[GP/UI] Poker Spoils

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Which should be used?

True Poker cashing
14
28%
Percentage based cashing
36
72%
 
Total votes : 50

Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby Bruceswar on Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:00 am

pmchugh wrote:First off bruce my point was combined, you can't have 8 people cashing in sets of 100+ and attacking defending all at the same time. It is nothing like the original game.

Secondly, have you recieved a heavy blow to the head any time in the last few days? Cause you're points just do not make any sense. This change keeps "the same simple concept" you're eager to protect where as the likes of city mogul, freestyle, fog and many other game variations on this site change it to the point where it's no longer recognisable. The site adapts and changes, deal with it.



If you will read my post on city mogul I have motioned that map to be removed over and over again. And even with freestyle you have the same simple rules.

1: Takes 3 Cards to make a set
2: Bonus cards still work the same way as seq.
3: You still roll the dice.
4: The only thing changed is the play order. And for an online game it works great since many people prefer the speed of freestyle rather than seq. With freestyle you are sure to have a turn every 24 hours. With seq it could take 6 or 7 days before you get another turn. It is not like you are all sitting around a table taking turns one after another. People have 24 hours to make a move(and rightly so) so with that said Freestyle offers a bit more real time feel that seq most times.
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby Laughing.Boy on Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:42 am

Bruceswar wrote:If you will read my post on city mogul I have motioned that map to be removed over and over again. And even with freestyle you have the same simple rules.

1: Takes 3 Cards to make a set
2: Bonus cards still work the same way as seq.
3: You still roll the dice.
4: The only thing changed is the play order. And for an online game it works great since many people prefer the speed of freestyle rather than seq. With freestyle you are sure to have a turn every 24 hours. With seq it could take 6 or 7 days before you get another turn. It is not like you are all sitting around a table taking turns one after another. People have 24 hours to make a move(and rightly so) so with that said Freestyle offers a bit more real time feel that seq most times.


From a game design perspective, choosing sequential versus freestyle has no small difference in outcome. It goes well beyond the convenience of timely turns. It affects how you play down to some amazing minutia. Some examples...

In the realm of strategy computer games, you have two distinct categories. RTS vs TBS. RTS, or Real-Time Strategy, is you basic Command & Conquer or Warcraft. As fast as resources allow, you may act. There's no time to plan excessively and carefully once a game has begun, and the difference between winning and losing can come down to a fraction of a second it takes to click the mouse. TBS, or Turn-Based Strategy, is a different beast. Games like Heroes of Might and Magic or the very excellent Civilization series. You can plan with the utmost detail, and the outcome of a game hinges on making the correct decisions.

Real-time versus turn-based is also a large distinction among the RPG category. Compare Fallout 2 to Fallout 3. The mechanisms of playing are totally different. (Even discounting Fallout 3's FPS aspects, which are kind of necessary for the real-time aspect.) Or compare Fallout 2 to Diablo 2. One is a paced game of chess with time for consideration, the other is a click-fest of do-or-die hotkeys, respectively.

No, real-time versus turn-based is no small consideration for a game. It affects everything. If I played Risk in the same manner that I played a freestyle on Conquer Club, the game would resemble less the organized rules of baseball and more the chaos of Calvinball. Realistically, to play freestyle on a board game with the same results as Conquer Club is impossible.

Furthermore, fog of war is a huge change. Knowing exactly where and how strong your enemy stands will affect your style of play. Image playing laser tag, knowing one person guarded the entrance and two were inside. You knew exactly where they stood and where they faced. You'd have a decent shot of storming the place. Now imagine you could see the one guarding the door, but had no idea how many or where, if any, they stood inside. Suddenly any plan goes out the window.
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby Bruceswar on Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:52 am

You do understand that Risk is not any of those games you mentioned. Also you do understand that in real life you play each turn 1 after another. Not up to 24 hour later. Sans a real time game or a speed game then you are not playing close at all. Freestyle speeds up the game. Sure it is a slightly different, especially in speed games, but that is something else.

BTW the strategy changes little from seq to FS. I play both and it is not that different. Sans a block here or taking a shot there, it is all the same.

And as to your fog statement... That is one of the beauties of online games or PC / Console games in general. While it is impossible to do this in real life, you can do this online or on the PC. If you could do it in real life people would do it.

But you know what ... All these games still follow those same simple rules I mentioned.
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby pmchugh on Sun Jun 27, 2010 7:13 pm

Bruceswar wrote:You do understand that Risk is not any of those games you mentioned. Also you do understand that in real life you play each turn 1 after another. Not up to 24 hour later. Sans a real time game or a speed game then you are not playing close at all. Freestyle speeds up the game. Sure it is a slightly different, especially in speed games, but that is something else.

BTW the strategy changes little from seq to FS. I play both and it is not that different. Sans a block here or taking a shot there, it is all the same.

