josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby Leehar on Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:03 pm

MoB Deadly wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:Game number(s):
Game 11960055*
11960154 - This one does not seem to be the correct game number.

Game 11960054

Lucky guess by transposing the 1 :lol:

comic boy wrote:The salient point is indeed that " Josko for Moonchild '' has happened an awful lot , that is indisputable and it is in the interests of all that it stops forthwith.

It is why this accusation is relevant, but doesn't necessarily have to be wrong.
The concern would be that this is an indication of Account Sharing, but I'm sure josko and co have done their utmost to try stay within the rules and morals of the guidelines, while being constrained by Moonchilds availability.
If anyone else had done the sitting, would there have been a problem? Perhaps not, since I suspect the primary issue is that it's josko doing the sitting, and thereby using it as a mechanism for gain
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:24 pm

MoB Deadly wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:Game number(s):

Game 11960113*
Game 11960055*
11960154 - This one does not seem to be the correct game number.
Game 11926485*
Game 11895784*
Game 11895783*
Game 11895782
Game 11859148
Game 11859147*
Game 11673703*
Game 11665183
Game 11590571
Game 11590570*


Thank you, fixed (Lee was right).
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby Foxglove on Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:38 pm

I'm sure it was totally and definitely an oversight due to his zealous enthusiasm to file this report, but there are several lies, untruths, fabrications - call them what you will - in CoF's original post. Some are mentioned previously in this thread, but these are the ones that have been identified so far (and no doubt additional exaggerations and untruths will follow):

1. Lacking internet access for 2 days per week is 28% of a week, not 38%.

2. "Game 11926485 - ... Also in this game josko covered for Sir Sebstar in Round 1 - yet by remarkable coincidence Sir Sebstar was able to return to CC just 41 minutes later and post here: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=135788&p=3961622#p3961622"

The difference between the turn and the forum post is 1481 minutes, not 41. A full day + 41 minutes.

3. "Gaining an unfair advantage in complex unlimited fort games" - the numbers prove this to be untrue.

Josko's score in unlimited team games (Triples+Quads) without Moonchild in team: 20/22 (91%)
Josko's score in unlimited team games (Triples+Quads) with Moonchild in team: 27/37 (73%)

Josko's score in all settings team games (Triples+Quads) with Moonchild in team 147/194 (76%)
Josko's score in all settings team games (Triples+Quads) total 263/353 (75%)

By these numbers, we would do best to not allow Moonchild to ever play in Josko's unlimited games. We have clearly received no advantage from doing so.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby comic boy on Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:42 pm

Leehar wrote:
MoB Deadly wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:Game number(s):
Game 11960055*
11960154 - This one does not seem to be the correct game number.

Game 11960054

Lucky guess by transposing the 1 :lol:

comic boy wrote:The salient point is indeed that " Josko for Moonchild '' has happened an awful lot , that is indisputable and it is in the interests of all that it stops forthwith.

It is why this accusation is relevant, but doesn't necessarily have to be wrong.
The concern would be that this is an indication of Account Sharing, but I'm sure josko and co have done their utmost to try stay within the rules and morals of the guidelines, while being constrained by Moonchilds availability.
If anyone else had done the sitting, would there have been a problem? Perhaps not, since I suspect the primary issue is that it's josko doing the sitting, and thereby using it as a mechanism for gain


There are 2 issues at hand here , the first is that Moonchild is entering ( or being entered ) into games in the full knowledge that he will likely not be available for certain turns. This may not constitute cheating but it surely goes against the spirit of the game and I cannot believe that admin would not wish to remark on this.
The second issue is rather more sinister , the question of whether the sitting has been manipulated to gain advantage. Consider that these games happen to be on Joskos favoured settings , that the sitting often occurs on the crucial first turn and that it is always Josko who takes the turn . Lets be honest its too regular and consistent to be a coincidence , advantage is being taken !
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:53 pm

>Sir Sebstar. I'm not mistaken in my calculations. You were posting in the forum just 41 minutes after your turn would have expired. Hence my comment 'yet by remarkable coincidence' as it serves as another example of josko covering the opening move in an unlimited forts game in addition to the one he had already played - in the same game - for Moonchild.

