[Site] Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

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Should we change the rating system, or leave it as it is?

Yes, change it.
78
52%
No, leave it.
71
48%
 
Total votes : 149

Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby temporos on Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:30 pm

Yeah, double-post, I know...

TheForgivenOne wrote:Once you migrate over to -2 - 2, as i said, you're just going to get a lot of people with 1.5-1.9.

False. The majority of players do not leave ratings, so the majority of ratings will be 0 or "average" if these non-ratings are counted. Thus, the average will stabilize around 0, since the only incentive people will have for leaving ratings is if the player was particularly good or particularly bad.

TheForgivenOne wrote:The rating system as we see it now is always going to be skewed.

That's why I proposed this new system, which will naturally correct the current skew.

TheForgivenOne wrote:Doesn't matter if we change it to you're suggestion, keep it, or even 1-10. Some people rate all 1's, and some rate all 5's until they meet someone they really disliked.

The people who consistently leave ratings after a match are in the minority. With the majority of people not leaving ratings, and those non-ratings counted as "average," this will correct the skew of that minority who don't know how to rate others properly.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby TheForgivenOne on Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:48 am

So we are going to punish more people because some people decide not to rate? I don't think that's going to fly. Just because a person DOES NOT rate, does not mean they didn't enjoy the player.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby bluwizard on Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:13 am

TheForgivenOne wrote:Just because having a 4.5-4.9 is the norm now, does not mean it is broken.

Once you play here for a while, you will notice that people tend to be between 4.5-4.9, and anyone below that tends to be a poor player to play with. A lot of people find that, if the person played good enough, they get all 5's...

If 3 of 5 is defined as average but 4.5+ is the norm, how is that not broken?

If "good enough" deserves a set of perfect 5s, then those numbers cease having any value. A lot of people don't leave ratings because they see the entire system as completely defective.

I agree to the extent that its not so much the system, its the mentality of all 5's that for some reason is so prevalent here, but if ratings are truly distorted, there should either be an attempt to correct that, or to just eliminate it all together.

As it stands "ratings" carry virtually no value because they are skewed to the extreme, and if that is not a broken system, I'm not sure what is.

I also find it extremely disconcerting that the suggestion forum moderator, of all people, would be of the opinion that a system that is admittedly skewed and/or flawed, should be treated as a lost cause. As if its a waste of time trying to fix it and that it will always be broken, that it "doesn't matter" basically. That is a dangerous mentality that I pray does not extend beyond this issue.

But, I am sorry, if what is intended to be a five-point system has essentially become binary, it most certainly is broken.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby bluwizard on Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:34 am

TheForgivenOne wrote:So we are going to punish more people because some people decide not to rate? I don't think that's going to fly. Just because a person DOES NOT rate, does not mean they didn't enjoy the player.

This is the mentality that got me berated for giving an average rating. Being called anything but uberspecial is an insult to some. Its like those children's sports leagues where they don't keep score so everyone can be a winner. Simply not getting the gold star is seen as punishment.

I'm sorry, but most people, by definition, should have a score that is close to average. That is, in fact, what average means. But the current system has no middle ground, no gray area. One is either a L337 h4x0r or stupid noob, here. Is that really better than some be relegated to average status?
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby TheForgivenOne on Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:28 am

bluwizard wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:So we are going to punish more people because some people decide not to rate? I don't think that's going to fly. Just because a person DOES NOT rate, does not mean they didn't enjoy the player.

This is the mentality that got me berated for giving an average rating. Being called anything but uberspecial is an insult to some. Its like those children's sports leagues where they don't keep score so everyone can be a winner. Simply not getting the gold star is seen as punishment.

I'm sorry, but most people, by definition, should have a score that is close to average. That is, in fact, what average means. But the current system has no middle ground, no gray area. One is either a L337 h4x0r or stupid noob, here. Is that really better than some be relegated to average status?


The thing is, i don't get why we are Punishing people for NOT rating people. You gave someone a 3 star. What the TS is asking for, is if somebody does NOT rate anyone, their rating goes down. This new system is basically asking you to always rate people, or else it is basically like giving everyone average ratings. Suddenly people will be PMing you asking Why you didn't rate them. This rating system was brought in a long time ago.

