jefjef]

It's as appropriate as a clan achievement medal is for a war win

There's no logic in this that is obvious to me,

and as appropriate as a tourney contribution award is for running a tourney.

but you may be on to something with this one. I would say that one really important distinction between the two medals is that anyone can enter a tournament, but only the people in the two participating clans get the benefit of the people who put the time in to run the clan war. Of course, this is totally ignoring the fact that it's very likely that this medal will not always be given out for people who put in the time to run clan wars (you even said so yourself, that your inspiration for this was a clan mate getting better in his game play!).

I would be much more comfortable with this suggestion if we did something like greenoaks stated a while back, where there's prescribed conditions for what qualifies a member for a special contribution medal, and that recommendation has to be approved by the Clan Director. It seems like a reasonable compromise where the individual clan members still get to pick the person they want, but the team still has the discretion to ensure that medals are not given out to players who didn't actually contribute to the well being of the clan (but perhaps simply won a popularity contest among its members). If the person nominated is truly believed to have contributed something special to the clan, I'm sure it will get approved -- but if that person didn't and the clan knows it, it won't get approved. That's totally fine, because those people have no leg to stand on anyway -- they shouldn't get to award a medal to someone for a poor reason, so there's no reason to defend their interests.

Did you even read the sugg? Clans aren't going to award a non-contributor. I also suggested 1 per year per clan to make sure clans weren't just giving them out. As far as popularity contest. If someone who puts in a lot of time/work in a clan they would be miffed if the recognition went to someone who's contribution is telling good jokes.

AND if you read some other posts I had stated a couple time that there should be criteria in order to qualify.

Yes my inspiration for this idea was I was thinking to myself that I wish I could give an award. That got me to thinking BEYOND his improvement to the BIGGER picture of a special award for someone who contributes in a MAJOR way to a clans enjoyment and success. (It's more than just improved team play...)

BTW: Did you even read chemefreaks posts? Maybe you should.

Now to be blunt. I am quite certain if this exact suggestion was submitted by someone else you would not be quite so adverse towards it.

We have overwhelming support. It's time you take that into account.

[Metsfanmax]

Did you even read the sugg? Clans aren't going to award a non-contributor. I also suggested 1 per year per clan to make sure clans weren't just giving them out. As far as popularity contest. If someone who puts in a lot of time/work in a clan they would be miffed if the recognition went to someone who's contribution is telling good jokes.

What I meant by popularity contest was that someone could quite possibly get the award for being the best player in the clan if guidelines are not set properly.

AND if you read some other posts I had stated a couple time that there should be criteria in order to qualify.

Please be more specific about what the criteria should be. This sort of thing should be hammered out before official submission, not afterward. Also, I'm not going to be comfortable with it until the requirement of Clan executives specifically approving each award is made explicit. Given the amount of support here, I would most likely have no problem submitting this suggestion were those fixes added to the OP and agreed upon by the people who support it.

Now to be blunt. I am quite certain if this exact suggestion was submitted by someone else you would not be negative towards it.

You are entitled to your opinion on the matter, but it surely has no relevance to the salience of my comments. Please keep comments on topic, regarding the content of this suggestion.

[codeblue1018]

Jef, no reason to debate Mets further; waste of your time. Chem seems to be involved, let's just see where this goes. Bottom line, it's a great idea and mets has no clue on all that is involved with clans obviously.

[jefjef]

Jef, no reason to debate Mets further; waste of your time. Chem seems to be involved, let's just see where this goes. Bottom line, it's a great idea and mets has no clue on all that is involved with clans obviously.

Thank you code. You are correct.

Now to reiterate clan director chemefreaks post:

This is fun! I was thinking that at the end of each year the CDs could pm the leaders of certain clans (perhaps clans that have been "around" for the entire year) and ask them who their award should go to. Then the clans themselves can determine by voting or whatever who in their clan gets the medal. Just a thought.

Issuing medals is not too difficult. I am going to issue one right now to jefjef for this idea

Soon we will be issuing MVP awards for clan wars. I believe that this is starting for any clan war that began after July 1, 2011. We are still nailing down the exact "science" of the award, but to be honest, it is pretty easy to see who the MVP for each clan was once you review the numbers. Every now and then there will be a tough call, but it should be an interesting exercise, none the less.

As far as the theory that this would take medal issuing out of CC's control, I'm not sure that is exactly true. Now, at this point, Masli may say that this is not going to happen or perhaps even admin will step and say we can't issue medals for this purpose. But I think it is a nice way to reward certain members of our clans that may not get all the wins, etc. Also, as indicated previously, I would be happy to head the operation on behalf of the CDs should this get implemented.

