[Site] Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

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Should we change the rating system, or leave it as it is?

Yes, change it.
78
52%
No, leave it.
71
48%
 
Total votes : 149

Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby ccatman on Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:59 pm

first of all temporos honestly you only have 34 games played i think you need to learn the site a little better before you can make any judgements on other people and how they view ratings
and waseemallm what we've been trying to argue is the rating system we have now might have its downsides but it does have a purpose and does get 1 point across and that is who the awful people are you dont want to play with and who the ok people are and what this new suggestion will do is prevent you from telling whos really bad or really good because the ratings will be all closer to 0
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby MeDeFe on Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:49 am

ccatman wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:
jefjef wrote:LMAO!!!!!!! I sent a pm out Friday night to 1/2 my friends list and I see the no votes came rolling in. :D

All this crap sugg will accomplish is making most of us less distinguishable from those with really deservedly low crap ratings.

No thanks.

Not at all, you would still be at least 0.2 above the people who got crap ratings and every bit as distinguished as you are right now.

a .2 and 2.0 difference is actually very large difference

It's 0.2 now, it would still be 0.2 (or more) under the proposed system.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby ccatman on Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:29 am

MeDeFe wrote:
ccatman wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:
jefjef wrote:LMAO!!!!!!! I sent a pm out Friday night to 1/2 my friends list and I see the no votes came rolling in. :D

All this crap sugg will accomplish is making most of us less distinguishable from those with really deservedly low crap ratings.

No thanks.

Not at all, you would still be at least 0.2 above the people who got crap ratings and every bit as distinguished as you are right now.

a .2 and 2.0 difference is actually very large difference

It's 0.2 now, it would still be 0.2 (or more) under the proposed system.

maybe i missunderstood what you were saying
but the people who have crap ratings now i look at are people anywhere from 2.5-4.4
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby MeDeFe on Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:06 am

ccatman wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:
ccatman wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:
jefjef wrote:LMAO!!!!!!! I sent a pm out Friday night to 1/2 my friends list and I see the no votes came rolling in. :D

All this crap sugg will accomplish is making most of us less distinguishable from those with really deservedly low crap ratings.

No thanks.

Not at all, you would still be at least 0.2 above the people who got crap ratings and every bit as distinguished as you are right now.

a .2 and 2.0 difference is actually very large difference

It's 0.2 now, it would still be 0.2 (or more) under the proposed system.

maybe i missunderstood what you were saying
but the people who have crap ratings now i look at are people anywhere from 2.5-4.4

And under the proposed system you would be looking at people anywhere from 1-2.9 (Or -2 to 0, but I don't much like that version myself).
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby gimil on Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:11 am

I have not read this thread because I find all 15 pages a little overwealing to go through for the sake of what I want to say, so here it goes. if I have repeated something then jsut shoot me down!

The current rating system works fine for me but I think it could be improved upon rather than changed. My suggestion incorporates (sort of) the current rating system with aspects of temporos original suggestion in this thread.

If we maintain the current system (1-5 with 3 stars being the default average if you choose to leave feedback) and change how it is visually represented we may be able to change how people perceive it to work. rather than having 5 orange stars (as current) we have rating 1-2 (poor) as red, 3 (average) as orange and 4-5 (excellent) as green. With the visual cue of different colours then people may get behind the idea of making average ratings (3's) as standard rather than always giving excellent (5's) as ratings.

Does that make sense? When I get home I will throw something up in photoshop to try and better represent what I am saying. If people think I am talking nonsense let me know and I will shut up. (maybe O:) )
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:16 am

gimil wrote:If we maintain the current system (1-5 with 3 stars being the default average if you choose to leave feedback) and change how it is visually represented we may be able to change how people perceive it to work. rather than having 5 orange stars (as current) we have rating 1-2 (poor) as red, 3 (average) as orange and 4-5 (excellent) as green. With the visual cue of different colours then people may get behind the idea of making average ratings (3's) as standard rather than always giving excellent (5's) as ratings.