And why not just change it so that if someone doesn't rate, they just get the 3 stars? Because you are just moving the numbers from 1-5, to -2 - 2. Which i find really pointless
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby MichelSableheart on Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:43 am

TheForgivenOne wrote:The thing is, i don't get why we are Punishing people for NOT rating people. You gave someone a 3 star. What the TS is asking for, is if somebody does NOT rate anyone, their rating goes down. This new system is basically asking you to always rate people, or else it is basically like giving everyone average ratings. Suddenly people will be PMing you asking Why you didn't rate them. This rating system was brought in a long time ago.
If player A didn't leave player B a rating, either player A doesn't care about the rating system at all (in which case it doesn't matter to him what rating he gives), or player B didn't leave enough of an impression to leave a rating (in which case the average rating describes his play perfectly). In none of these cases are we actually punishing player A.

Nor are we punishing player B. He is still getting rated as average, which is not bad. Most players deserve average ratings. Yes, their rating goes down, but it goes to a point that more accurately reflects what it should be.

TheForgivenOne wrote:And why not just change it so that if someone doesn't rate, they just get the 3 stars? Because you are just moving the numbers from 1-5, to -2 - 2. Which i find really pointless
This, I agree with. There is no significant difference between a 1 to 5 and a -2 to 2 scale.

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You can't suddenly decide to retroactively handle all times someone didn't leave a rating as them handing out a 3. There may be players who didn't leave a rating because they knew not leaving a rating wouldn't influence a players rating. If the system is changed, and suddenly not leaving a rating does influence a players rating, they are unable to change the fact that they didn't leave a rating.

If this is implemented, it should be from a certain point of time forwards. Which means that it will take a while for the effect to take place, and the ratings of older members will be skewed upwards.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby bluwizard on Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:23 am

TheForgivenOne wrote:...What the TS is asking for, is if somebody does NOT rate anyone, their rating goes down. This new system is basically asking you to always rate people, or else it is basically like giving everyone average ratings....

That's just it, average shouldn't be considered a downward movement, it should be the starting point. The way things are now, everyone is five-star until proven otherwise. I believe players should actually earn the rating they have instead of starting with a five and having every rating that isn't perfection essentially being a "punishment", like it is now.

If a player doesn't do something that would compel me to give a higher (or lower) rating, then they receive the default measurement.

I don't think anyone is going to quibble over whether it is -2+2, A-E, or different colours. What we have now is 1-5 in name only, it is really 4.5+, or not, which is what I find really pointless...


I am more than willing to concede that implementation is the messy part, I just think the current system needs messing up.
Last edited by bluwizard on Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby Darwins_Bane on Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:23 am

TFO I disagree on this one. The you're thinking of the rating system in its current iteration, which is where very close to 5 stars is average. If the ratings system was used properly then 3 stars would be the norm for most ppl. basically, this suggestion is coming up with a way to normalize the ratings, not punish anyone. if you get 0's because someone didn't rate you, its because they decided not to rate you, because you were average. I support this suggestion. But it would also become a nightmare to prove ratings abuse.XD
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:27 am

I completely agree with this suggestion. Good call, OP.

TheForgivenOne wrote:The thing is, i don't get why we are Punishing people for NOT rating people. You gave someone a 3 star. What the TS is asking for, is if somebody does NOT rate anyone, their rating goes down. This new system is basically asking you to always rate people, or else it is basically like giving everyone average ratings. Suddenly people will be PMing you asking Why you didn't rate them. This rating system was brought in a long time ago.


I'll agree with Michel. The first problem is an incorrect assumption: that everyone will have a +1.9 rating, and a failure to leave a rating will lower that person's rating. Faulty logic, because that person could have a -1.9 rating and be helped by the lack of a rating. Second, if you fail to rate them, it means that either you are too lazy to respond, or you didn't see anything special about that player. The latter situation truly does mean you feel they are average. The former ought to be corrected, don't you think? On this site we encourage people to rate each other (e.g. the ratings medals). This will give an additional motivation - if no one rates each other, the ratings system will become meaningless. And if that's how it ends up, fine - but as it stands now, the rating system is also currently meaningless, so we didn't lose much.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby jrh_cardinal on Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:51 am

Metsfanmax wrote:The former ought to be corrected, don't you think?

no, casual gaming site, ratings aren't even a part of the game. People are NOT and SHOULD NOT be forced to rate in any way.