It was a time when both josko and Moonchild were under the Croatia flag - so who actually knows how long this sitting has gone on for - yet with the former's move to Japan and under a different flag it's another remarkable coincidence perhaps that Moonchild no longer has Internet other than from his workplace and that there's a standing arrangement for josko to cover him at all other times.

And to those who wish to quibble about the 38%......either we take josko's word that Moonchild only has access to CC from work (which from 9am Monday to 5pm Friday is 62% of the week, hence 38% unavailable) or by your very own definition you're unwittingly implying that he can in fact spend longer than this at taking his own turns and therefore josko's sitting may have been unnecessary.

The crux of the matter here is since when is it acceptable to keep fielding a player who is so regularly absent and to keep doing so for a period of, to date, three months? And had I not brought this to light how much longer would this convenient arrangement have gone on for? From now on can all clans start entering 'part time' players into their team games and have their best player cover one third of the time in perpetuity? No, thought not.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:18 pm

Foxglove wrote:I'm sure it was totally and definitely an oversight due to his zealous enthusiasm to file this report, but there are several lies, untruths, fabrications - call them what you will - in CoF's original post. Some are mentioned previously in this thread, but these are the ones that have been identified so far (and no doubt additional exaggerations and untruths will follow):

1. Lacking internet access for 2 days per week is 28% of a week, not 38%.

2. "Game 11926485 - ... Also in this game josko covered for Sir Sebstar in Round 1 - yet by remarkable coincidence Sir Sebstar was able to return to CC just 41 minutes later and post here: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=135788&p=3961622#p3961622"

The difference between the turn and the forum post is 1481 minutes, not 41. A full day + 41 minutes.

3. "Gaining an unfair advantage in complex unlimited fort games" - the numbers prove this to be untrue.

Josko's score in unlimited team games (Triples+Quads) without Moonchild in team: 20/22 (91%)
Josko's score in unlimited team games (Triples+Quads) with Moonchild in team: 27/37 (73%)

Josko's score in all settings team games (Triples+Quads) with Moonchild in team 147/194 (76%)
Josko's score in all settings team games (Triples+Quads) total 263/353 (75%)

By these numbers, we would do best to not allow Moonchild to ever play in Josko's unlimited games. We have clearly received no advantage from doing so.


Wrong on all counts Foxglove (see my post above), so perhaps it is you that is being a little overzealous and posting "lies, untruths and fabrications"

Yr Pt.1 - is a lie. Moonchild has no access other than from work, not just for two days out of seven. A big difference
Yr Pt.2 - is untrue. When my post says "41 minutes later", i.e. 'after the expiry of Sir Sebstar's turn'
Yr Pt.3 is a fabrication. Why take stats historically back to the start and not just look at the period for which this account sitting has been taking place? If you look at the games cited in the OP there are 13. Of these 13: five are won, one is lost, a further four are about to be won, and three have recently just started. That's a rather remarkable statistic of 9 wins out of 10 for Moonchild's team. It also coincides with over 60% of those 13 games having the first turn taken by someone else - a distinct advantage - and 100% of them having someone sit at some stage. It's rather irrefutable.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby Chewie1 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:23 pm

This looks like its going to be a biggie.

One thing I would add on clan sitting:

If someone is legitamately away on holiday emergencies etc..

Clan members cover.

It is very rare for the same clanmate to constantly cover your turns, several in a row possibly but not exclusively.
You do get exceptions if a certain clan member is an expert on a map, if the player is away and someone notices they are short on time a wall post could be used ie:

Hey chew, ***** is away he is up on Das schloss, I hate that Game I see your on and your the man on it.. can u cover for ***** pls.

But if its a regular map you get game chat that reads:
Chew for **
Josko for **
cof for **
chew again
Sir seb for **

Can u see the point I'm trying to make
Very rare for a clanmates turns to be always covered by 1 player therfore no smoke without fire.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby cowboyz on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:25 pm

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:lol: :lol: :lol: at this whole thread.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby deathcomesrippin on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:29 pm

Everyone can thank Cowboyz for ruining the fun for all.

