[GP/UI] Anti Fog Spoils

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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby AAFitz on Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:01 am

AndyDufresne wrote:Interesting suggestion. Develop it out a little more. Too bad the suggestion about "Ninja Spoils" seems to have died out.


--Andy


NOOOO! That idea is not dead. Its an awesome idea. Its better than this one...lol. Its actually just so good, that it opens it up for a plethora of different ideas and ways to implement it, which mean it will be awesome, just a little messier deciding what would be best. If you like that other idea Andy, what might be helpful is asking lack, what would be possible/easiest for him, so we can perhaps discuss the reasonable ways of doing it, and then narrow down which will affect the actual game play best....

But ill put some more thought into this one. I typed it a second after conception...i mean..conception of the idea.

Hopefully some can help us narrow this one down to something useful, and worth coding. Maybe someone who does the programming can suggest what is possible. Some of the ideas for this seemed unlikely.

Such as, spoils lighting one region of no fog ie... unfogging all ajacent territories of that teritory, so youd essentially have little flowers of no fog on the board by the end.

My guess is though, one territory unfogged, coupled with the flat or escalating, or no bonus spoils would be the easiest variation to code, and the combination of spoil combinations would make it the most simple to use and understand. Instead of getting +2 armies for holding a region spoil, you get to see the spot. If you or your team own it...too bad, just like nuclear. Unlike nuclear though, you still get the bonus armies from the card.

It makes it not as powerful, but the easiest to code, and the simplest to understand and implement, I would think??

Right now most of the additions to this seem to end up in the same area.

the whole lighting up the board for seconds or rounds is interesting, but I dont see how it wouldnt just make the game totally unfog after a while, so I personally, dont see how it would work... Besides, if you cash the spoils, then take a quick screenshot with bob...you get a pic for the duration of the game, so its just too powerful.

I think the only reasonable options would be, unfog one territory, or unfog a group of territories, and one territory is easier, and just makes sense. I suspect it isnt a complete impossibility either. Essentially, he would take the code for nuclear, and change it to unfogging the region, not killing it, and then adjust escalating and flat rate, to not give +2 bonus, but just unfog the areas for that one player.

Players already get unfogged areas for reasons on the map, so without knowing better, it technically should be possible??

and anti fog is a good description, but a stupid name for it. I think someone said Clear fog, which is immediately more descriptive, if not as flashy.

Spoils:

Clear fog
Flat rate Clear fog
Escalating Clear fog

or

Clear fog No bonus
Clear fog Flat rate
Clear fog Escalating

The biggest downside, is its essentially one option, but has three names. There may be an easier way, but the no spoils option, makes it more difficult.

I dont think theres any question it would be a fun little addition to the spoils options. I think the only question may be priority, and feasibility. And, those ninja spoils*cough* conquer spoils are definitely a more unique style of play, and I myself would be more interested to see them.

What would be truly ideal, is if we could combine nuclear with flat rate and escalating
this one with flat rate and escalating(which is absolutely necessary)
and ninja spoils with flat rate and escalating too(if possible)

Because its the combinations of these spoils working together that will make the gameplay novel I think. Alone they make all the games no card games, and it means the power of the spoils is typically so small, that playing escalating, is still more challenging. But, combining them, makes a new frontier of strategy, combined with the many objective boards, and maps, that I can only instinctively imagine will create some strategies, that were never dreamed of before.

Ok....I summarize this in my original post. Unless any complain, Ive convinced myself the one territory is the way to go.
By all means if theres a better idea throw it out there still
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby yeti_c on Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:19 pm

Prefer Qwert's version.

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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby AAFitz on Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:42 pm

yeti_c wrote:Prefer Qwert's version.

C.


qwerts version is the same version I suggested in the first place. I just had other options in there. I agree the name is much better, and that of the choices, its the best option.
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby yeti_c on Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:48 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:Interesting suggestion. Develop it out a little more. Too bad the suggestion about "Ninja Spoils" seems to have died out.


--Andy


You mean it got refined until it no longer needed any posts - and then disappeared from the beginning of this forum due to lack of integration?

