Changing the way we score

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Changing the way we score

Postby Fruitcake on Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:39 pm

This has spun out of the JR thread of not giving points for certain levels of opponent.

My raw thought is to adjust the scoreboard to have two tiers.

The first which shows their total score, the second to show their score and rank by applying their relative rank. So a 5000 point player with a relative rank of 0.6 would actually only be a Colonel on 3000 points.

Now let's see how this would affect game play.

Say this 5000 (3000) point player takes on a 2000 point player with an RR of 0.8 (so has a ranking of 1600) and beats him. He presently wins 8 points. However, if his relative rank then dropped by 0.001 so that it then read 0.599 his ranking score would be 5008x0.599=3000 so he would, in fact have gained no points towards his promotion. Meanwhile should the 2000 point player see a commensurate rise in his rank to 0.801 his ranking score would then be 1992x0.801=1596 so he would actually only lose 4 points.

Take this a stage further....

This same 5008 point player then takes on a 1000 point player with an RR of 1.0 and beats him. He receives a gross 4 points. However, this will have a greater impact on his RR. Now even if it still just reduces his RR by a further 0.001 then he would now have a ranking total of 5012x0.598=2997. In other words this win was not worth taking.

Using myself as an example:
My score as at writing is 3843
My RR is 0.862
So my relative rank is 3843x0.862=3313 (Brig status)

If I was to take on khushhal, presently no. 250 on the scoreboard, with 2514 points, and beat him, I would earn 13 points.

With this system, there is little likelihood my RR would be affected by more than a single point due to the closeness of our points, so I would, in all likelihood, gain a net 12 points to my RR score. With a present RR of 0.815 khushhal is unlikely to gain by more than a point.

However, if I was to swoop down to say slayer6, presently no. 12502 on the scoreboard, with 988 points and win a game, my points earnt would be 5. However, since his score is so much lower, there is every chance it would affect my RR. If it was affected by the .001 mentioned earlier, my RR would then be 0.861, so my although my 'score' would increase to 3848, my RR score would now be 3848x0.861=3313 it is then obvious that to 'farm' in the newer sense of the word would not be worthwhile in any way to me as my scoreboard rank/points would not change.

Issues surrounding this:

Stopping low ranks 'ambushing' high ranks when it would have the effect of above. I am sure it would not take a great deal of coding to show on the game finder page what the net effect on your score would be if you won any particular game, just as it would not take a lot of coding to block 'ambushing'.

Some benefits:

Scoreboard is adjusted to show a more meritocratic hierarchy of players.
High ranked players are then encouraged to play alongside low rank players in team games to ensure a win situation. Those low rankers would then learn more than they do constantly swimming around the same pool.
High ranked 'lean machine' teams (and I can be accused of running those I fully admit) would not be able to take series of games and points without suffering in the process.
Teams would ebb and flow as low ranks gained in points, because the efficiency of those teams points pick ups steadily diminishes over time.
It would reduce the reward for 'easy kills', to the point that it is not a viable option.

I am sure many will find problems within what I have laid out, but I have long felt that the RR is a truer way of seeing players for what they are. It would also resolve the long term argument about 'farming' in one quick sweep.

However, there is a down side. The argument that senior ranks do not play junior ranks could gain credence. To this I answer simply that as can be seen from my figures, it would still be viable for a rank/score holder such as me to play anyone over 1250 points if I was prepared to risk that level of points, and I would! After all, what is the point of holding such a level if you are not. I am a team player, this is what I enjoy, so there may well be issues regarding this, but I am sure within this community there are enough sound minds to resolve any of those issues.

Thank you for your time in reading this.
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Re: Changing the way we score

Postby Timminz on Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:45 am

I think this makes a lot of sense. I can't think of any example that would make it a bad idea. There is the issue of the missing logs, but the more time passes since then, the less significant the missing logs become. If relative rank was included in the coding of the site, rather than as just part of an add-on, any logs that might go missing in the future wouldn't matter, since the information would have already been taken from them. The same as no one's score was affected when the logs went missing, no one's relative rank would be affected if it happened again. If this suggestion were implemented, the people hoping to make the top of the scoreboard would need to play other high-ranked players to achieve it. As with any ranked sport/game, I feel that for someone to be considered "the best", they should be able to regularly beat the other people near them in score. This suggestion seems as though it would accomplish that.

please pardon the stream-of-consciousness-ness of this post. I just got out of bed.
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Re: Changing the way we score

Postby Jeff Hardy on Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:20 am

this would just stop high ranks setting up anything but private games because if a low rank joined they would be in a lose-lose situation

relative rank is stupid anyway, i could drop to cook and easily get my map rank up to 2.0 then get up to colonel and be a field marshal
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Re: Changing the way we score

Postby Fruitcake on Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:28 am

Jeff Hardy wrote:this would just stop high ranks setting up anything but private games because if a low rank joined they would be in a lose-lose situation


No they wouldn't. As I mentioned in the original post, it would be a matter of coding to ensure that no low rank could 'ambush' a high rank to a lose lose situation. But as long as the high rank could gain 1 point in their RR scoreboard rank then the game should be allowed as it is now. The only difference would be that the bar for that level would be raised to near a 1000 points scorer.
Issues surrounding this:

Stopping low ranks 'ambushing' high ranks when it would have the effect of above. I am sure it would not take a great deal of coding to show on the game finder page what the net effect on your score would be if you won any particular game, just as it would not take a lot of coding to block 'ambushing'.
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Re: Changing the way we score

Postby Jeff Hardy on Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:33 am

whats the problem with the current system anyway?

if i play 5 games against captains and majors i have to win 4 out of 5 just to break even (which is hard, captains and majors arent exactly noobs and dice/drop can easily give them the game)

so playing lower ranks doesnt exactly ensure that you get a high rank, you have to have skills too
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Re: Changing the way we score

Postby Fruitcake on Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:40 am

Jeff Hardy wrote:whats the problem with the current system anyway?

if i play 5 games against captains and majors i have to win 4 out of 5 just to break even (which is hard, captains and majors arent exactly noobs and dice/drop can easily give them the game)

so playing lower ranks doesnt exactly ensure that you get a high rank, you have to have skills too


There is nothing wrong with the system. I am responding to a greater and greater groundswell of opinion that is calling for change. I am happy (obviously!) with the current system, but if it is going to be changed then I would rather be a part of the change and have some influence over it than be dragged kicking and screaming to it.