For example, I know I almost never rate 2 or 4 stars. I am just playing for fun, rating is not fun. I only rate if I feel very strongly about someone*, either positively or negatively, so they almost always get ones or fives

* I have mass rated 5's once or twice when waiting for a speed game to start, but that's just because I'm bored and medal hunting is the only thing available
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:59 am

jrh_cardinal wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:The former ought to be corrected, don't you think?

no, casual gaming site, ratings aren't even a part of the game. People are NOT and SHOULD NOT be forced to rate in any way.

For example, I know I almost never rate 2 or 4 stars. I am just playing for fun, rating is not fun. I only rate if I feel very strongly about someone*, either positively or negatively, so they almost always get ones or fives

* I have mass rated 5's once or twice when waiting for a speed game to start, but that's just because I'm bored and medal hunting is the only thing available


And if you don't care about ratings, don't leave any. You're effectively giving average ratings, sure, but you're not being forced to do anything actively.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby temporos on Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:58 am

TheForgivenOne wrote:So we are going to punish more people because some people decide not to rate?

Why do you keep bringing up this "punishment" stuff? That's hardly a logical conclusion, since there is no punishment involved for any player, frequent rater or not.

Get rid of your opinion and start presenting counterarguments logically, if you truly think my suggestion would be counter-productive. I have very little tolerance for illogical debate. Here's how to debate using logic:

  • Reference verifiable facts.
  • Do not use opinion-based qualifiers such as "punish."
  • Use negation instead of contradiction.
  • Always support your arguments and counterarguments with clearly-worded reasoning.
  • Reject your own arguments that have been defeated.
  • Keep your emotions out of it. Suggestions are for the good of the community, not your personal comfort.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby temporos on Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:03 pm

TheForgivenOne wrote:What the TS is asking for, is if somebody does NOT rate anyone, their rating goes down.

FALSE. You obviously do not understand the suggestion, either because you do not wish to, or because you did not read it carefully. The rating of the person leaving (or not leaving) the rating for another player would not change based on that rating (or lack of rating).
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby maasman on Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:19 pm

bring back feedback, or make it more prominent again. This will solve most of the laziness, and if you feel strongly you'll actually type a few sentences rather than making a few mouse clicks, which is far easier to do.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby Darwins_Bane on Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:14 pm

dont derail the subject. thats a diff sugg, and has already been and will always be, rejected.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby MeDeFe on Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:55 pm

This is the first time I see a suggestion that would actually work to fix the atrocity that is known as "ratings" while maintaining the basics of it. I fully support the suggestion.

If a player not giving a rating counted as "average" (whether that's 3 stars or 0 points is irrelevant) for the recipient, the ratings that are actively given would finally become meaningful. If a player leaves no lasting impression that would make another person bother to give them a rating, they are best described as "average". It's perfectly fine to automatically assign them an average rating.
That's not "punishing" in the least, TFO, punishing would be to leave them a below average rating.

As it is the ratings system does not work. It not only just doesn't work as advertised, it doesn't do the job at all. It might as well consist of a "I like this player"-button with no way of giving negative feedback. The ratings are currently completely meaningless, it's been mentioned already that if people feel someone is average and give them the appropriate 3 stars they are whined at, they're also quite possibly reported in C&A which is utter bullshit. People who only rate others with 5s are getting away with it, people who only rate 1s are punished. There's a huge disincentive to rate people even remotely accurately. Automatic averages for ratings not given fixes this.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:07 pm

MeDeFe wrote:If a player not giving a rating counted as "average" (whether that's 3 stars or 0 points is irrelevant) for the recipient, the ratings that are actively given would finally become meaningful. If a player leaves no lasting impression that would make another person bother to give them a rating, they are best described as "average". It's perfectly fine to automatically assign them an average rating.
That's not "punishing" in the least, TFO, punishing would be to leave them a below average rating.