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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:26 pm

You should add more smileys to your posts yeti. :)


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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby jaseleo on Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:14 pm

Sounds like a great idea maybe the spoils you get take the fog off the card you have but only for you whilst you hold it, this gives you a planning advantage so that from your first spoil you can plan the next 3 -4 rounds for your kill with good deployments, but also knowing someone else can see territories that they are not boardering with will add that extra safety dimension. I know a lot of 8 player fog games i play i tend to block a player in where i can from round 1 this element will make me aware others could see it.
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby Qwert on Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:19 pm

by jaseleo » Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:14 am

Sounds like a great idea maybe the spoils you get take the fog off the card you have but only for you whilst you hold it, this gives you a planning advantage so that from your first spoil you can plan the next 3 -4 rounds for your kill with good deployments, but also knowing someone else can see territories that they are not boardering with will add that extra safety dimension. I know a lot of 8 player fog games i play i tend to block a player in where i can from round 1 this element will make me aware others could see it.


I dont understand- :?
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby Qwert on Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:25 pm

Great you implement mine sugestion =D>

but i must say that these its bad.
Also, the spoils will be in the log. You will often have to keep away from those spots with stacks, to keep them hidden, so it will most definitely change game play on both sides.

I still think that only you can know what territory its permanent clear of fog,and these will be same for all players.Also all territory who is starting,will be foggy when you lost in game,because they not cleared of fog,and these mean that territory who you hold,become permanent unfogg when you use cards.
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby AAFitz on Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:19 pm

qwert wrote:Great you implement mine sugestion =D>

but i must say that these its bad.
Also, the spoils will be in the log. You will often have to keep away from those spots with stacks, to keep them hidden, so it will most definitely change game play on both sides.

I still think that only you can know what territory its permanent clear of fog,and these will be same for all players.Also all territory who is starting,will be foggy when you lost in game,because they not cleared of fog,and these mean that territory who you hold,become permanent unfogg when you use cards.


I dont want to be pettty here, but all you did was suggest what one of the suggestions were in the first place, unless of course you suggested this at some other time, in another suggested. What you suggested, was the option that was the most likely, but some other options were suggested along with it as well, again, unless there is another thread where you suggested clear fog spoils, in which case, you clearly developed the idea. I, as usual, did no such search before this suggestion. If there is a thread, technically, this should just be linked to it, though this one is getting close to refined....I hope.

your naming of it however, was more..."clear" and that I did use. Anti-fog sounds cooler, but clear fog simply makes so much sense it has to be used.

I dont understand fully what you mean by the last part, but to clarify, if you cash spoils on clear fog option. the log will list what regions you held, as it always does, and that will inform players of what sites you can see, if they want to rifle through the log. If there is a way to hide that info as well, that would be great too.
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby AAFitz on Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:21 pm

jaseleo wrote:Sounds like a great idea maybe the spoils you get take the fog off the card you have but only for you whilst you hold it, this gives you a planning advantage so that from your first spoil you can plan the next 3 -4 rounds for your kill with good deployments, but also knowing someone else can see territories that they are not boardering with will add that extra safety dimension. I know a lot of 8 player fog games i play i tend to block a player in where i can from round 1 this element will make me aware others could see it.


I doubt this would be possible. I think the regions would simply have to become "clear" after you cash the spoils, in exactly the same way the region becomes "nuked" after cashing spoils.
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby Qwert on Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:45 pm

I dont understand fully what you mean by the last part, but to clarify, if you cash spoils on clear fog option. the log will list what regions you held, as it always does, and that will inform players of what sites you can see, if they want to rifle through the log. If there is a way to hide that info as well, that would be great too.

You understand correct- need someon to give answer on that. Hide territory names after use a card,will great addition to these sugestion.
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby AAFitz on Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:01 pm

qwert wrote:
I dont understand fully what you mean by the last part, but to clarify, if you cash spoils on clear fog option. the log will list what regions you held, as it always does, and that will inform players of what sites you can see, if they want to rifle through the log. If there is a way to hide that info as well, that would be great too.