Does that make sense? When I get home I will throw something up in photoshop to try and better represent what I am saying. If people think I am talking nonsense let me know and I will shut up. (maybe O:) )


I believe this would be antithetical to the goal. temporos points out (and I agree) that the reason people don't give low ratings is because they're stuck in the "everyone's a winner" mentality. If you change the lower stars to red, which most people would agree indicates something worse, then you make it even less likely to get low ratings because people don't want to do something like that, which would stick out even more blatantly.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby temporos on Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:46 am

TheForgivenOne wrote:Wow, you really are taking this Online gaming site to heart.

I do nothing half-assed. That includes on-line gaming sites and forums. I expect nothing less than pure logic from myself and everyone else. If one doesn't take Conquer Club "to heart," then perhaps he should find something that is more worthy of his time and attention.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby Victor Sullivan on Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:33 pm

temporos wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:Wow, you really are taking this Online gaming site to heart.

I do nothing half-assed. That includes on-line gaming sites and forums. I expect nothing less than pure logic from myself and everyone else. If one doesn't take Conquer Club "to heart," then perhaps he should find something that is more worthy of his time and attention.

I can't explain how shweet of a statement this is, so I will sig it. :D
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby ccatman on Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:25 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
gimil wrote:If we maintain the current system (1-5 with 3 stars being the default average if you choose to leave feedback) and change how it is visually represented we may be able to change how people perceive it to work. rather than having 5 orange stars (as current) we have rating 1-2 (poor) as red, 3 (average) as orange and 4-5 (excellent) as green. With the visual cue of different colours then people may get behind the idea of making average ratings (3's) as standard rather than always giving excellent (5's) as ratings.

Does that make sense? When I get home I will throw something up in photoshop to try and better represent what I am saying. If people think I am talking nonsense let me know and I will shut up. (maybe O:) )


I believe this would be antithetical to the goal. temporos points out (and I agree) that the reason people don't give low ratings is because they're stuck in the "everyone's a winner" mentality. If you change the lower stars to red, which most people would agree indicates something worse, then you make it even less likely to get low ratings because people don't want to do something like that, which would stick out even more blatantly.

actually thats false i think
all you guys are running on now is hope thats all that you have and as temporos said "i expect nothing less than pure logic" hope is not logic
and to add to this i've already told you i will not change the way i rate judgeing by the poll other people are NOT going to change the way they rate and even if some people do change the way they rate we cant have half the people voting differently then the other half on the site because that just messes up the rating system even more
we already have a system that is accurate to the point where it has a purpose and it does get the point across of whos who. the mods dont need to waste there time here they need to fix or add other things to the game that people want to see in the game that MIGHT ACTUALLY WORK
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby gimil on Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:44 pm

ccatman wrote:actually thats false i think
all you guys are running on now is hope thats all that you have and as temporos said "i expect nothing less than pure logic" hope is not logic
and to add to this i've already told you i will not change the way i rate judgeing by the poll other people are NOT going to change the way they rate and even if some people do change the way they rate we cant have half the people voting differently then the other half on the site because that just messes up the rating system even more
we already have a system that is accurate to the point where it has a purpose and it does get the point across of whos who. the mods dont need to waste there time here they need to fix or add other things to the game that people want to see in the game that MIGHT ACTUALLY WORK


point taken ccatman, I personally feel that my idea is the way the rating system should work and (i think) this was the way it was intended to work. However like you said it is not a priority, but rather something I would like to see done due to my own biased opinion on the rating system.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby stahrgazer on Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:49 pm

jefjef wrote:LMAO!!!!!!! I sent a pm out Friday night to 1/2 my friends list and I see the no votes came rolling in. :D

All this crap sugg will accomplish is making most of us less distinguishable from those with really deservedly low crap ratings.

No thanks.


Bingo.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:23 am

Just out of curiosity, jefjef and company, do you think that's something we're ignoring when we support this suggestion?
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby stahrgazer on Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:44 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:Just out of curiosity, jefjef and company, do you think that's something we're ignoring when we support this suggestion?


