[xml] Killer Decay Neutrals

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[xml] Killer Decay Neutrals

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:52 am

Killer Decay Neutrals
Concise description:
  • Add the XML code to allow killer neutrals to decay by a set amount each turn. When taken or reach 0, they revert to original amount and start again

Specifics/Details:
  • Example for classic map.
    A border between Cape Town and Perth set at 25 neutrals with a decay of 5 per round. So round one 25 neutrals and it is not taken, round 2 is 20, round 3 is 15, round 4 is 10. Who ever has Oceania for a short while would have to defend from 2 positions or could attack out from two positions. Once taken or if it is ignored, when it reaches 0 in round 6, it would go back to 25 and start again. Like now, the neutral would be set by the map maker as well as the decay amount.

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • Another way to allow map makers to give a different experience to players. Map makers would be able to introduce a time keeping to the maps. So Germany would not be able to attack Russia till Round 5 or the USA would not be able to join the war till round 8. These short windows of opportunity would force some changes in game play style as players would have to be careful not to miss out.
Last edited by koontz1973 on Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:53 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: [xml] Killer Decay Neutrals

Postby Metsfanmax on Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:12 am

Great idea, koontz. I'm a little uncertain about one specific thing though -- I'm not sure I like the reset. I might prefer it if, once the decay happened, the territory just stopped at one army. What do you think?
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Re: [xml] Killer Decay Neutrals

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:22 am

Metsfanmax wrote:Great idea, koontz. I'm a little uncertain about one specific thing though -- I'm not sure I like the reset. I might prefer it if, once the decay happened, the territory just stopped at one army. What do you think?

This can already be done with decaying regions. Place a decay onto a region and it goes to one then stops. This is done on maps already, Rorke's Drift, DustBowl etc.

The slight difference with this is it resets to the original neutral number after being taken or reaches zero. A great thing about killers is that they make players think, decaying regions also stop players stacking, this would allow both ideas from what we can already do with neutrals and just add a slight difference. The impact on maps would be huge though. A time line can be added to maps for the very first time, secret passages can be opened up, magic spells can be gained, all after set times and for limited time as well. Winning conditions can be set with huge neutrals, only to come down to small amounts after round 5 or 6.
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Re: [xml] Killer Decay Neutrals

Postby Metsfanmax on Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:40 am

Oh ok -- I didn't quite understand initially. It sounds like you're requesting something similar to Tanarri's suggestion that you posted in:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=196353

And the only difference between your suggestion and that one is that you want the territory to reset to its initial number and not to 1, correct?
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Re: [xml] Killer Decay Neutrals

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:03 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:Oh ok -- I didn't quite understand initially. It sounds like you're requesting something similar to Tanarri's suggestion that you posted in:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=196353

And the only difference between your suggestion and that one is that you want the territory to reset to its initial number and not to 1, correct?


Similar yes, but the difference is big. What Tanarri is suggesting is that decaying regions do not stop at 1 like now but an option should be made to allow a players troops to turn neutral. Both ideas are very similar to what we have now both both allow for a more flexible approach to map making. The stories woven into each map now would become much bigger if all 3 neutral ideas would be allowed to happen.

-=- Tanarri -=- wants Troops to decay to 0 and not stop at one.
koontz1973 wants killer neutrals to decay.
Kabanellas wants killer neutrals to be part of bonuses.

Killer neutrals cannot decay now, making them decay would be huge. The three suggestions are all similar in the way that neutrals are dealt with. All three suggestions are just asking for a slight difference to be added (not changed). So when it comes to xml updates, the three can really/should be counted as one idea, but all three are very different in what can be accomplished on a map. My few examples are what I would do now with maps I have in the foundry, but over time, like current xml features, map makers will think up new and different ways to make them work.