Locked.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby deathcomesrippin on Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:25 am

Josko has been Noted for Account Sitting Abuse

I will point out that the only issue that concerns the C&A Mods in case like this is not the possible unfair account sitting issues for an actual clan game, but the account sitting itself. Josko never joined a game for Moonchild, and announced his taking of the turns and the reason why. So, this does not break any of the rules there. Josko only took turns on the dates he announced, and never logged into Moonchild apart from that. If Moonchild was really unable to take his turns, and he was never online on the weekends mentioned, then this is all above board and from the point of view of a punishable offense, completely okay. This in and of itself excludes Josko from actually suffering from an infraction. In fact, in the Clan Challenge against OSA, Josko informed the opposing Clan leaders of this and it was accepted. This it would seem might need to be an issue someone will need to take up with Clan Mods if they have a problem with it from a purely Clan influenced point of view.

The questionable side of this case, and the side that led to a Noted tag, is the established schedule of of someone taking turns for you, to the extent that it could have been going on for some time. One could easily assume this could be deliberate or another form of account sharing. For Josko and Moonchild to come out not suspicious or if any other players would be in the same situation as this, the right thing to do is to openly announce it as your signature or state it on your profile wall, and must be mentioned in all your games. Moonchild should announced that Josko (or whoever sits for him) will be there each and every weekend. The first step to stopping this as being looked at as abuse is to be completely open about it in every and all games.

This is a singularly unique case insofar as this is the only one we have seen with these exact issues, and with this we needed to take steps to assure that we covered all the ground necessary. I apologize for the delay in the case, and will open the case for awhile to let people respectfully comment. Thank you.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Leehar on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:11 am

This is actually pretty understandable.

The act of account-sitting that josko performed was reasonable and fair (which is basically because Moonchild wasn't available at all to take the turns).
But the noted tag comes about because this has been happening on a consistent and indeterminate nature, so it is somewhat dubious for a person to be covered ad infinitum.

I'm not sure I agree with the example to mitigate that, and the precedence it sets that if you're sitting for someone you need to post it on Wall and sig etc. I can kinda understand the reasoning, but then it needs to be disclosed in the Rules or FAQ as something needing doing, otherwise it's hard for anyone to know thats the extent they need to go to.
As far as I'm aware, and you've said it yourself, that Josko disclosed in Game Chat etc every time that he sat and the reason why (Moonchild unavailable on weekends). So doesn't that mean that everybody the sitting affected was made aware of the situation. Indeed, the clearing it up with OSA goes a step beyond that (And it's a matter for the Clan realm I guess), but all his actions have seemingly been above board and strived for transparency in each respect.
Therefore it seems a bit arbitrary to declare that he/Moon also needs to go the extra mile and post in Sig/Wall, when there's no way of knowing whether that is necessary.

With that being said, now that Josko/Moon have been Noted, is there no effect of the past history in that regard and a higher notch on the Escalating scale?
Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri/Moonchild/Rodion
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby SirSebstar on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:17 am

if i read this correctly this means that there is no sitting abuse going on. Thats great to have confirmed.
That josko should keep announcing when he sits for someone, as he has, is good to know. I don't know how to handle such a situation myself, should the need ever arise(never i hope) but now i know.
For myself i am glad this is now cleared up.

edit: leehar, i think the noted part is that it COULD go on indefinite, and thats not supposed to happen. if it is a definitive period, then its much less of a concern. Thats how i understand it anyways
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby deathcomesrippin on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:27 am

Leehar wrote:This is actually pretty understandable.

The act of account-sitting that josko performed was reasonable and fair (which is basically because Moonchild wasn't available at all to take the turns).
But the noted tag comes about because this has been happening on a consistent and indeterminate nature, so it is somewhat dubious for a person to be covered ad infinitum.