On your last point, I would take slight issue. If you have a modicum of skill and only play certain players who make the craziest moves you will generally find yourself rising higher than you should. The way I have proffered would ensure that playing style was harder to gain by.

However, it may be seen to make the scoreboard too elitist in approach, but seeing as it would have the effect of flattening it quite dramatically I do not see that as a long term problem.
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Re: Changing the way we score

Postby Jeff Hardy on Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:45 am

Fruitcake wrote:On your last point, I would take slight issue. If you have a modicum of skill and only play certain players who make the craziest moves you will generally find yourself rising higher than you should. The way I have proffered would ensure that playing style was harder to gain by.

thats only assuming you only join games or make private games and invite the type of player you just discribed. very, very few can be bothered to do that (i certainly couldnt be)
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Re: Changing the way we score

Postby Fruitcake on Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:56 am

Jeff Hardy wrote:
Fruitcake wrote:On your last point, I would take slight issue. If you have a modicum of skill and only play certain players who make the craziest moves you will generally find yourself rising higher than you should. The way I have proffered would ensure that playing style was harder to gain by.

thats only assuming you only join games or make private games and invite the type of player you just discribed. very, very few can be bothered to do that (i certainly couldnt be)


I am sure you couldn't be bothered, and I am also certain you wouldn't. However, due to recent history this issue has arisen, so all the 'senior' ranked players need to look at what is happening. You only have to review the slow but inexorable increase in the number of threads about these things.
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Re: Changing the way we score

Postby Jeff Hardy on Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:04 am

how about no points for private games against lower ranks...?
seems to me it would be a far better solution
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Re: Changing the way we score

Postby Timminz on Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:11 am

Jeff Hardy wrote:how about no points for private games against lower ranks...?
seems to me it would be a far better solution

What would this solve?
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Re: Changing the way we score

Postby Fruitcake on Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:17 am

Jeff Hardy wrote:how about no points for private games against lower ranks...?
seems to me it would be a far better solution


I can only quote your words on JRs thread....

Jeff Hardy wrote:it would be extremely easy to get medals without losing rank if this idea goes through
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Re: Changing the way we score

Postby Wolffystyle on Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:36 am

Fruitcake wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the system. I am responding to a greater and greater groundswell of opinion that is calling for change. I am happy (obviously!) with the current system, but if it is going to be changed then I would rather be a part of the change and have some influence over it than be dragged kicking and screaming to it.


Your plan is much more thorough and provident than any others I have seen in the forums.

I'm glad, however, that you've taken the time to point out the 'ambushing' issue. Clearly, no scoring system will ever be perfect. Innate to any system ranking as many as 20,000 unique users is the inextricable lack of unanimity.

The current system, in my humblest of opinions, functions. But you're exactly right about what I've quoted above. It's much better to be proactive. If reform is required, desired or finally transpired, let's take our part to avoid a misfire.

In almost all collegiate and major league sports in the United States, and from what I know about the Premier Soccer Leagues in Europe, the best play the best, and rankings and league tier are influenced heavily by relative rank. One needs look no further that collegiate Football or Basketball in the United States. A second tier team may have a perfect record, but it is reasonable to rank them behind a top tier team with a better relative rank.**

In short, while there is not a single answer to appease all, it will always be best to err on acumen. There's too much corn in all that other proverbial shit I've seen around the forums. Leave it as it is, or utilize a coded relative rank.

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Re: Changing the way we score

Postby Jeff Hardy on Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:19 pm

Fruitcake wrote:
Jeff Hardy wrote:how about no points for private games against lower ranks...?
seems to me it would be a far better solution


I can only quote your words on JRs thread....

Jeff Hardy wrote:it would be extremely easy to get medals without losing rank if this idea goes through

i was actually only pointing out a side effect to his solution i thought of while reading the thread, not trying to bash his idea though

but you are right, what i said in this thread would have the same effect as JRs idea
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Re: Changing the way we score

Postby sailorseal on Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:34 pm

I agree the scoring and ranking system needs a change but not like this. Also I think the scoreboard has to change also. I am sick of being listed below a guy who has won his first ten games. I think many other factors need to be addressed...
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Re: Changing the way we score

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:20 pm

Fruitcake wrote:There is nothing wrong with the system. I am responding to a greater and greater groundswell of opinion that is calling for change. I am happy (obviously!) with the current system, but if it is going to be changed then I would rather be a part of the change and have some influence over it than be dragged kicking and screaming to it.


You are very wise, in this regard.

For me personally, I don't really care much at all about "rank". However, I must admit that I AM curious as to how well I would be placed given that I generally play 7- and 8-player games (I've played smaller ones, but not regularly). Clearly, it's much more difficult to win those sorts of games than 1-vs-1. I play them because those are the sorts of games I enjoy, and I'm perfectly happy always being stuck at the enlisted ranks. But it would be nice to "see where I'm at", from a curiousity standpoint. It might also give me a better idea of who I could invite into games who fall nearer to my real skill-level than what is currently seen, which would be a nice benefit for me (from a selfish standpoint).
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