Manual troops not on maps with starting positions

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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby Timminz on Wed May 26, 2010 3:15 pm

I would say that manual deployments can make a difference on Feudal 1v1. It isn't much, and anyone with half-decent strategy would never do it, but it is slightly different. New World, on the other hand, makes a HUGE difference. Manual deployments, and first turn in a 1v1 sequential game is all but a guaranteed win on that map. I would suggest only blocking the ones where you have only one available option, such a Feudal standard/terminator/assassin games with 4, or more players. For 1v1, unless each player only starts with one territory, and/or each territory only starts with a single army, I think it should be left as is, because there is a difference, however slight.

edit- fastposted by MrBenn.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby Lindax on Wed May 26, 2010 4:12 pm

I basically agree with Koganosi and Timminz.

No maps should be blocked from manual in opinion. It can make a difference, especially in team games.

Lx
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby danryan on Wed May 26, 2010 4:49 pm

The only maps that should be blocked are ones with no deployment. For quads feudal epic it makes a fair bit of difference to start with all deploying on one castle, while on New World it makes a massive difference. Pelo War as pointed out it makes a significant difference as well. Jamaica it has no effect, City Mogul the same, I believe AOR 1,2,3 also. That would be all I suggest.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby The Fuzzy Pengui on Wed May 26, 2010 5:50 pm

MrBenn wrote:if the game-type does not allow you to drop any armies during the deployment phase, or you only have a choice of 1 terr to drop on, then manual deployment makes no sense.
I think MrBenn hit it right on the head. It's exactly what I was going to say before I read his comment. Note that 1 territory to drop on would then eliminate all team games from being in this list, because you always have a minimum of 2 territories to start the game between your team. This means it would be unique for each map, and probably a bit more annoying to code then just removing maps from the selection list, but it would make it more fair in the long run and seems to make a lot more sense IMO.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby Gilligan on Wed May 26, 2010 7:29 pm

lackattack wrote:Merged duplicate topics.

Okay I agree this should be done.

So far we have:
Feudal War
New World
City Mogul
Peloponesian War

Should we list the maps where Manual Troops doesn't make sense or just block it on all maps that make use of starting positions?


There's also Age of Realms, Monsters, WWII Poland, Feudal Epic and Jamaica. If you block it, you would also have to block it on certain numbers of players. For instance...If I were to play a 2 player game on Monsters, I start with 4 territories where Manual still has a legitimate reason for being there.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby Timminz on Wed May 26, 2010 8:24 pm

After a bit more thought, I think it would be better to just get rid of the medal for manual deployment. Wouldn't that remove the issue?
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby Dako on Thu May 27, 2010 1:48 am

Nooo, don't block monsters. manual is awesome there :-).
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby Koganosi on Thu May 27, 2010 6:01 am

Lindax wrote:I basically agree with Koganosi and Timminz.

No maps should be blocked from manual in opinion. It can make a difference, especially in team games.

Lx


I meant like to say. Manual does come in handy in the most team games. In multiplayer games (wich concer more then 4) It isnt handy at all because you have only 1 starting position. I dont know if its hard to script that out. But for mogul manual has never an effect.

Urs

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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby lackattack on Sun May 30, 2010 10:21 am

Stickied this topic because we need feedback.

MrBenn wrote:In effect, if the game-type does not allow you to drop any armies during the deployment phase, or you only have a choice of 1 terr to drop on, then manual deployment makes no sense. Anything that gives you a choice involves some degree (even if minimal) of strategic thought.


Well put! Unless anyone objects, let's use this as the criteria. It shouldn't be controversial :-)

The question then is, how will this be implemented and how will cartographers maintain it...

First of all - can we allow all team games or will some maps not allow you to drop any armies even in team games?

Can we add a Manual troops Yes/No field in the maps database? Or a numeric field that has a min or max number of players? Or a select list with values like [Yes, Only Team Games, No]?

Perhaps we should now list all conditions where MrBenn's criteria are not met...
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby Dako on Sun May 30, 2010 10:40 am

List with Yes, No, Team only would be best as I see it now.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby natty dread on Sun May 30, 2010 6:52 pm

lackattack wrote:The question then is, how will this be implemented and how will cartographers maintain it...