I'm not sure I agree with the example to mitigate that, and the precedence it sets that if you're sitting for someone you need to post it on Wall and sig etc. I can kinda understand the reasoning, but then it needs to be disclosed in the Rules or FAQ as something needing doing, otherwise it's hard for anyone to know thats the extent they need to go to.
As far as I'm aware, and you've said it yourself, that Josko disclosed in Game Chat etc every time that he sat and the reason why (Moonchild unavailable on weekends). So doesn't that mean that everybody the sitting affected was made aware of the situation. Indeed, the clearing it up with OSA goes a step beyond that (And it's a matter for the Clan realm I guess), but all his actions have seemingly been above board and strived for transparency in each respect.
Therefore it seems a bit arbitrary to declare that he/Moon also needs to go the extra mile and post in Sig/Wall, when there's no way of knowing whether that is necessary.

With that being said, now that Josko/Moon have been Noted, is there no effect of the past history in that regard and a higher notch on the Escalating scale?
Re: Account Sitting Abuse - josko.ri/Moonchild/Rodion


We're not telling him to do that with his sig and his wall, we just said it would be the right thing to do.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby niMic on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:27 am

I can't believe CoF was wrong.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Dako on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:44 am

niMic wrote:I can't believe CoF was wrong.

I think you should apply for C&A team with your forecasters skills.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby deathcomesrippin on Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:00 am

Dako wrote:
niMic wrote:I can't believe CoF was wrong.

I think you should apply for C&A team with your forecasters skills.


Both of you should either:

A) Keep your posts on the topic,

OR

B) Stop posting in here.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:04 am

Just for the record I'd like to clarify that this wasn't something I just trumped up in some vendetta or anything. On the contrary, I actually rather like Josko and have a great respect for his playing ability and also his overt honesty. I don't for one minute think he is abusing the system - rather he is perhaps the one being abused, i.e. too much is being asked of him.

I brought this to light because I think it is intrinsically wrong to field a player (Moonchild) who is unavailable to take his own turns for such a protracted length of time. We're not talking a week or two here - we're talking three months plus - and the real crux of the matter is that he is being entered into games that require a great deal of patience and knowledge on the part of the player (unlimited forts, first turn) and it's no coincidence that a majority of these moves have been taken by his sitter.

Can I take it from the precedent being set here that it's OK for all members of TOFU, myself excluded, to meet every weekend in a remote cabin where there's no internet access. I'll be covering all their turns, from end-of-work Friday until Monday morning. Oh....and this will go on forever.

See my point?
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby greenoaks on Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:12 am

so this would be ok.


i see my kids on the weekend. i go there straight from work Friday. i come home Sunday night.

would it be ok for me to have a sitter every weekend until they are in their late teens and have demanded their own life ? (neither is in high school)
Last edited by greenoaks on Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby deathcomesrippin on Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:38 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:Just for the record I'd like to clarify that this wasn't something I just trumped up in some vendetta or anything. On the contrary, I actually rather like Josko and have a great respect for his playing ability and also his overt honesty. I don't for one minute think he is abusing the system - rather he is perhaps the one being abused, i.e. too much is being asked of him.

I brought this to light because I think it is intrinsically wrong to field a player (Moonchild) who is unavailable to take his own turns for such a protracted length of time. We're not talking a week or two here - we're talking three months plus - and the real crux of the matter is that he is being entered into games that require a great deal of patience and knowledge on the part of the player (unlimited forts, first turn) and it's no coincidence that a majority of these moves have been taken by his sitter.

Can I take it from the precedent being set here that it's OK for all members of TOFU, myself excluded, to meet every weekend in a remote cabin where there's no internet access. I'll be covering all their turns, from end-of-work Friday until Monday morning. Oh....and this will go on forever.

See my point?


As for sitting, like we said, as long as it is announced and made clear that this would happen, and the sitter didn't break any of the Account Sitting rules (Forum Posting, joining/starting new games, playing as an opponent of the person you are sitting for) then this would be ok.

Strictly from our point of view, it is very difficult to point at where exactly they broke a rule. Moonchild never logged in over the weekends in question, pointing to the fact that he did not have internet access during those periods. As for clan concerns, this is out of our area, and C&A cannot comment on that from a position of any authority. I appreciate and understand the concerns put forth, and hope that there may be a way to control these kinds of things for clan matches in the future. As for us, though, it is not breaking our rules that we have in place at this time. To stop someone from literally playing the game and starting games or forcing them to deadbeat because of their predicament with internet access at certain points would be seen as unjustifiable and tyrannical from our end by the community as well. As for this from the clan side, this might be an issue to be brought to them for those concerned.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby josko.ri on Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:43 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:Can I take it from the precedent being set here that it's OK for all members of TOFU, myself excluded, to meet every weekend in a remote cabin where there's no internet access. I'll be covering all their turns, from end-of-work Friday until Monday morning. Oh....and this will go on forever.