You understand correct- need someon to give answer on that. Hide territory names after use a card,will great addition to these sugestion.



It definitely could be. this one could use some discussion. On the one hand, it makes the spoils more important, but at the other, knowing what areas someone can see, is a positive thing too, because it requires you to avoid those areas, which in a way, can add to the fun...

I could argue it either way. My instinct would be knowing what areas were fogged would be better in the long run. But the idea of having invisible spy's is nice too.
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby yeti_c on Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:37 am

AndyDufresne wrote:You should add more smileys to your posts yeti. :)


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That might imply that I was being sarcastic though?!

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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby Qwert on Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:18 am

It definitely could be. this one could use some discussion. On the one hand, it makes the spoils more important, but at the other, knowing what areas someone can see, is a positive thing too, because it requires you to avoid those areas, which in a way, can add to the fun...

I could argue it either way. My instinct would be knowing what areas were fogged would be better in the long run. But the idea of having invisible spy's is nice too.

Apsolutly-these give two option-visible for all players,and visible only for card user.

im more for second option, its more interesting,and more secret. ;) Like assasin. ;)
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby yeti_c on Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:52 am

Definitely agree with Qwery...

With the cards in the log option - then BOB would be able to read it all up and tell you who can see what...

Not knowing what people can see would be ace.

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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby AAFitz on Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:06 am

yeti_c wrote:Definitely agree with Qwery...

With the cards in the log option - then BOB would be able to read it all up and tell you who can see what...

Not knowing what people can see would be ace.

C.


It certainly has its benefits. its just a little more coding to hide them I would think. and coupled with flat rate, or escalating, not knowing which regions are visible to the enemy, may just give the cards too much power. I agree it would be a more interesting feature, and the option of see it in the log or not, is a nice option, but that adds another option to the option, so that doesnt seem worth it.

I like the idea of secret spys, but being able to see them, even with bob, does not change the fact that people will see where you are, and knowing what they can see really does add more to the game than not. If you dont know what they can see, you have to assume they can see everything, so there is little you can do to counter it. If however you know where the cleared areas are, you can actually use those to your advantage, and avoid them like mine fields and possibly as mines themselves.

On the turn that it turns fog, youll see any stack on it too, and commit it to memory, possibly, but can assume that stack will be elsewhere.

I think the key to making this workable is making it easiest to implement and still retaining the use. It absolutely has to be coupled with flat and escalating, to be worth it, so another option after that would seem impossible, a fog for spoils just doesnt seem like its worth it. Not hiding the spoils is how its already logged, so that wouldnt change anything there... not that I imagine that is difficult to code in.

Keeping them fogged does make it more useful, but maybe too useful...but either way, it will allow for some interesting strategy. But before assuming they have to be fogged, just imagine knowing where the spy satellites are, and how you can adjust your strategy to use them to your advantage. Now imagine playing, and knowing any territory could be seen. It simply doesnt allow for alot of strategy beyond spreading out your forces...if seeing a stack will change things. In a perfect world, both would be an option, but I think we'd be lucky to see this one anyways, so another option for the option, especially since its only fog for spoils option, seems unlikely, but that really is a programmers area of expertise. Im only guessing based on how I see things set up right now.
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby Qwert on Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:17 am

if Assasin option work,so these will also work,right?
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby redpine on Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:54 pm

Excellent idea. Clean it up, modify it, and repost it in a new topic.

Heres my two cents on what to submit:

1. Add Raise Fog, Clear Fog, Toggle Fog, Spy Fog and All Types to the list of spoils types.

2. Make all spoils types compatible with eachother, allowing combinations like escalating clear fog nuclear spoils. (Spy on the country you just nuked? Whatever. Not selecting a spoils type would be the equivalent of ´no spoils.´)

3. Raise fog adds fog to the relevant territories from the perspective of all players. Clear fog removes the fog, from the perspective of all players. Toggle Fog makes fogged territories unfogged and unfogged territories fogged. All Types means blue cards raise fog, green cards clear fog, and red cards spy fog. Spy fog allows you, and only you, to see through the fog of the relevant territories permanently - regardless of whether fog is raised or cleared there later.