I don't think cartographers need to maintain it. It would be lots of extra work.

It can simply be determined based on the XML if a map will allow you to drop on 2 or more territories on certain settings.

First of all - can we allow all team games or will some maps not allow you to drop any armies even in team games?


You can roughly divide all territories of a map in 3 categories:
- normal
- starts neutral
- coded as starting point

Of these, only the normal territories allow troops for manual deployment. When a territory is coded as starting point, it always starts with the troops it is coded with. But if you have 1 normal territory and 1 starting point territory, the 2 troops from the normal territory go to manual deployment, so you get to choose if you put them on the normal territory or the starting point territory. On the other hand if both are starting point territories, then you don't get to choose, because they won't give any troops for manual dep.

So, to allow for manual deployment, for singles games a map must have for each player at least 2 territories that do not start neutral, of which at least 1 territory must not be coded as a starting position.

In the case of team games, the 2 territories minimum doesn't apply, but each player must still start with at least 1 territory that is not coded as starting position.

Even in team games, if each player only has 1 territory that is coded as a starting position, then manual doesn't work (because there are no troops to distribute).

I think a code that checks the XML for these definitions shouldn't be too hard to code.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby lackattack on Mon May 31, 2010 8:42 am

natty_dread wrote:So, to allow for manual deployment, for singles games a map must have for each player at least 2 territories that do not start neutral, of which at least 1 territory must not be coded as a starting position.

In the case of team games, the 2 territories minimum doesn't apply, but each player must still start with at least 1 territory that is not coded as starting position.


Very nice analysis, natty =D>

I will go with this logic unless anyone can find a flaw in it.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby Timminz on Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:44 am

lackattack wrote:
natty_dread wrote:So, to allow for manual deployment, for singles games a map must have for each player at least 2 territories that do not start neutral, of which at least 1 territory must not be coded as a starting position.

In the case of team games, the 2 territories minimum doesn't apply, but each player must still start with at least 1 territory that is not coded as starting position.


Very nice analysis, natty =D>

I will go with this logic unless anyone can find a flaw in it.


Would Feudal 1v1 (for example) count all the starting territories as "coded as starting position"? Or would the fact that you get 2, randomly chosen from the 6 available, negate this?
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby AAFitz on Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:29 am

It doesnt seem worth it to me, to change the game and essentially take away acutal options for playing a map, which can indeed be relevant, just to protect the manual medal process.

I think no team games whatsoever should be affected, because manual with teams is very much different than 1v1, and necessarily even in just doubles, there are choices to be made.

The only games that should have manual removed are when a player can only make once choice, and that is to deploy on the one spot they have, which cant affect the game in any way, except to delay it.

But ruining the other games just to eliminate this, cant possibly be worth it...no doubt its a cure worse than the disease.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby Timminz on Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:40 am

I agree with Fitz.

If the issue is medals, the solution should be in the medals (either add a sequential medal, or remove the manual medal), not in gameplay option removal.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby fumandomuerte on Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:14 pm

Timminz wrote:I agree with Fitz.

If the issue is medals, the solution should be in the medals (either add a sequential medal, or remove the manual medal), not in gameplay option removal.

I agree. The Manual Medal should be removed imo.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby natty dread on Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:43 pm

Even in team games, you don't get to choose where to deploy if all territories are either neutral or starting positions. There needs to be at least 1 territory that is a normal start, otherwise no troops are allocated for manual deployment.

If I remember correctly, the "starting positions" in feudal aren't actually coded as starting positions, they're just normal territories while all other territories are neutral. So you could still play manual team games on feudal.

However if Feudal (or any other similar map) would have the territories coded as starting positions, then it wouldn't make sense to allow manual team games on it, because you wouldn't get to deploy any troops manually.

Thus, my suggestion is still valid.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby MrBenn on Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:35 pm

lackattack wrote:Stickied this topic because we need feedback.

MrBenn wrote:In effect, if the game-type does not allow you to drop any armies during the deployment phase, or you only have a choice of 1 terr to drop on, then manual deployment makes no sense. Anything that gives you a choice involves some degree (even if minimal) of strategic thought.