See my point?


I will give you my opinion from clan viewpoint...

When I informed OSA that Moonchild will be away every weekend then I also said my own maximum number of games played in the challenge wil be 14 of 20 allowed. In other 6 games I included sitting for OzBloke in Hive quads, sitting for Moonchild every weekend, and some single turns sat by other players during their absence. I always try to make honest self evaluating of how much all my turns sat would be traslated in my real games played, in OSA challenge my prediction was all sitting together are not more than 6 games total so 14 games played plus all sittings done is not more than 20 games total. In AoC challenge, I evaluated that like 11 games played plus some turns sitting will not go over more than 13 games (33% of 41) which I am allowed to play by myself. This is approximate self evaluation, and I try to be always maximal fair when doing that self-sitting-turn-evaluation. This self evaluation I have always done since my the first clan war on CC. Whoever count my games played in any war, he can see that it has never reached maximal number of allowed games. I am the most often online of all KORT players so because of that reason (not because of reason of "better skill") they the most often rely on me to be sitter of someone.

On the contrary, Chariot of Fire in Clan League 4 Phase 2 played 28 of 28 maximal allowed games by himself, and in addition sat many turns for many players, intentionally hidding it, as proved in this thread viewtopic.php?f=239&t=174462. He has also played 21 of 20 allowed games in KORT TOFU war from October 2010. Ok, lets say that he played 20 of 20 games, because one more was honest mistake. But at the same time he was sitting for 12 players during that war, varying from one turn sit to many turns sit per player.

So to give my opinion on your question, I do not think it is ok to play maximal allowed games by yourself, and do sitting for the whole clan during weekends. If you know you will need sitting for the whole clan during every weekend, then join zero games by yourself, and that will be ok.

I think there lies real problem of player sitting in clan wars, because player who plays maximal allowed games by himself, and in addition to that is sitting for many other players during the war, is totally overused player and therefore his clan gets illegal advantage. I think that is direction where clan world should go in solving sitting problem. First step is to be honest about sitting, what I always do, by posting every sitting in chat, and not everyone do it. After that, next step is being fair player and if you are aware that you did many sitting then do not join maximal allowed own games, be honest and make self evaluation how many games your sitting done is worth. Or, do the described counting actions officially by site feature, like saying one sitting done is 1/5 of the game or something like that, but in that case sitting counter need to be implemented by the site. Just some suggestion how to improve cases of possible overusing players during clan wars.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:04 am

josko.ri wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:Can I take it from the precedent being set here that it's OK for all members of TOFU, myself excluded, to meet every weekend in a remote cabin where there's no internet access. I'll be covering all their turns, from end-of-work Friday until Monday morning. Oh....and this will go on forever.

See my point?


I will give you my opinion from clan viewpoint...

When I informed OSA that Moonchild will be away every weekend then I also said my own maximum number of games played in the challenge wil be 14 of 20 allowed. In other 6 games I included sitting for OzBloke in Hive quads, sitting for Moonchild every weekend, and some single turns sat by other players during their absence. I always try to make honest self evaluating of how much all my turns sat would be traslated in my real games played, in OSA challenge my prediction was all sitting together are not more than 6 games total so 14 games played plus all sittings done is not more than 20 games total. In AoC challenge, I evaluated that like 11 games played plus some turns sitting will not go over more than 13 games (33% of 41) which I am allowed to play by myself. This is approximate self evaluation, and I try to be always maximal fair when doing that self-sitting-turn-evaluation. This self evaluation I have always done since my the first clan war on CC. Whoever count my games played in any war, he can see that it has never reached maximal number of allowed games. I am the most often online of all KORT players so because of that reason (not because of reason of "better skill") they the most often rely on me to be sitter of someone.

