Less Fog of War in Game Log

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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby insomniacdude on Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:24 am

I've always been against the current FOW set-up because a player who is in front of the map all day to see what happens will do better than a person who does not. The former will have a better idea of who attacked where and what he or she lost, whereas the latter won't have a clue because of the log's incomplete information. I'm strictly against using time as an advantage or disadvantage in games. Why should the casual player who only checks the site once a day have a harder time with a game than people who might check up on the game four or five times before their next turn?
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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby wicked on Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:35 am

IIRC from the previous conversations about this, Lack wanted there to be partial information available to those who payed attention, akin to "gathering intelligence". Like I said, go back and search/read, as it's been suggested before.

Edit, here we go, took 1 minute...

lackattack wrote:The log gives hints, think of it as an intelligence report. The FoW games have elements of memory (from the map) and deduction (from the log). I've heard people say the log shows too much and too little. I don't think we can please everyone!
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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby Ditocoaf on Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:42 pm

wicked wrote:IIRC from the previous conversations about this, Lack wanted there to be partial information available to those who payed attention, akin to "gathering intelligence". Like I said, go back and search/read, as it's been suggested before.

Edit, here we go, took 1 minute...

lackattack wrote:The log gives hints, think of it as an intelligence report. The FoW games have elements of memory (from the map) and deduction (from the log). I've heard people say the log shows too much and too little. I don't think we can please everyone!

It's not that it shows too much or too little, it's that it shows the wrong information. And the partial information that you can gain by watching is fine, but the illogical information you gain by reading the log is ridiculous. As greenoaks said, in true FoW: -
i should not know two distant armies i can not see fought.
i should not know that player a is receiving a bonus if i can not see every territory required to get that bonus.
i should know the names of any territory i just lost.
i should know the names of territories that change hands if they border one of mine.
The top two pieces of information, written in the log, should not be there. If lack wants the bottom two to be rewards for being glued to your computer, then I guess that's fine. But the top two definitely should go.
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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby greenoaks on Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:06 pm

i know that is what i said true FoW would be like but i really only want the third one. to know what territory i just lost. i can understand the log being there to guide and assist those who pay attention but on most maps my initial forces are randomly dropped and not recorded anywhere.

yes i know i can visit every game before it is my first turn and write down every territory i have just in case i am attacked prior to that first turn of mine. do you really want players to be doing that. i suppose an alternative would be if the log listed the starting territories for each player like it does now, showing the names for me, ? for what others have.
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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby Joodoo on Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:55 am

Ditocoaf wrote:This has been broken off from the other Fog of War suggestion thread; I will describe the specifics using all the quotes from there.

Concise description:
  • Change a few aspects of Fog of War in order for it to be more fitting.
Specifics:
Thezzaruz wrote: I ... think it is stupid not to be told what territories you loose to other players. I understand that I can only see my own territories and those adjacent but that has to be checked when something happens and not when I view the log. As it is now you get situations when as soon as you loose a territory (that is isolated from the rest of your army) you "forget" that you ever held it and it comes up as you lost "?" to someone.
greenoaks wrote: i agree. i think it is stupid that my intelligence advisors (the log) know that player x conquered a territory from player y but they can not remember what the name of the territory i just lost was.
Ditocoaf wrote: This is something I have considered suggesting myself, actually. The following two things do not make sense:

1) You are player A. Player B owns territory 2, and you own neighboring territory 1. If player B attacks and conquers territory 1 from territory 2, why can not you see that battle in the feed ? You could easily find this information by watching the board all day, so if is s potential abusive info, then you could already get that info. But it would be much more convenient to me to be able to see which of my territories were attacked, in what order, when looking at the log the next day. As the commander of an army, how would I not know that I used to have a territory that was taken?

2) Player B attacks player C's territory and conquers it. Why can you see this? . I use this all the time to determine where my opponents are; and while it is certainly helpful, it is not really in keeping with the concept of Fog of War. As the commander of an army, how would I know that two distant enemy territories were having a battle (if I did not even know which they were)?
And finally, my favorite:
greenoaks wrote: in true FoW: -
i should not know two distant armies i can not see fought.
i should not know that player a is receiving a bonus if i can not see every territory required to get that bonus.
i should know the names of any territory i just lost.
i should know the names of territories that change hands if they border one of mine.
If too many people think that the current FoW is worth keeping, then perhaps this could be implemented as an option, but I have not seen anybody defending it yet.