Well put! Unless anyone objects, let's use this as the criteria. It shouldn't be controversial :-)

The question then is, how will this be implemented and how will cartographers maintain it...

First of all - can we allow all team games or will some maps not allow you to drop any armies even in team games?

Can we add a Manual troops Yes/No field in the maps database? Or a numeric field that has a min or max number of players? Or a select list with values like [Yes, Only Team Games, No]?

Perhaps we should now list all conditions where MrBenn's criteria are not met...

If we're going to go down the route of allowing/disallowing certain options for certain maps, then perhaps it may be worth adding a degree of auto-filtering options to the game-selection screens (ie selecting 4p games would block triples/quads gametypes)??

Also, it might pave the way for people to create gametype-specific maps - although this is a can of worms which people have previously tried to keep the lid firmly ON :P

As stated previously, the only option for blocking manual that makes sense is where the deployment phase gives you no choice in relation to deployment ie 0 terrs (City Mogul) or 1 terr (dependent on map and other settings, the logic for setting I am too tired to comprehend right now :P ).
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby lackattack on Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:28 pm

AAFitz wrote:It doesnt seem worth it to me, to change the game and essentially take away acutal options for playing a map, which can indeed be relevant, just to protect the manual medal process.

I think no team games whatsoever should be affected, because manual with teams is very much different than 1v1, and necessarily even in just doubles, there are choices to be made.

The only games that should have manual removed are when a player can only make once choice, and that is to deploy on the one spot they have, which cant affect the game in any way, except to delay it.

But ruining the other games just to eliminate this, cant possibly be worth it...no doubt its a cure worse than the disease.


The bold part matches natty's criteria, I think, so Fitz and those who agree with him also agree with natty.

Seems like we have consensus.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby army of nobunaga on Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:30 pm

lackattack wrote:Okay - so then we can't automatically block all maps with starting positions...

Regarding teams - if we agree that Feudal 1v1 is a problem, then 2v2 is no better - you are faced with the same choice to stack or spread evenly.

We need a list with Maps and # players to block.

SirSebstar wrote:what happens when peeps who have earned their medal before the change, do they keep em?


I think they should be stripped :twisted:



I play a lot of feudal... with the 10 neutral, loading up one person doesn't mean a lot. maaayyybe in triples, but even then, I would cut it out completely. You ask the best feudal teams/people in CC and we will all tell you loading up one person in teams doesnt really mean a lot.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby army of nobunaga on Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:32 pm

I should have expounded... It doesnt mean a lot because if two ppl load up their 3rd teammate in the beginning they other two teammates will have a hellova time getting a card (with spoils) or extra territory for a bigger territory bonus (for no spoils) ... Really on every setting in Feudal(s) and Jam. and newworld, its rather pointless.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby Dako on Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:20 am

By the way, I'd prefer manual (even for teams) as an option to distribute only your own armies. Yes, that means no teammate load. Means you need to use every player. You can fort the stack on 1st turn - that is ok, but you need to own them at the start.

Yeah, I think most people will disagree with me, but I think that should be the concept of manual games.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby qwertylpc on Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:19 pm

theres a select few mmaps and circumstances where manual doesn't work

in my opinion if people are going to do 1v1 manual feudal to get a medal then its there loss. These are the people who used double turns to get advantages (King Herpes) and they will keep doing this. Since this is an online site made for fun, if this is really a major issue then the easiest solution is to remove the medals, but then they will find another loophole
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby qwertylpc on Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:45 pm

also i am going for my crossmap so i play alot of manual freestyle rt games, it allows me to deploy quickly so i can go first and also i have a chance after deployment to study the map before i play if manual was eliminated i woulndt have the extra turn to ensure that i go first but still give me a chance to understand a map that is new to me
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby lackattack on Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:40 pm

natty_dread wrote:So, to allow for manual deployment, for singles games a map must have for each player at least 2 territories that do not start neutral, of which at least 1 territory must not be coded as a starting position.

In the case of team games, the 2 territories minimum doesn't apply, but each player must still start with at least 1 territory that is not coded as starting position.


This is getting tricky to implement - not all starting positions on a map are symmetrical, some starting countries could be set as neutral and other not neutral. It might be impossible to tell what would happen until the game is initialized and starting positions allocated... :-k
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