4. Finally, to idiot proof things, do not allow players to select more than one of the five fog spoils options, or select clear fog for non fog games. Each individual fog option is still compatible with each valid combination of the existing spoils options (nuclear, escalating, flat rate, no bonus.)
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby Qwert on Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:48 pm

Excellent idea. Clean it up, modify it, and repost it in a new topic.

Heres my two cents on what to submit:

1. Add Raise Fog, Clear Fog, Toggle Fog, Spy Fog and All Types to the list of spoils types.

2. Make all spoils types compatible with eachother, allowing combinations like escalating clear fog nuclear spoils. (Spy on the country you just nuked? Whatever. Not selecting a spoils type would be the equivalent of ´no spoils.´)

3. Raise fog adds fog to the relevant territories from the perspective of all players. Clear fog removes the fog, from the perspective of all players. Toggle Fog makes fogged territories unfogged and unfogged territories fogged. All Types means blue cards raise fog, green cards clear fog, and red cards spy fog. Spy fog allows you, and only you, to see through the fog of the relevant territories permanently - regardless of whether fog is raised or cleared there later.

4. Finally, to idiot proof things, do not allow players to select more than one of the five fog spoils options, or select clear fog for non fog games. Each individual fog option is still compatible with each valid combination of the existing spoils options (nuclear, escalating, flat rate, no bonus.)

:-s
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby AAFitz on Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:15 pm

qwert wrote:if Assasin option work,so these will also work,right?


I honestly dont know. Ive been trying to keep it simple assuming it would be the easiest to implement, while still giving the benefit of the type.

Typically Lack custom fits these type options to what fits the game best. No doubt more options is better, but if its prohibitively time consuming, it may just not be worth the time.

Assassin is an entirely different type of play. clear spoils is a different kind of spoils, and we would want it to be available on assassin games, and not exclusive from them.

What I will do, is add the options suggested to the original suggestion. then the optimum choice can be chosen which fits the server best, if its even chosen to be implemented at all...which is hardly guaranteed, except the idea does have a sort of appeal to it, that I suspect will get it looked at seriously at some point at the very least.
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby stahrgazer on Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:22 pm

You could always have the "nuc spoils + nobonus clearfog" option make a reverse-spy effect :lol:
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby yeti_c on Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:27 am

Sod making things simple - let's make thing much better.

The fog of cards is a good thing too - cos then the code could be reused for a more advanced fogginess that many people have called for in the past.

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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby AAFitz on Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:48 pm

yeti_c wrote:Sod making things simple - let's make thing much better.

The fog of cards is a good thing too - cos then the code could be reused for a more advanced fogginess that many people have called for in the past.

C.


well, its more to keep them simple to get them actually installed. If its possible to add more, than obviously go for it. You know the code more than most, so if you think its doable or worth it, than Ill certainly be happy to see more intricate settings :D

But I also wouldnt have a problem seeing a simple version installed sooner, and a more complex one with options later, as opposed waiting for the super version.
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby Gypsys Kiss on Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:05 am

AAFitz wrote:
yeti_c wrote:Sod making things simple - let's make thing much better.

The fog of cards is a good thing too - cos then the code could be reused for a more advanced fogginess that many people have called for in the past.

C.


well, its more to keep them simple to get them actually installed. If its possible to add more, than obviously go for it. You know the code more than most, so if you think its doable or worth it, than Ill certainly be happy to see more intricate settings :D

But I also wouldnt have a problem seeing a simple version installed sooner, and a more complex one with options later, as opposed waiting for the super version.


Keeping it simple just to have it implemented is not a good way to go. Would you be happy with a half baked version of ths idea implemented or the full blood and guts version?

I like the 'secret spy' version, where only the player using the spoil knows the identity of the territory. I also like the 'double agent' variety, where the spoil gets logged as normal. So, in general, I like the idea. :)
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby ask me2 on Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:18 pm

That does not quit make sense I mean what if it was no fog? Would you not be able to play with these spoils?
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