This will improve the following aspects of the site:
  • Information that you now can only see by watching the map will be availible by watching the log.
  • Information that you can not see by watching the map, will no longer be available in the log.
  • A more logical Fog of War will improve enjoyment of the game for many.
  • Strategy will be improved, because while now you can deduce the locations of your opponents by the log, with this you would actually be forced to fight blind, preparing for any instance.


I'm okay with the current fog-of-war. If we take what greenoaks said about the true FoW, the FoW right now would be an extended version. Maybe they should just make another FoW option that follows greenoaks' true FoW.
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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby yeti_c on Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:01 am

So we have

"Sunny" - "Foggy" - "Pea Souper"

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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby Thezzaruz on Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:43 pm

greenoaks wrote:i know that is what i said true FoW would be like but i really only want the third one. to know what territory i just lost.


Yea I fully agree, this is the important one.


lackattack wrote:The log gives hints, think of it as an intelligence report. The FoW games have elements of memory (from the map) and deduction (from the log). I've heard people say the log shows too much and too little. I don't think we can please everyone!


But that's just BS. Expecting people to log on loads of times a day just to get info on what territories they hold/have lost is just plain stupid.
Oh well, I don't play FoW games atm so it's not like I'll suddenly will miss them.
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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby Ditocoaf on Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:11 pm

yeti_c wrote:So we have

"Sunny" - "Foggy" - "Pea Souper"

C.

meh, not really. The changes would put some things into the log*, and take some things out. So it'd just be different. (*i.e., if I started with a territory, but lost it before my first look at the map, I'll be able to see what it was.)
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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby Ditocoaf on Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:14 pm

wicked wrote:IIRC from the previous conversations about this, Lack wanted there to be partial information available to those who payed attention, akin to "gathering intelligence". Like I said, go back and search/read, as it's been suggested before.

I realize that this has been discussed before, with the outcome of, "well, let's just like what we have, at least for now." I don't really think it's been suggested in quite this way before, though--and even so, I'd still like to make another push for it.

I would define 'success' here, as just getting it tentatively added to the very end of lack's incredibly long to-do list. Just so long as it's something that 'will' be done in the indefinite future; I'm not impatient.
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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby vrex on Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:40 pm

indeed even getting in at the end of an absurdly long line is appreciated... greenoaks new FOW makes sense to me... if we dont want to kill the current one we can just add it as an option...those who want to play it can and so on...just like assassin vs terminate vs standard lol...oh and by the way using the official suggestion form might help...

on a completely off topic note: IN thread may be receiving a new post from cicero sometime tomorrow or the next day ditocoaf :wink:
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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby Ditocoaf on Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:21 am

vrex wrote:on a completely off topic note: IN thread may be receiving a new post from cicero sometime tomorrow or the next day ditocoaf :wink:

yeah; I really hate that I missed the summit. Looking forward to the results, though.
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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby RobinJ on Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:45 pm

You've got to remember Bob here though. You're (meaning yeti) goning to have to take out a lot of the hints it gives in FoW if you want this to really work. For example, knowing how many territories a person has is a great help
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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby greenoaks on Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:14 am

RobinJ wrote:You've got to remember Bob here though. You're (meaning yeti) goning to have to take out a lot of the hints it gives in FoW if you want this to really work. For example, knowing how many territories a person has is a great help
but then so is being able to see every territory and the size of the armies on them.

now i don't know how great it would be to play not knowing anything about an opponent except what you can see beside you but RL battles use to be like that. (maps could be made with raised terts such as mountains or hills that could see 2 terts away much like the cavalry in waterloo or castles in Feudal War can)

almost all games i now play are FoW so i do like that style, it is just the inconsistency in that format where i don't know the name of what i just lost but i do know the name of who i lost it to that bugs me.
Last edited by greenoaks on Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby yeti_c on Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:07 am

RobinJ wrote:You've got to remember Bob here though. You're (meaning yeti) goning to have to take out a lot of the hints it gives in FoW if you want this to really work. For example, knowing how many territories a person has is a great help


It depends on whether we change the current FOW - or add a NEW FOW...