On the contrary, Chariot of Fire in Clan League 4 Phase 2 played 28 of 28 maximal allowed games by himself, and in addition sat many turns for many players, intentionally hidding it, as proved in this thread viewtopic.php?f=239&t=174462. He has also played 21 of 20 allowed games in KORT TOFU war from October 2010. Ok, lets say that he played 20 of 20 games, because one more was honest mistake. But at the same time he was sitting for 12 players during that war, varying from one turn sit to many turns sit per player.

So to give my opinion on your question, I do not think it is ok to play maximal allowed games by yourself, and do sitting for the whole clan during weekends. If you know you will need sitting for the whole clan during every weekend, then join zero games by yourself, and that will be ok.

I think there lies real problem of player sitting in clan wars, because player who plays maximal allowed games by himself, and in addition to that is sitting for many other players during the war, is totally overused player and therefore his clan gets illegal advantage. I think that is direction where clan world should go in solving sitting problem. First step is to be honest about sitting, what I always do, by posting every sitting in chat, and not everyone do it. After that, next step is being fair player and if you are aware that you did many sitting then do not join maximal allowed own games, be honest and make self evaluation how many games your sitting done is worth. Or, do the described counting actions officially by site feature, like saying one sitting done is 1/5 of the game or something like that, but in that case sitting counter need to be implemented by the site. Just some suggestion how to improve cases of possible overusing players during clan wars.


Josko, this is total bs. So you're justifying your sitting on the basis you are only entering 14 of 20 games allowed, yet nevertheless doing the sitting in all your own games (thus an unlimited quads game is Players A, B, C & D vs Josko).

I do like what you wrote here though:

If you know you will need sitting for the whole clan during every weekend, then join zero games by yourself


I couldn't agree more. Why then is Moonchild still being entered in games when he requires sitting every weekend?

He has also played 21 of 20 allowed games in KORT TOFU war from October 2010. Ok, lets say that he played 20 of 20 games, because one more was honest mistake. But at the same time he was sitting for 12 players during that war, varying from one turn sit to many turns sit per player


Oh yeah. Is that the challenge where KORT imposed a 21 game forfeit for 1 mistaken game so they could win the match? Funny, when I look at the chat logs I see a lot more "Josko for......" than anybody else who played in that tourney.

Maybe try keeping it on topic and not trying to deflect on matters past that have already been dealt with.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby deathcomesrippin on Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:09 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:
Maybe try keeping it on topic and not trying to deflect on matters past that have already been dealt with.


I agree. Please, no need to bring anything else into this. CoF is not the point of this case.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby josko.ri on Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:13 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:
josko.ri wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:Can I take it from the precedent being set here that it's OK for all members of TOFU, myself excluded, to meet every weekend in a remote cabin where there's no internet access. I'll be covering all their turns, from end-of-work Friday until Monday morning. Oh....and this will go on forever.

See my point?


I will give you my opinion from clan viewpoint...

When I informed OSA that Moonchild will be away every weekend then I also said my own maximum number of games played in the challenge wil be 14 of 20 allowed. In other 6 games I included sitting for OzBloke in Hive quads, sitting for Moonchild every weekend, and some single turns sat by other players during their absence. I always try to make honest self evaluating of how much all my turns sat would be traslated in my real games played, in OSA challenge my prediction was all sitting together are not more than 6 games total so 14 games played plus all sittings done is not more than 20 games total. In AoC challenge, I evaluated that like 11 games played plus some turns sitting will not go over more than 13 games (33% of 41) which I am allowed to play by myself. This is approximate self evaluation, and I try to be always maximal fair when doing that self-sitting-turn-evaluation. This self evaluation I have always done since my the first clan war on CC. Whoever count my games played in any war, he can see that it has never reached maximal number of allowed games. I am the most often online of all KORT players so because of that reason (not because of reason of "better skill") they the most often rely on me to be sitter of someone.

On the contrary, Chariot of Fire in Clan League 4 Phase 2 played 28 of 28 maximal allowed games by himself, and in addition sat many turns for many players, intentionally hidding it, as proved in this thread viewtopic.php?f=239&t=174462. He has also played 21 of 20 allowed games in KORT TOFU war from October 2010. Ok, lets say that he played 20 of 20 games, because one more was honest mistake. But at the same time he was sitting for 12 players during that war, varying from one turn sit to many turns sit per player.