The one thing that I always here from players in the foundry is how often we make the same thing. well here are three very easy options to implement that should allow a huge amount of differences with maps.
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Re: [xml] Killer Decay Neutrals

Postby Metsfanmax on Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:09 pm

These three are similar enough that I would want them all rolled into the same update, since there's no real downside to any of them but would increase the richness of the game play. It sounds like you are in agreement that you would want to see all of those implemented?
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Re: [xml] Killer Decay Neutrals

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:32 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:These three are similar enough that I would want them all rolled into the same update, since there's no real downside to any of them but would increase the richness of the game play. It sounds like you are in agreement that you would want to see all of those implemented?

I would.

Having any one would be great, but all three would be fantastic. They all deal with the same issue (neutrals) missing any one or two out would be sort of pointless.

The way we play now, with over 200 maps, it is becoming repetitious. This would allow so many different ideas to flow out of the foundry, it might take a year before any of these ideas come to any great maps, but they will come and we will play them.

Conditional borders took 6 months before the first map with them came out. So expect any map with these to be about the same length of time. But CBs are now coming into play in a big way. These 3 will do the same and change the way we make maps forever.

The only down side to any xml update is that once we get it we do not use it (I cannot force map makers to use them :twisted: ).
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Re: [xml] Killer Decay Neutrals

Postby 40kguy on Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:22 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:These three are similar enough that I would want them all rolled into the same update, since there's no real downside to any of them but would increase the richness of the game play. It sounds like you are in agreement that you would want to see all of those implemented?

I would.

Having any one would be great, but all three would be fantastic. They all deal with the same issue (neutrals) missing any one or two out would be sort of pointless.

The way we play now, with over 200 maps, it is becoming repetitious. This would allow so many different ideas to flow out of the foundry, it might take a year before any of these ideas come to any great maps, but they will come and we will play them.

Conditional borders took 6 months before the first map with them came out. So expect any map with these to be about the same length of time. But CBs are now coming into play in a big way. These 3 will do the same and change the way we make maps forever.

The only down side to any xml update is that once we get it we do not use it (I cannot force map makers to use them :twisted: ).

I like the type of maps you make.

All the geographic maps are very simple and once you master one you can master them all. Its more fun when its different bonuses and you cant just walk in and know how to play the map.

I like all 3, I would definitely play on these maps.
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Re: [xml] Killer Decay Neutrals

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:30 am

Good to here 40k.

Found a forth neutrals suggestion. Whilst not an xml issue, it might be worth adding to the bunble. How about submitting all 4 as a merged single suggestion?

Troops to decay to 0.
killer neutrals to decay.
killer neutrals to be part of bonuses.
Reinforcing Neutrals
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Re: [xml] Killer Decay Neutrals

Postby agentcom on Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:05 pm

I think the fourth one has problems, but I agree with you on the first three. I didn't particularly care for your idea here until you mentioned some of the ways that it could be used. A "secret" passage that gradually opens throughout the game (and then maybe closes up and starts over) sounds awesome. It could really bring some very diverse new maps.

One more idea to add to yours: You could have a map (maybe a 1v1 map, but could do any size) that has a bunch of base areas like Feudal Epic that are separated by 100 decaying neutrals that go down 5 per round. You'd balance grabbing bonuses inside your region with the looming threat of that wall being breached.

As for the suggestions being "rolled into one" they won't be all merged together, of course. (I'm sure that's not what you're saying.) But we do look at things as a whole and thanks for bringing these all together. (Think of the invite updates: they had all been "grouped together" by the TDs and were worked on concurrently.)
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Re: [xml] Killer Decay Neutrals

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:04 am

agentcom wrote:One more idea to add to yours: You could have a map (maybe a 1v1 map, but could do any size) that has a bunch of base areas like Feudal Epic that are separated by 100 decaying neutrals that go down 5 per round. You'd balance grabbing bonuses inside your region with the looming threat of that wall being breached.