And as to your fog statement... That is one of the beauties of online games or PC / Console games in general. While it is impossible to do this in real life, you can do this online or on the PC. If you could do it in real life people would do it.

But you know what ... All these games still follow those same simple rules I mentioned.


You have picked a few stupid rules to safegaurd, rolling the same number of dice yeah thats a fair point but cashing different numbers of cards is perfectly legit.

Freestyle is entirely different, i could not win a game on fs at first and even now i still suck at it. In fs timing/speed are vital in seq they are non existant factors.

Deciding whether to cash 1-5 cards is barely even different
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby Laughing.Boy on Sun Jun 27, 2010 11:16 pm

Bruceswar wrote:You do understand that Risk is not any of those games you mentioned.


Indeed. Do you understand that Conquer Club isn't Risk?

You ballyhoo the sanctity of three-spoil cashing and for no other reason than "there are some things that are not meant to be changed." I have no misconception on the similarities, but I'm also aware of Conquer Club being what Risk isn't. We're talking about two games set half-a-century apart. Conquer Club is technology-enabled, as you correctly identified in your post.

When Risk was made, why do you think they instituted the cashing system with three cards? Was it because three is the magical number (not being sarcastic here, three really is a revered number ingrained in multiple cultures) or because they play-tested various systems and found the three-cash the best and most fair? Maybe it was neither of those reasons. Maybe it was suggested and just worked, and no other idea was pursued.

In fact, if I had to bet, I'd say that last scenario was the most likely. (In combination with the magical number explanation.) Someone probably made up the cashing system of escalating rewards as a sort of game ending guarantee. The rewards were probably futzed around with, but three cards was likely the first and only solution. Then the rule of a maximum five-card hand was put in place to keep people from holding out indefinitely for the larger numbers.

But that doesn't even matter. Nothing about Risk matters, because we're technically not playing Risk. We're playing a game based upon the basic game mechanisms of Risk, and we're not the first or last to do it. (Online or off) What was done in Risk is only a platform from which to build, not restrict. Refusing to integrate an optional system has the same sense as refusing to build hybrid cars today because the Ford Model T was gas-powered 100 years ago. Gas-powered cars worked and continue to work today and, all things considered, are quite an efficient system. That does not mean it's the best or only system. Furthermore, building hybrid cars certainly doesn't bar anyone from buying a gas-powered car.

It's clinging to the past for the sheer sake of the familiar.
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby Bruceswar on Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:13 am

We keep going back and forth and likely it will all be for nothing. I just do not see this one happening on CC. BTW can we use a desk of cards and not dice? High card wins low card loses? And while we are at it, lets just go ahead and make an idea where cards count as 100 men for each card cashed!
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby JoshyBoy on Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:13 am

Bruceswar wrote:We keep going back and forth and likely it will all be for nothing. I just do not see this one happening on CC. BTW can we use a desk of cards and not dice? High card wins low card loses? And while we are at it, lets just go ahead and make an idea where cards count as 100 men for each card cashed!


That rates about 9.0 on my sarcasm scale. Submitted. There is plenty of support for this idea and we'll leave the final word to lack.

Cheers, JB ;)
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby pmchugh on Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:01 am

Bruceswar wrote:We keep going back and forth and likely it will all be for nothing. I just do not see this one happening on CC. BTW can we use a desk of cards and not dice? High card wins low card loses? And while we are at it, lets just go ahead and make an idea where cards count as 100 men for each card cashed!


Nah i much prefer the idea of getting rid of no cards/esc games, aswell as every map except classic the game has just changed toooo much! :roll:
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby JoshyBoy on Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:10 am

Please do not post in this thread unless you have something relevant to add to the topic.
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby ender516 on Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:35 am

Am I correct in assuming that a player would still be forced to cash something once he had collected five spoils?
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby Woodruff on Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:13 pm

ender516 wrote:Am I correct in assuming that a player would still be forced to cash something once he had collected five spoils?


Good question. I would presume that is correct also, but I don't believe it was addressed. And it could make a significant difference.

(I think this is a tremendous idea, by the way.)
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby NightWolf on Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:38 am

I don't see much reason to dismiss this suggestion. One thing I like about it is that it would, if players chose, add a new meaning to collecting spoils at the end of a turn. Not to mention, it would make for an interesting poker twist to the game if the option was set.
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby pmchugh on Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:37 am

ender516 wrote:Am I correct in assuming that a player would still be forced to cash something once he had collected five spoils?


I would say so yes.
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby Laughing.Boy on Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:22 am

ender516 wrote:Am I correct in assuming that a player would still be forced to cash something once he had collected five spoils?


Yes, that is actually, in my opinion, quite important. If a player could collect any number of spoils it would diminish the rarity and thus the worth of a five-spoil cash.
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby khazalid on Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:51 am

5 is obviously intended to still be the maximum, just refer to the OP.

great idea btw
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby rdsrds2120 on Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:55 am

Haven't seen much on this lately, but I would just like to say to Bruce and anyone else not in support:

If you don't like the option when it's implemented, don't play it.