I have put a link to this thread in the CD forum and will see if it can gain any traction.

[Metsfanmax]

Well if you're going to bypass the Suggestions process, should I just move this to Rejected?

[jefjef]

Well if you're going to bypass the Suggestions process, should I just move this to Rejected?

Your idea of suggestion process is changing it to your tastes - making it yours? You are the ONLY one in all of these pages denouncing it. Now your threatening to reject it solely because you disagree with it?

We have overwhelming support. It's time you take that in consideration.

[Metsfanmax]

Your idea of suggestion process is changing it to your tastes - making it yours? You are the ONLY one in all of these pages denouncing it.

I am not denouncing it. I said a few posts ago that I'd willingly submit this if the things I asked for clarification on, were clarified. You can either choose to do this, or continue making ad hominem remarks about me. Your choice, but only one of those two routes is constructive.

Now your threatening to reject it solely because we you disagree with it?

I'm simply pointing out that if you're going to try to get this implemented without getting it officially submitted, then there's no point in having this discussion here, so I should move it to Rejected. If you are in fact still serious about having this submitted the normal way, then forgive me, but your last post implied the opposite.

[jefjef]

Your idea of suggestion process is changing it to your tastes - making it yours? You are the ONLY one in all of these pages denouncing it.

I am not denouncing it. I said a few posts ago that I'd willingly submit this if the things I asked for clarification on, were clarified. You can either choose to do this, or continue making ad hominem remarks about me. Your choice, but only one of those two routes is constructive.

Now your threatening to reject it solely because we you disagree with it?

I'm simply pointing out that if you're going to try to get this implemented without getting it officially submitted, then there's no point in having this discussion here, so I should move it to Rejected. If you are in fact still serious about having this submitted the normal way, then forgive me, but your last post implied the opposite.

Read chemes post. We await further input from CD's in re of this.

Thank you for your assistance.

[taitaste]

Is a great idea, and the eagle is the perfect symbol

[4 U 2 NV]

I think cheme has started to show that the Clan directors will still be able to take control of who receives the medals. His thought process already stated one potential limitation that only clans that have been "around" for the year would be eligible to vote on behalf of a member for a clan contribution medal and this is just from him loafing about

Clans are a big part of CC. it's similar to tournaments or the SoC. in a clan, you organize games and you teach, but also much more. if tournament medals are handed out for organizing tourneys and general achievement medals are handed out for teaching, why not have a clan contribution medal? the initiative that some members take helps to keep a clan running and successful and without that, a clan will fall short.

Let a clan vote as they are the ones who directly benefit from the person's assistance in their clan. it's true that no clan in their right mind would vote for someone who has done nothing just because. i'm sure other members would find that intolerable to the person who is most deserving.

I would suggest not have all the clans vote and submit at the same time. I think the coolest way would be to have votes submitted to the clan director to make it one big surprise.

in any case, some sort of form should be made:
---------------------------------------------
Clan:
Clan member nominated:
Date clan member joined:
Contributions to clan up to date:

[mcshanester29]

I think this would be a great idea as there are a lot of people in our clan who really go the extra mile and organize everything from clan wars to inner clan battles and more. This would be a great way for them to publicly be thanked for their hard work. I think 1 a year is perfect and having to be submitted to the CD's will work great.

Great idea!!!

[eddie2]

what the hell is going on in this thread. why are we attacking metfanmax here is his opening statement again.

This sets an interesting precedent -- normal users are generally not allowed to determine who is eligible to earn a site medal. Accepting this suggestion would mean Team CC no longer has full control over who receives these recognitions. I think this part of it needs to be addressed before this can be submitted.

now things stem round this post. but what has metsfan actually asked the op thread states giving control of issueing medals to clan leaders. mets fan said this is against how the site operates. someone then came up with a good idea that it will be cd's issueing it but cd's would pm clans they feel are active enough to actually reward a general contribution medal. which if the op would change his opening post to include this it would be submitted. So why attack him for saying this he has to follow certain guidelines before submitting a sug.

now i am also upset to see cla involment in this again in the way it has been put by the cla leader.

JJ i wouldn't bother even responding to metsfanmax truthfully, he's obviously not in support of this idea. Beings it appears he's the only that's not in support of it, as opposed to the now 4 pages of people that are in support of it, I wouldn't worry about it. Mythology and the CLA are fully in support of this, and hope it goes through.

now peanutsdad like i said before metfanmax has to follow guidlines to submit a sug even if he is against it or not you have to follow guidelines what gives you the right to say just ignore him. this is just another example of what has been going on in the cla this is a brilliant sug but will just get lost like all sugs within cla. Due to the fact a simple thing was asked and you go off on the high horse instead of helping sort out the problems he sees with the sug before moving it to pending.