And the ideas keep coming. I do agree with you over the forth one with it having a few problems (neutrals are given out randomly in games), but it has some potential for conquest style maps. Out side of that, it would not get used much.
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Re: [xml] Killer Decay Neutrals

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:03 am

Again, no real objections and could help make for a good map great. :D
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Re: [xml] Killer Decay Neutrals

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:28 pm

Time for the old bumping thread time guys.Image
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Re: [xml] Killer Decay Neutrals

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:34 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Time for the old bumping thread time guys.Image


This time I have reason. Brought all neutral options together so who ever is looking over these threads can get a clear and concise idea on what is what and by whom. Also, these 4 really do belong as one.
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Re: [xml] All things and more to do with neutrals

Postby JamesKer1 on Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:11 pm

Two foundry members want it, including a head of cartos, the head of suggestions wants a package, so a package it shall be, and it should be sent in since it's important enough to get all of this official support. :)

STICKIED with the intent to submit very soon.
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Re: [xml] All things and more to do with neutrals

Postby chapcrap on Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:52 pm

I think it's best to keep each XML suggestion as it's own separate thread. I appreciate a list of XML suggestions, but each one should be taken individually I think.
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Re: [xml] Killer Decay Neutrals

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:53 am

chapcrap wrote:I think it's best to keep each XML suggestion as it's own separate thread. I appreciate a list of XML suggestions, but each one should be taken individually I think.

Done.
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Re: [xml] Killer Decay Neutrals

Postby JamesKer1 on Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:55 am

Awesome. SUBMITTED
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Re: [xml] Killer Decay Neutrals

Postby thenobodies80 on Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:20 am

koontz1973 wrote:Killer Decay Neutrals
Concise description:
  • Add the XML code to allow killer neutrals to decay by a set amount each turn. When taken or reach 0, they revert to original amount and start again



Personally I would left out the reach 0 option.
Imo it's easier to have the same KN behaviour we have now. What's the difference? You suggest a killer neutral decay, instead i suggest to apply the decay to neutrals, so the bonus tag, maybe adding a option, take effect also if the region is neutral. Then, when and if taken it act like a normal killer neutral.
So something like:

Code: Select all
<territory>
...
<bonus neutral="yes">-5</bonus>
<neutral killer="yes">15</neutral>
...
</territory>


Maybe not exactly the future code, but at least in that way you have just to add a option to the bonus tag into the territory to tell to the game it needs to apply the negative bonus anyway. Obviously in this way when the regions reach 1 it stays with that value untill you take it. if you take it, it reverts to 15 neutral like a normal KN.

What do you think?

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Re: [xml] Killer Decay Neutrals

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:47 am

koontz justifies that choice at the end:

These short windows of opportunity would force some changes in game play style as players would have to be careful not to miss out.


He specifically wanted this gameplay because it forces you to time your moves so that you get in while the KN's are low in strength. I think this is different enough from what we have now, and innovative enough, that we should leave it as is.
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Re: [xml] Killer Decay Neutrals

Postby thenobodies80 on Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:56 am

Metsfanmax wrote:koontz justifies that choice at the end:

These short windows of opportunity would force some changes in game play style as players would have to be careful not to miss out.


He specifically wanted this gameplay because it forces you to time your moves so that you get in while the KN's are low in strength. I think this is different enough from what we have now, and innovative enough, that we should leave it as is.


I saw that, just xml features must be thought not with a specific map in mind. What i'm suggesting can do what koontz wants anyway but it can be used for more situations. We can't have a feature for each map, we should have a feature that allow to make many different maps.
The point of what i'm saying is in not controlling killer neutral (being an option) but bonuses (being a tag), however....
koontz?

edit: this one joined with the tanarri one can do the trick koontz wants without make the code too tricky. ;)

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Re: [xml] Killer Decay Neutrals

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:09 am

Archived. We have reached the conclusion that this effect can be achieved by a clever combination of increasing/decreasing neutrals, and "decay to neutral."
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