Manual troops not on maps with starting positions

[fumandomuerte]

I agree with Fitz.

If the issue is medals, the solution should be in the medals (either add a sequential medal, or remove the manual medal), not in gameplay option removal.

I agree. The Manual Medal should be removed imo.

[natty dread]

Even in team games, you don't get to choose where to deploy if all territories are either neutral or starting positions. There needs to be at least 1 territory that is a normal start, otherwise no troops are allocated for manual deployment.

If I remember correctly, the "starting positions" in feudal aren't actually coded as starting positions, they're just normal territories while all other territories are neutral. So you could still play manual team games on feudal.

However if Feudal (or any other similar map) would have the territories coded as starting positions, then it wouldn't make sense to allow manual team games on it, because you wouldn't get to deploy any troops manually.

Thus, my suggestion is still valid.

[MrBenn]

Stickied this topic because we need feedback.

In effect, if the game-type does not allow you to drop any armies during the deployment phase, or you only have a choice of 1 terr to drop on, then manual deployment makes no sense. Anything that gives you a choice involves some degree (even if minimal) of strategic thought.

Well put! Unless anyone objects, let's use this as the criteria. It shouldn't be controversial

The question then is, how will this be implemented and how will cartographers maintain it...

First of all - can we allow all team games or will some maps not allow you to drop any armies even in team games?

Can we add a Manual troops Yes/No field in the maps database? Or a numeric field that has a min or max number of players? Or a select list with values like [Yes, Only Team Games, No]?

Perhaps we should now list all conditions where MrBenn's criteria are not met...

If we're going to go down the route of allowing/disallowing certain options for certain maps, then perhaps it may be worth adding a degree of auto-filtering options to the game-selection screens (ie selecting 4p games would block triples/quads gametypes)??

Also, it might pave the way for people to create gametype-specific maps - although this is a can of worms which people have previously tried to keep the lid firmly ON

As stated previously, the only option for blocking manual that makes sense is where the deployment phase gives you no choice in relation to deployment ie 0 terrs (City Mogul) or 1 terr (dependent on map and other settings, the logic for setting I am too tired to comprehend right now ).

[lackattack]

It doesnt seem worth it to me, to change the game and essentially take away acutal options for playing a map, which can indeed be relevant, just to protect the manual medal process.

I think no team games whatsoever should be affected, because manual with teams is very much different than 1v1, and necessarily even in just doubles, there are choices to be made.

The only games that should have manual removed are when a player can only make once choice, and that is to deploy on the one spot they have, which cant affect the game in any way, except to delay it.

But ruining the other games just to eliminate this, cant possibly be worth it...no doubt its a cure worse than the disease.

The bold part matches natty's criteria, I think, so Fitz and those who agree with him also agree with natty.

Seems like we have consensus.

[army of nobunaga]

Okay - so then we can't automatically block all maps with starting positions...

Regarding teams - if we agree that Feudal 1v1 is a problem, then 2v2 is no better - you are faced with the same choice to stack or spread evenly.

We need a list with Maps and # players to block.

what happens when peeps who have earned their medal before the change, do they keep em?

I think they should be stripped

I play a lot of feudal... with the 10 neutral, loading up one person doesn't mean a lot. maaayyybe in triples, but even then, I would cut it out completely. You ask the best feudal teams/people in CC and we will all tell you loading up one person in teams doesnt really mean a lot.

[army of nobunaga]

I should have expounded... It doesnt mean a lot because if two ppl load up their 3rd teammate in the beginning they other two teammates will have a hellova time getting a card (with spoils) or extra territory for a bigger territory bonus (for no spoils) ... Really on every setting in Feudal(s) and Jam. and newworld, its rather pointless.

[Dako]

By the way, I'd prefer manual (even for teams) as an option to distribute only your own armies. Yes, that means no teammate load. Means you need to use every player. You can fort the stack on 1st turn - that is ok, but you need to own them at the start.

Yeah, I think most people will disagree with me, but I think that should be the concept of manual games.

[qwertylpc]

theres a select few mmaps and circumstances where manual doesn't work

in my opinion if people are going to do 1v1 manual feudal to get a medal then its there loss. These are the people who used double turns to get advantages (King Herpes) and they will keep doing this. Since this is an online site made for fun, if this is really a major issue then the easiest solution is to remove the medals, but then they will find another loophole

[qwertylpc]

also i am going for my crossmap so i play alot of manual freestyle rt games, it allows me to deploy quickly so i can go first and also i have a chance after deployment to study the map before i play if manual was eliminated i woulndt have the extra turn to ensure that i go first but still give me a chance to understand a map that is new to me

[lackattack]

So, to allow for manual deployment, for singles games a map must have for each player at least 2 territories that do not start neutral, of which at least 1 territory must not be coded as a starting position.

In the case of team games, the 2 territories minimum doesn't apply, but each player must still start with at least 1 territory that is not coded as starting position.

This is getting tricky to implement - not all starting positions on a map are symmetrical, some starting countries could be set as neutral and other not neutral. It might be impossible to tell what would happen until the game is initialized and starting positions allocated...

[SirSebstar]

lol, solution, keep my medal...

[AAFitz]

It doesnt seem worth it to me, to change the game and essentially take away acutal options for playing a map, which can indeed be relevant, just to protect the manual medal process.

I think no team games whatsoever should be affected, because manual with teams is very much different than 1v1, and necessarily even in just doubles, there are choices to be made.

The only games that should have manual removed are when a player can only make once choice, and that is to deploy on the one spot they have, which cant affect the game in any way, except to delay it.

But ruining the other games just to eliminate this, cant possibly be worth it...no doubt its a cure worse than the disease.

The bold part matches natty's criteria, I think, so Fitz and those who agree with him also agree with natty.

Seems like we have consensus.

Well, perhaps Fitz didnt understand each and every map. If there is no choice, than it is indeed irrelevant so the medal shouldnt count, and the option can be eliminated. If however, there is a choice, even a subtle one, such as dropping on one teammate or all...removing the option would indeed well...remove a viable option.

If the suggestion is to remove the option, only when there is no option, than there is no objection...let alone any real point to it, besides medal manipulation avoidance.

So, well, now good luck getting it done.

[thenobodies80]

So, to allow for manual deployment, for singles games a map must have for each player at least 2 territories that do not start neutral, of which at least 1 territory must not be coded as a starting position.

In the case of team games, the 2 territories minimum doesn't apply, but each player must still start with at least 1 territory that is not coded as starting position.

This is getting tricky to implement - not all starting positions on a map are symmetrical, some starting countries could be set as neutral and other not neutral. It might be impossible to tell what would happen until the game is initialized and starting positions allocated...

Aren't those regions excluded in any case?
If assigned they are starting positions; if not assigned, those regions will be always neutral so in both cases they don't match this: at least 2 territories that do not start neutral, of which at least 1 territory must not be coded as a starting position.

[danfrank]

lol,
its how i plan on getting the medal, using poland right now. but yea, all maps with starting positions would be a good way to block cheap medals. just a wonder, what happens when peeps who have earned their medal before the change, do they keep em?

Of course they do. The perfect examplae would be .. Your tax rate now is 10 percent and we will raise it to 20 .. Should you be allowed to keep the other ten percent you already got

[natty dread]

I say take away the medals. Why should they get to keep the medals they earned by shady tactics in the first place? If people will have to earn their manual medals fairly in the future, why should those who used questionable means to get theirs get to keep them?