Manual troops not on maps with starting positions

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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby natty dread on Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:30 am

Again, if my suggestion is followed, then the only settings/maps blocked will be those where you will have no chance to deploy manually or you can only choose 1 territory to deploy on. This won't affect your favorite maps so stop complaining ;)
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby alstergren on Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:46 pm

natty_dread wrote:Again, if my suggestion is followed, then the only settings/maps blocked will be those where you will have no chance to deploy manually or you can only choose 1 territory to deploy on. This won't affect your favorite maps so stop complaining


Agree - manual deployment has a strategic element on maps like New World and WWII Poland (which has been discussed) but not Citi Mogul where you don't deploy troops.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby SirSebstar on Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:43 am

i do not want my medals revoked
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby Arama86n on Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:51 am

Don't like mogul, but have gotten an invite or two, and accepted. first thing that came up in game chat was somone ridiculing game-creater for making it manual to get medal, so obviously it happens.

Is this a big deal? I suppose not, but I don't see the big deal in closing the loop-hole that makes makes the medal worthless. They shut down termiantor 1v1 abuse and revoked (a fair call imo) I don't see why not here.

If somone argues they want to play Pelo manual, then perhaps it can be coded so you can play manual on Pelo, Mogul etc -but it jsut doesn't count towards medal.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby wisemanpsemc on Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:08 pm

onbekende wrote:Age of Realms (1, 2, 3)
City Mogul
New World
Feudal Epic
Feudal War
St Patricksday - not playable
(Das Schloss)
(Peloponnesian War)

that should be an accurate list of maps that are clearly not maps for the manual troop placement medal. (if I missed one, it means I didn't pkay that one yet, which is not many maps), 2 last maps are in Beta.

there are also some that are borderline cause of either the objectives (aka if you don't read carefully, you corner yourself with a manual deploy)or cause of amount of territories (who would even start a manual drop on those?)


AOR 1,2,3 - for 3 players or less and teams gives you 2 starting positions. Getting rid of manual would change the game play. 4 or more players manual is useless.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby rdsrds2120 on Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:55 am

Yeah, I do a lot of 1v1 AoR2 manual, and it's nice to put them on one spot to start. Let's the game progress quicker I think. Otherwise, I'm in complete support for this.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby eddie2 on Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:24 pm

Master Fenrir wrote:City Mogul is a definite yes, the others I can see, too. Also, I believe that Jamaica is the same as City Mogul, where you have no troops to deploy. I haven't played Jamaica with manual, but one of my friends said this is the case.

One thing I would like to say, though, is that WWII Poland, although a conquest map, is greatly affected by the manual/automatic setting because there aren't as many neutrals between the bases as there are in Pelop & Feudals.

Those who know this map well will tell you there is a difference in gameplay when playing this map on each setting. I would request that you don't eliminate manual deployment as an option for WWII Poland.


this being said why can't jamaica map be changed to when you manual deploy you can put all on one region it would make it more fun
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby greenoaks on Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:39 pm

natty_dread wrote:Sigh... I guess I have to reiterate this. Whether a map is suitable for manual or not should be game type dependent. For example some maps might not be suitable for 5 player singles manual, but could be suitable for 4 player doubles. The system I proposed would take this in account, and should be simple to code:

to allow for manual deployment, for singles games a map must have for each player at least 2 territories that do not start neutral, of which at least 1 territory must not be coded as a starting position.

In the case of team games, the 2 territories minimum doesn't apply, but each player must still start with at least 1 territory that is not coded as starting position.

i do not understand the bolded bit

would 1v1 on Pelo, the Feudals & AoR2 allow manual under your rules or not ?
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:23 pm

rdsrds2120 wrote:Yeah, I do a lot of 1v1 AoR2 manual, and it's nice to put them on one spot to start. Let's the game progress quicker I think. Otherwise, I'm in complete support for this.

Fuedal 1-3 player have the same issue.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby rdsrds2120 on Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:02 pm

So this question remains:

"For what games do medals get stripped for?"

Also, do we have the ability to just ban certain maps from being manual, or can we do it per settings as well? If so, what are all the combinations of maps and settings that we don't want manual troops to be allocated?

-rd
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby natty dread on Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:24 am

rdsrds2120 wrote:So this question remains:

"For what games do medals get stripped for?"

Also, do we have the ability to just ban certain maps from being manual, or can we do it per settings as well? If so, what are all the combinations of maps and settings that we don't want manual troops to be allocated?

-rd


I'm going to say it again:

  • to allow for manual deployment, for singles games a map must have for each player at least 2 territories that do not start neutral, of which at least 1 territory must not be coded as a starting position.
  • In the case of team games, the 2 territories minimum doesn't apply, but each player must still start with at least 1 territory that is not coded as starting position.