So to give my opinion on your question, I do not think it is ok to play maximal allowed games by yourself, and do sitting for the whole clan during weekends. If you know you will need sitting for the whole clan during every weekend, then join zero games by yourself, and that will be ok.

I think there lies real problem of player sitting in clan wars, because player who plays maximal allowed games by himself, and in addition to that is sitting for many other players during the war, is totally overused player and therefore his clan gets illegal advantage. I think that is direction where clan world should go in solving sitting problem. First step is to be honest about sitting, what I always do, by posting every sitting in chat, and not everyone do it. After that, next step is being fair player and if you are aware that you did many sitting then do not join maximal allowed own games, be honest and make self evaluation how many games your sitting done is worth. Or, do the described counting actions officially by site feature, like saying one sitting done is 1/5 of the game or something like that, but in that case sitting counter need to be implemented by the site. Just some suggestion how to improve cases of possible overusing players during clan wars.


Josko, this is total bs. So you're justifying your sitting on the basis you are only entering 14 of 20 games allowed, yet nevertheless doing the sitting in all your own games (thus an unlimited quads game is Players A, B, C & D vs Josko).
This statement is lie. it Was zero games that I sit for all players a single turn, not sure for doubles though because there only one sitting make you sit for all players. And I do not think I have ever sit in any game (triples or quads) for all players during a game. As the contrary, in Game 11176769 you sat for all 3 players even when not being a player by yourself in the game. so you can call it 3 players vs CoF A,B,C if you wish

I do like what you wrote here though:

If you know you will need sitting for the whole clan during every weekend, then join zero games by yourself


I couldn't agree more. Why then is Moonchild still being entered in games when he requires sitting every weekend?
Because moonchild is one player. My statement said if you know that the whole clan will be absent during all weekends (not only one player) then join zero games by yourself.

He has also played 21 of 20 allowed games in KORT TOFU war from October 2010. Ok, lets say that he played 20 of 20 games, because one more was honest mistake. But at the same time he was sitting for 12 players during that war, varying from one turn sit to many turns sit per player


Oh yeah. Is that the challenge where KORT imposed a 21 game forfeit for 1 mistaken game so they could win the match? Funny, when I look at the chat logs I see a lot more "Josko for......" than anybody else who played in that tourney.

Like in every war, in that war also I made self sitting evaluation, and therefore played 3 less games than allowed by myself, 17/20, so with those sitting I tried to not be total over 20 games. We do not have rule how much of a game is 1 sitting so that is nothing official, just fair play. But playing maximal allowed games and play much more games by sitting is not fair play.

Maybe try keeping it on topic and not trying to deflect on matters past that have already been dealt with.


I give example to show my point, and my point is if it is ok to play maximal allowed number of games, and make many sitting. I think it is not ok from clan viewpoint, not against rules, but against fair play, but I would like to hear official opinion about that.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:23 am

Whether you play one game or 25 games in a clan challenge is totally irrelevant. The rules governing challenges have nothing to do with the rules of the site and therefore have no place in this debate.

Entering players in games when they are unable to take ther own turns is intrinsically wrong. Even you know that.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby josko.ri on Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:32 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:Whether you play one game or 25 games in a clan challenge is totally irrelevant. The rules governing challenges have nothing to do with the rules of the site and therefore have no place in this debate.

Entering players in games when they are unable to take ther own turns is intrinsically wrong. Even you know that.

It is very relevant, playing maximal own games plus make at least 1 sitting during a clan war makes the player become overused, plain logic says that. It is not officially stated, but I hope this will become officially stated.

You are wrong about entering players in games when they are unable to do all their own turns, if you did not get yet, please read the official explanation again:

deathcomesrippin wrote:If Moonchild was really unable to take his turns, and he was never online on the weekends mentioned, then this is all above board and from the point of view of a punishable offense, completely okay.


Maybe wrong thing would be press "join" button by sitter when every weekend absence is known, but Moonchild has always pressed "join" button by himself.
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