The only reasonable objection so far has been that if there are people who don't participate in the rating system, it can unreasonably unbalance the ratings of other players (for instance, if my rating is 1.9 and I play someone who never gives ratings, they are giving me a 0 even though they might give me a +2 if they actually did rate me). Thus I would recommend amending the suggestion to say that the 0 rating is given only if the person in question has actually left a rating before.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby temporos on Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:30 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:The only reasonable objection so far has been that if there are people who don't participate in the rating system, it can unreasonably unbalance the ratings of other players...

Hrm... You make a valid point, but I think it would work itself out in the long-run. Under the propsed system, players would have incentive to leave a rating only if their opponent was good or bad enough to make them want to rate you. If someone's never left a rating before, then it's probably because they have experienced no opponents they feel are worthy of their attention. If you happen to fall into that category of "unworthy of my ratings attention," then so be it. That's precisely what would make the system work properly.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby natty dread on Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:00 pm

TheForgivenOne wrote:The thing is, i don't get why we are Punishing people for NOT rating people.


Exactly how is an average rating a punishment?

If someone plays against you and doesn't bother rating you, this would mean that you failed to impress that player enough that he would bother rating you, ergo he has no opinion either way of you, which amounts to the same as "average". This is by no means a punishment, it's simply a statement that the player does not see you as exceptionally good or exceptionally bad.

How is it a punishment in any way? If the system is the same for everyone, just who is getting punished?

People will rate/not rate the same as ever, but the scale will be different, because this proposed system auto-corrects for expected rating behaviour and thus extends the scale so that really good and really bad players are easier to tell apart.

You gave someone a 3 star. What the TS is asking for, is if somebody does NOT rate anyone, their rating goes down. This new system is basically asking you to always rate people, or else it is basically like giving everyone average ratings. Suddenly people will be PMing you asking Why you didn't rate them. This rating system was brought in a long time ago.


People will get used to it. It may take a small while but eventually people will get used to the fact that only exceptional performance receives a rating. The rating system will regain it's meaning.

And why not just change it so that if someone doesn't rate, they just get the 3 stars? Because you are just moving the numbers from 1-5, to -2 - 2. Which i find really pointless


It's not pointless. It has to do with perception. In a 1-5 system, 3 is perceived as bad, because it's only 3 out of 5. But with a +/- system, 0 is more easily perceived as average, since there's a more obvious division to negative and positive ratings.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:42 pm

temporos wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:The only reasonable objection so far has been that if there are people who don't participate in the rating system, it can unreasonably unbalance the ratings of other players...

Hrm... You make a valid point, but I think it would work itself out in the long-run. Under the propsed system, players would have incentive to leave a rating only if their opponent was good or bad enough to make them want to rate you. If someone's never left a rating before, then it's probably because they have experienced no opponents they feel are worthy of their attention. If you happen to fall into that category of "unworthy of my ratings attention," then so be it. That's precisely what would make the system work properly.


My point is that this weeds out the people who actually never leave a rating at all. Inevitably there will be times that I feel my opponent is worthy of a +2 rating, but I just don't feel like rating him as such. This doesn't mean I feel he's average, and you can't stop those times from happening; of course, with this system people would have a new incentive to rate anyway. However, what you can stop is people who never rate at all from affecting the rating system. If someone has literally never left a rating, then it's unfair to conclude that their lack of a rating implies they feel their opponent was average.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby danfrank on Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:00 pm

an average rating is punishment because people are discriminating when running tourneys as well as joining clans.. I have seen as low as a 4.5 exceptable to join... So if all you receive is an average rating you can never join any of these as well as others... Lets face it .. Most everyone is average ...
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:26 pm

danfrank wrote:an average rating is punishment because people are discriminating when running tourneys as well as joining clans.. I have seen as low as a 4.5 exceptable to join... So if all you receive is an average rating you can never join any of these as well as others... Lets face it .. Most everyone is average ...