If the latter - then yes - some will need recoding/removing... (not really a problem though)

Depending on how the new log (if there is going to be such a thing) comes along - then it will depend on what BOB can determine.

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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby vrex on Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:50 pm

meaning what bob can figure out from downloading the log?
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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby yeti_c on Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:07 am

vrex wrote:meaning what bob can figure out from downloading the log?


Of course.

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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby superkarn on Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:09 am

greenoaks wrote: in true FoW: -
i should not know two distant armies i can not see fought.
i should not know that player a is receiving a bonus if i can not see every territory required to get that bonus.
i should know the names of any territory i just lost.
i should know the names of territories that change hands if they border one of mine.

I'm jumping on the band wagon on this one =D>
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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby Ditocoaf on Sat May 03, 2008 1:41 pm

I'm going to have to bump this; I forgot it had been falling.

It's either bump, or make a new thread, so there's no need to complain.
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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby Herakilla on Sat May 03, 2008 3:01 pm

Ditocoaf wrote:I'm going to have to bump this; I forgot it had been falling.

It's either bump, or make a new thread, so there's no need to complain.


there is need to complain because there already is a new thread...
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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby greenoaks on Sat May 03, 2008 3:33 pm

then it should be merged onto the end of this one.
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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby bringiton4 on Mon May 05, 2008 1:03 pm

I really like this suggestion - I'm all for it
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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon May 05, 2008 2:48 pm

I am not sure I understand why you can show the countries for me only when I am attacking and not when I am the one being defeated?

Personally, the change I would most like to see is to NOT show which territories are on cashed cards. That can really give things away in some games (especially Fuedal and the Realms maps, where actually finding your opponent is half of the game).
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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby Mr_Adams on Mon May 19, 2008 9:15 pm

alot of people complain that you are seeing to little information, but I would argue that we are seeing not to little, not to much, but the WRONG information. how would I know that yellow attacks and conquers a territory from blue on the other side of the map in feudal war? how would I know green has a bonus? or that red cashed a set or got a card? or that grey deployed his armies on 3 seperate territories this turn instead of one big drop?

On the other side ofthe coin, if I look back in the log, why can't I remeber WHICH territories were taken from me, and by whom? Or what territories I had, but have lost? So don't give us MORE information, give us DIFFRENT information...
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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby lancehoch on Mon May 19, 2008 11:46 pm

I agree with Mr_Adams. I think the log should look something like:

If you cannot see the any of the territories involved:
Bonus armies should not appear in the game log
Reinforcements should not appear in the game log
Deployed armies should not appear in the game log
Attacking should not appear in the game log
Fortifications should not appear in the game log

If you can see all the territories involved:
DATE - PLAYER gets bonus of X armies added to Y
DATE - PLAYER deployed X armies on Y
DATE - PLAYER attacked X from Y and conquered it from PLAYER2

If you can only see the attacking territory:
DATE - PLAYER attacked ? from Y and conquered it from ?
If you can only see the attacked territory:
DATE - PLAYER attacked X from ? and conquered it from PLAYER2

For bombardment:
If neither territory is seen:
No game log entry
If bombarding territory is seen:
DATE - PLAYER attacked ? from Y and conquered it from ?
If bombarded territory is seen:
DATE - PLAYER bombarded X from ? and annihilated PLAYER2's armies

If you can see all the territories on a fortification route (this may be harder to code, but seems necessary otherwise you know which territories may be owned)
DATE - PLAYER fortified X with Y armies from Z

Cards should not be put into the game log, other than your own cards.
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Re: Fog of War changes

Postby Thezzaruz on Tue May 20, 2008 5:19 am

Mr_Adams wrote:alot of people complain that you are seeing to little information, but I would argue that we are seeing not to little, not to much, but the WRONG information.


We know, that point has been argued by myself and others (greenoaks felt strongly about this IIRC).


Could the mods merge this and the other FoW threads from the last months???
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