[jeraado]

I support this suggestion. I'd suggest that each clan be given some freedom with how they select their recipient, but that a one-line description of why the award should be given should be provided to the CD mod, to verify that the award is being given for a valid reason. This would allow CC to have a small safeguard against medals being given out for unjust reasons, although at the same time the CD mods would naturally only question the nomination if there were serious considerations as to why that person should not receive it. (I also think it would be a nice touch to include the description in the reason field when the award is issued)

To address the point made against the suggestion, I'm a little unclear about whether the issue being raised is about control or power? If the issue is control, then teamCC is still issuing the medal and checking the process, so I can't really see how this differs from any of the automatically generated gameplay medals. If it is about power, then I would say that teamCC can put in place guidelines (such as number of clan matches played, disciplinary record etc) which are as strict or flexible as they like to prevent whatever undesireable behaviour they are looking to prevent. TeamCC could even administer the internal clan nominating and voting processes if they really wished, although I can't see what benefit be gained from that.

It has also been suggested that introducing a medal based on the opinions of CC users may create a precedent. That precedent has already been made - the Entertainment mods run competitions from time to time which are decided by votes (easter colouring competition, design-a-logo etc). If the community are already choosing winners, who go on to receive medals and/or free premium, then any risk around CC user involvement have already been addressed. I don't see this suggestion as really expanding too far beyond what already happens, except that it offers users the chance to recognise effort (rather than creativity as per the existing competitions).

The fact that the medal would only be given to clans simply reflects that this is an area where a significant amount of effort goes in which is currently unrewarded. I'm not saying this is the only area in which this happens, but since you can get an award for organising a tourney but not a clan war, it doesn't seem unreasonable to give clans some kind of separate recognition for effort. Whatever anyone's opinion about clans/usergroups/non-clan or usergroup members, CC has clearly indicated that clans are an area they would like to support and this suggestion seems in keeping with this policy.

Finally, if I may respectfully give some personal feedback to mets, I've read the full thread including all of your responses. It may simply be the way I am interpreting your writing style, but you are coming across to me as highly confrontational and extremely closed to any other opinions. It is fine to disagree with an opinion or post a rebuttal, but to threaten to reject a suggestion because you feel that your point is not being responded to falls far below the level of professionalism I would expect to see from a site volunteer. I know that you probably have to take unpopular positions from time to time or play devil's advocate, but it is much easier to debate the pros and cons of a suggestion if the discussion is open and frank, rather than based on positional power and a seige mentality. I believe in the above I've addressed the points you've raised although I'm happy to discuss them further.

[talia-thomas]

Great idea guys. Let's make it happen.

[eddie2]

Finally, if I may respectfully give some personal feedback to mets, I've read the full thread including all of your responses. It may simply be the way I am interpreting your writing style, but you are coming across to me as highly confrontational and extremely closed to any other opinions. It is fine to disagree with an opinion or post a rebuttal, but to threaten to reject a suggestion because you feel that your point is not being responded to falls far below the level of professionalism I would expect to see from a site volunteer. I know that you probably have to take unpopular positions from time to time or play devil's advocate, but it is much easier to debate the pros and cons of a suggestion if the discussion is open and frank, rather than based on positional power and a seige mentality. I believe in the above I've addressed the points you've raised although I'm happy to discuss them further.

jeraado metfan is not threating to reject this sug because he dont agree with it. he is threatening to reject it because he asked for some form of confirmation on certain things like what you said earlier in the post. this issues need to be posted in the opening post confirming how these things would be done. he is just doing his volenteer job so get jef to confirm which parts he agrees to then you will see this going to submited very quick.

[AAFitz]

Your idea of suggestion process is changing it to your tastes - making it yours? You are the ONLY one in all of these pages denouncing it.

I am not denouncing it. I said a few posts ago that I'd willingly submit this if the things I asked for clarification on, were clarified. You can either choose to do this, or continue making ad hominem remarks about me. Your choice, but only one of those two routes is constructive.

Now your threatening to reject it solely because we you disagree with it?

I'm simply pointing out that if you're going to try to get this implemented without getting it officially submitted, then there's no point in having this discussion here, so I should move it to Rejected. If you are in fact still serious about having this submitted the normal way, then forgive me, but your last post implied the opposite.

We owe a debt of gratitude for your willingness to submit this if you get your clarification, and humbly hope said clarification will be clarified to meet your clarification needs so you can assist in the submital process.

Its always nice to see such official support for a truly great idea that is widely supported, and always makes me wonder why I get sick of this place so often and move on.

Like the idea Jef.