That's because empirically in the current system, 4.5 is actually a low rating. The point of this suggestion is to force the average number to change.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby natty dread on Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:31 pm

danfrank wrote:an average rating is punishment because people are discriminating when running tourneys as well as joining clans.. I have seen as low as a 4.5 exceptable to join... So if all you receive is an average rating you can never join any of these as well as others... Lets face it .. Most everyone is average ...



Errrm... you use some seriously flawed logic here.

If the rating system is changed so that it auto-corrects the median towards 0 then people will have no reason to demand high ratings from everyone. Currently people only use rating requirements of 4.5 and higher because the rating system is skewed so that the average is around 4.6.

Again, it is no punishment since it will be the same for everyone. If the majority of people on the site will have ratings close to 0 then why on earth would tournament organizers, clans etc. demand +1.5 ratings? They would run out of members/participants.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby jrh_cardinal on Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:02 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
danfrank wrote:an average rating is punishment because people are discriminating when running tourneys as well as joining clans.. I have seen as low as a 4.5 exceptable to join... So if all you receive is an average rating you can never join any of these as well as others... Lets face it .. Most everyone is average ...


That's because empirically in the current system, 4.5 is actually a low rating. The point of this suggestion is to force the average number to change.

but why? Everyone who's played even 50 games and cares enough to look at opponents ratings knows that 4.2 is a horrid rating. What's wrong with that?
Here, if everyone is playing random opponents, rating is essentially luck. Whoever gets lucky and plays against raters has a higher rating than those that don't. Yes, this would even out some over the long run, but what about people that play almost exclusively private/tournament games. They play against fewer opponents, thus their rating would go down less.
Or freemies with 1000 games and a 4.7 (average) rating? Their rating would almost never get under 1 in your new system. So in 2012 if you see a guy who has a 1.5 rating you think Holy Crap! That guy is a really awesome player! Or he has been freemie for a while or took a year+ break from CC so his rating hasn't dropped to 'average'.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:10 pm

jrh_cardinal wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
danfrank wrote:an average rating is punishment because people are discriminating when running tourneys as well as joining clans.. I have seen as low as a 4.5 exceptable to join... So if all you receive is an average rating you can never join any of these as well as others... Lets face it .. Most everyone is average ...


That's because empirically in the current system, 4.5 is actually a low rating. The point of this suggestion is to force the average number to change.

but why? Everyone who's played even 50 games and cares enough to look at opponents ratings knows that 4.2 is a horrid rating. What's wrong with that?


One problem is that you're compressing a 5 point system into a 1 point system, essentially. There's no point in having all those other numbers if you're not going to use them. The bigger problem, though, is when you have people who reject the notion that the scale should be 4-5 simply because everyone else does that. If you have someone who regularly gives 1's and 2's because they honestly feel that some of their opponents were bad, then they regularly get accused of being bad raters and abusing the system. Since there's no consistency, there's no way for people to know what the appropriate way to rate is.

Here, if everyone is playing random opponents, rating is essentially luck. Whoever gets lucky and plays against raters has a higher rating than those that don't. Yes, this would even out some over the long run, but what about people that play almost exclusively private/tournament games. They play against fewer opponents, thus their rating would go down less.


Very few people are not actually "raters." For instance, I only give ratings when I feel that there was some non-average circumstance (either the player was rather rude, or I thought the player was pretty good). This is exactly what the system tries to solve: in cases where I don't rate, it's usually because I think my opponent was nothing special. Thus the system takes care of rating that opponent as average, without me having to put in the time to do so for every person I play. The only situation your criticism applies to is if there are people who refuse to rate even when they play people who strike them as being particularly good or bad, and that's what my suggestion above tries to solve (ideally it would actually be: people who have not left a rating in the last month should not leave the average rating by default).

Or freemies with 1000 games and a 4.7 (average) rating? Their rating would almost never get under 1 in your new system. So in 2012 if you see a guy who has a 1.5 rating you think Holy Crap! That guy is a really awesome player! Or he has been freemie for a while or took a year+ break from CC so his rating hasn't dropped to 'average'.


I don't understand what you're getting at. In the new system their rating would be about 0, since that would be the new average. Of course, since there's no direct way to port over the current ratings, I imagine doing this would require a reset of all current ratings.
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