Lots of people really don't like flat rate (I'm one of them), but you don't see me going around, bantering the Suggestions forum with how the option should be deleted. If an idea has merit to a reasonable amount of CC members, then it should be considered.
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby PsyDev on Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:03 pm

I think this is a really bad idea because it adds too much randomness to the game--you won't know if your opponent will be cashing in a small amount or very large amount of armies. More randomness == less strategy.

I think a much better idea for an alternate spoils is to use the currency method (stars on a card) which is used in modern versions of the Risk board game. It has some of the same advantages of poker method (it lets you cash in with any amount of cards; it also allows for some randomness because you don't know how many stars you will get per card). Its advantages are that it's more simple (no having to know poker hands) and is established as a workable game mechanic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_%28ga ... n-in_rules

You can say "if you don't like it, don't play it" but the reality is that there can only be so many options for games before there are too many. We should go with a method that's been tried and true and not have endless options for spoils.
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby TheForgivenOne on Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:51 pm

PsyDev wrote:I think this is a really bad idea because it adds too much randomness to the game--you won't know if your opponent will be cashing in a small amount or very large amount of armies. More randomness == less strategy.

I think a much better idea for an alternate spoils is to use the currency method (stars on a card) which is used in modern versions of the Risk board game. It has some of the same advantages of poker method (it lets you cash in with any amount of cards; it also allows for some randomness because you don't know how many stars you will get per card). Its advantages are that it's more simple (no having to know poker hands) and is established as a workable game mechanic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_%28ga ... n-in_rules

You can say "if you don't like it, don't play it" but the reality is that there can only be so many options for games before there are too many. We should go with a method that's been tried and true and not have endless options for spoils.


You already posted a new thread, no need to turn this thread into a thread about your spoil type. Please stay on topic.
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby PsyDev on Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:15 pm

TheForgivenOne wrote:
PsyDev wrote:You already posted a new thread, no need to turn this thread into a thread about your spoil type. Please stay on topic.


I just posted that new thread after writing this reply.

This was on topic. I think this is a bad idea because there are only so many options one can have before having "option overload". I think this other system is a superior choice with many of the same qualities (being able to cash in at any time, etc.)
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby Chuuuuck on Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:34 pm

I think this is a bad idea. I have tried to get 2 friends on this site recently and both said there was too much to it and too overwhelming at first. I don't think more options for game types need to be added unless most people think it is just fantastic.

To me this is just another bland option that does not add a whole lot in the way of strategy, it really is a similar method in theory to flat rate cards with just different numbers of armies for different types of cashing. The obvious strategy is to way until 5 cards to try and get the best combination possible.
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby Commander9 on Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:41 pm

Chuuuuck wrote:I think this is a bad idea. I have tried to get 2 friends on this site recently and both said there was too much to it and too overwhelming at first. I don't think more options for game types need to be added unless most people think it is just fantastic.

To me this is just another bland option that does not add a whole lot in the way of strategy, it really is a similar method in theory to flat rate cards with just different numbers of armies for different types of cashing. The obvious strategy is to way until 5 cards to try and get the best combination possible.


This. I also know a few people that came, played a few games and left afterwards, because there was just too much things going on. Obviously, the site must evolve in order not to be left behind, but I don't think doing lost of minor things often are better than waiting until something of true quality comes out.
But... It was so artistically done.
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby TheForgivenOne on Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:24 pm

PsyDev wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:
PsyDev wrote:You already posted a new thread, no need to turn this thread into a thread about your spoil type. Please stay on topic.


I just posted that new thread after writing this reply.

This was on topic. I think this is a bad idea because there are only so many options one can have before having "option overload". I think this other system is a superior choice with many of the same qualities (being able to cash in at any time, etc.)


CC Community Guidelines wrote:If the main point of your post is about something other than what the OP intended, it's not on topic, even if you did post about how you agree/disagree with the OP.
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby IcePack on Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:42 pm

Commander9 wrote:
Chuuuuck wrote:I think this is a bad idea. I have tried to get 2 friends on this site recently and both said there was too much to it and too overwhelming at first. I don't think more options for game types need to be added unless most people think it is just fantastic.

To me this is just another bland option that does not add a whole lot in the way of strategy, it really is a similar method in theory to flat rate cards with just different numbers of armies for different types of cashing. The obvious strategy is to way until 5 cards to try and get the best combination possible.


This. I also know a few people that came, played a few games and left afterwards, because there was just too much things going on. Obviously, the site must evolve in order not to be left behind, but I don't think doing lost of minor things often are better than waiting until something of true quality comes out.


This +2.
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
12:15:00 * IcePack joins Social
12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: Poker Spoils [LAST CALL]

Postby myfriendkyle on Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:00 pm

So don't have it available for new members. Seems like an easy enough answer.
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