Per map+gametype combination, each player starts with a certain number of droppable (non-neutral) territories. Of those territories, a certain number of territories are coded as "starting positions" in the XML, and those starting point territories will not be available for manual deploy - they will always start with the amount of troops specified in the XML, manual or not. Thus follows the 2 rules I have specified:

In a singles game, you must have at least 2 territories in the start - otherwise you only have a choice of 1 territory to drop, and manual deploy is a moot point. Also at least one of those territories must be a non-starting-position territory, because if they are all coded as starting positions, the troops will not become available for manual deployment. Got it so far? Good.

Now, in a team game, the rules should be a bit different, because you can also opt to drop on your teammates. Thus, the 2 territory minimum doesn't apply, because the team will always have a total number of territories of at least 2. But nonetheless each team member must have at least one non-starting-position territory, just like in singles games.

---

Therefore, each map should be considered separately for singles/team games and taking the number of players in account, because the amount of starting territories also varies according to the number of players.

I think the easiest way would be to write a script that analyzes the XML, gets the starting territory amounts for each gametype/player amount/map combination, and then decides whether the map is viable for manual deployment or not. ChipV, I'm looking at you ;)
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby alex951 on Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:08 pm

This seems like a suggestion with good intentions, but why ban certain maps? why not just avoid specific maps with specific settings?
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby 40kguy on Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:54 pm

i think you should be able to play manual just not have it count towards the medal.


my reasons
1.there is actually different strategy in the manual when there 1v1. for examble, i cant win aor2 when i play manual but when i play automatic i win.
2.on city mougal it gives people 5 minuets/24 hours to make the turn so someone dosent get a cheap shot at you when your not in the game.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby greenoaks on Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:32 am

natty_dread wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:So this question remains:

"For what games do medals get stripped for?"

Also, do we have the ability to just ban certain maps from being manual, or can we do it per settings as well? If so, what are all the combinations of maps and settings that we don't want manual troops to be allocated?

-rd


I'm going to say it again:

  • to allow for manual deployment, for singles games a map must have for each player at least 2 territories that do not start neutral, of which at least 1 territory must not be coded as a starting position.
  • In the case of team games, the 2 territories minimum doesn't apply, but each player must still start with at least 1 territory that is not coded as starting position.

Per map+gametype combination, each player starts with a certain number of droppable (non-neutral) territories. Of those territories, a certain number of territories are coded as "starting positions" in the XML, and those starting point territories will not be available for manual deploy - they will always start with the amount of troops specified in the XML, manual or not. Thus follows the 2 rules I have specified:

In a singles game, you must have at least 2 territories in the start - otherwise you only have a choice of 1 territory to drop, and manual deploy is a moot point. Also at least one of those territories must be a non-starting-position territory, because if they are all coded as starting positions, the troops will not become available for manual deployment. Got it so far? Good.

Now, in a team game, the rules should be a bit different, because you can also opt to drop on your teammates. Thus, the 2 territory minimum doesn't apply, because the team will always have a total number of territories of at least 2. But nonetheless each team member must have at least one non-starting-position territory, just like in singles games.

---

Therefore, each map should be considered separately for singles/team games and taking the number of players in account, because the amount of starting territories also varies according to the number of players.

I think the easiest way would be to write a script that analyzes the XML, gets the starting territory amounts for each gametype/player amount/map combination, and then decides whether the map is viable for manual deployment or not. ChipV, I'm looking at you ;)

we do not know which maps get coded as starting positions so it doesn't matter how many times you say this

if you provide us with a list, we can see if your proposal is reasonable (and in my case understand your proposal better)
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby natty dread on Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:48 pm

greenoaks wrote:we do not know which maps get coded as starting positions so it doesn't matter how many times you say this

if you provide us with a list, we can see if your proposal is reasonable (and in my case understand your proposal better)


The XML:s for all maps are public information. Unfortunately I do not really have the time to parse them into a list for your convenience... if you really can't tell when starting positions are used, here's a few tips:

- when you start a manual game, do you see territories that still drop automatically, ie. not as 1:s, but with a set number, in the same way as in automatic? Those territories are starting positions.
- if a non-neutral territory at the start of the game (manual or auto) has any other amount of troops than 3, it is a starting position.
- umm... that's it actually. ;)
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby greenoaks on Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:38 pm

natty_dread wrote:
greenoaks wrote:we do not know which maps get coded as starting positions so it doesn't matter how many times you say this

if you provide us with a list, we can see if your proposal is reasonable (and in my case understand your proposal better)


The XML:s for all maps are public information. Unfortunately I do not really have the time to parse them into a list for your convenience... if you really can't tell when starting positions are used, here's a few tips:

- when you start a manual game, do you see territories that still drop automatically, ie. not as 1:s, but with a set number, in the same way as in automatic? Those territories are starting positions.
- if a non-neutral territory at the start of the game (manual or auto) has any other amount of troops than 3, it is a starting position.
- umm... that's it actually. ;)

that's a great explanation, thanks

i hope i understand this right

in the Feudal & AoR maps for 1v1 manual games each player has 2 territories but because they have only 1 troop on them that means they are not coded as 'starting positions' in the XML even though we, the public, refer to them as starting positions

therefore, under your proposal manual 1v1 games on these maps would still count
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby natty dread on Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:39 am

in the Feudal & AoR maps for 1v1 manual games each player has 2 territories but because they have only 1 troop on them that means they are not coded as 'starting positions' in the XML even though we, the public, refer to them as starting positions


that's correct

therefore, under your proposal manual 1v1 games on these maps would still count


yep
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby greenoaks on Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:41 pm

then i am all for this
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby Qwert on Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:28 pm

</territory>
- <territory>
<name>Pontus</name>
- <borders>
<border>Chalcedonians</border>
</borders>
- <coordinates>
<smallx>579</smallx>
<smally>75</smally>
<largex>668</largex>
<largey>81</largey>
</coordinates>
<bonus>2</bonus>
----------------------------------------
well these is part of territory who start playabile on pelo map- all starting territory are normal teritories-and when you deploy troops they have 1 army.
also i must agree that maps who have only 1 territory in begining need to be excluded from manual medal. When map have 2 territory for one player,then you have choice to decide where to put deployment,who can be decide for outcome of game.
i only can give you example for pelo war.
In 1vs1- players have 2 territory in start-
3 player game-2 territory also
4 player game 2 territory
5th-1 ter
6th-1ter
7th-1 ter
8th-1ter
----------------------
doubles
2vs2-2ter
2vs2vs2-1 ter(but each member can deploy to hes teammate)
2vs2vs2vs2-1ter(but each member can deploy to hes teammate)
triple
3vs3-1 ter(but each member can deploy to hes teammate)
quad
4vs4-1 ter(but each member can deploy to hes teammate)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
conclusion-only in normal 5-6-7 and 8 player game, you dont have choice where to put your deployment,in all other options you have choice to deploy troops.
i hope that these help.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby Hensow on Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:21 am

first when you say it meaningless do you mean that manual deponents can not be done much different to auto
second would it not be better to change the conditions for the medal and list those not accepted than remove it or have the an option removed from the game even dose not look like it has an effect.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby shocked439 on Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:43 am

Qwert has the best idea in this thread, in all honesty it only matters when there is only one territory you can deploy on. In those games there is no difference from auto to manual. Those are the only ones which should be excluded. Thus no team games, and no standard games with 4 players or less should be impacted because in manual you do have a choice
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby blakebowling on Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:42 pm

I'm going to go ahead and submit the suggestion that maps with designated starting positions have manual troops only.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby natty dread on Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:38 am

shocked439 wrote:Qwert has the best idea in this thread, in all honesty it only matters when there is only one territory you can deploy on. In those games there is no difference from auto to manual. Those are the only ones which should be excluded. Thus no team games, and no standard games with 4 players or less should be impacted because in manual you do have a choice


No. Also maps that only have territories that are coded as "starting positions" are meaningless on manual since the troops on starting positions are not available for manual deployment. It's not just maps with 1 territory.

For example, if you play 1v1 manual Lunar War each gets 4 territories, but the manual deployment is useless since all the starting territories are coded as positions.
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Re: Manual troops not on maps with starting positions

Postby natty dread on Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:47 am

Requirements for all game types.

2 player manual:
- At least 4 non-neutral territories, of which at least 2 are not starting positions
3 player manual:
- At least 6 non-neutral territories, of which at least 3 are not starting positions
4 player manual singles:
- At least 8 non-neutral territories, of which at least 4 are not starting positions
4 player manual team games:
- At least 4 non-neutral territories, of which at least 4 are not starting positions
5 player manual:
- At least 10 non-neutral territories, of which at least 5 are not starting positions
6 player manual singles:
- At least 12 non-neutral territories, of which at least 6 are not starting positions
6 player manual team games:
- At least 6 non-neutral territories, of which at least 6 are not starting positions
7 player manual:
- At least 14 non-neutral territories, of which at least 7 are not starting positions
8 player manual singles:
- At least 16 non-neutral territories, of which at least 8 are not starting positions
8 player manual team games:
- At least 8 non-neutral territories, of which at least 8 are not starting positions

Knowing this, it should be relatively easy to code something that checks the XML for the amounts of starting territories, then decides if manual is available on a given game type.
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Re: Manual troops not on maps with starting positions

Postby greenoaks on Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:17 am

it has been over a year. any word on the progress?
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