Yes, I think you're ignoring it or think that's of benefit. I disagree that making really bad ratings look indistinguishable from really good ratings constitutes "a good thing."

If the premise is, "no one is using the ratings system the way we interpret that it should be used," this change doesn't change what's wrong with that system.

You're suggesting that "no rating" be made equivalent to "average rating" and you're suggesting that the rating numbers be moved closer together. This assumes that the reasons people are not using the rating system the way you think it should be used is because whenever they're not rating, they're not rating "an average player."

Perhaps the premise is, if every game got fed into the rating system, that would force people to actually punch the thing to put in the stars they think are appropriate.

1) I don't care to be forced, thank you
2) You still cannot force people to use the rating system the way you interpret is appropriate, even if this change goes through to "force" people to use the system at all
3) You're simply changing the way things are skewed, not changing the fact that things are generally skewed
4) I don't see the purpose of making a change that won't fix things; that's "change for change's sake" rather than change based on rational thinking.
5) At least with the current system, a player can see whether another player is really popular or really unpopular, which means it's not all that broken after all.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:56 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:Just out of curiosity, jefjef and company, do you think that's something we're ignoring when we support this suggestion?


Yes, I think you're ignoring it or think that's of benefit. I disagree that making really bad ratings look indistinguishable from really good ratings constitutes "a good thing."


No, I just disagree with the premise in the first place. It's true that there probably won't be anyone ranked -1.8 in the new system. Still, even if the bad players are ranked -0.6, which is likely, you'll still be able to tell them apart. It is not the case that everyone will be ranked within -0.3 to 0.3. It's just true that the people that aren't exceptionally bad (or good) will probably be near there.

If the premise is, "no one is using the ratings system the way we interpret that it should be used," this change doesn't change what's wrong with that system.


No, but it's pretty hard to fix that issue. This is the next best solution.

You're suggesting that "no rating" be made equivalent to "average rating" and you're suggesting that the rating numbers be moved closer together. This assumes that the reasons people are not using the rating system the way you think it should be used is because whenever they're not rating, they're not rating "an average player."


Incorrect inference. I addressed this a couple of pages ago.

Perhaps the premise is, if every game got fed into the rating system, that would force people to actually punch the thing to put in the stars they think are appropriate.

1) I don't care to be forced, thank you


You're not forced to do anything. You can continue to rate the same way you want to after the change, if you so desire. I only hope that people will be motivated to rate differently because of this. I have no illusions that anyone will feel forced.

2) You still cannot force people to use the rating system the way you interpret is appropriate, even if this change goes through to "force" people to use the system at all


Not trying to. Only hoping that people will use all of the rating scale, if possible.

3) You're simply changing the way things are skewed, not changing the fact that things are generally skewed


Irrelevant. Not a reason to not do this.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby ccatman on Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:08 pm

good job again you have managed to respond to another users post without giving any facts why this is a good idea
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby dazerazer on Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:31 pm

Okay so here's my opinion. (Not sure if this was already mentioned as I did not spend a lot of time reading 15 pages of replys.)

If you all want a better response from ratings, try changing the format of how we can rate players. As it stands, we have to go to our "recently finished games" page and click on each individual player for the games leave a rating where it then takes us back to that page and we have to rinse and repeat.

For me personally, if we had a ratings page that had a list of players we could leave ratings for with empty stars under each of their names and a tiny map and hyperlink of the game we played with them next to their name (in case we needed to remember which game it was) it would be soooo much easier to leave ratings as it would not take nearly as long. We could then just hit "Save Ratings" at the bottom of the page and BOOM... easy cheesy!

For example the ratings page could be something like this:

"You can leave ratings for 5 people:

1. Master Fenrir (insert game number / map )
Fair Play xxxxx ; Gameplay xxxxx ; Attitude xxxxx
Show/Hide explanatory tags (set to hide by default unless you want to leave a tag then click show and check said boxes)

2. John Deere (insert game number / map )
Fair Play xxxxx ; Gameplay xxxxx ; Attitude xxxxx
Show/Hide explanatory tags

3. BKWill (insert game number / map )
Fair Play xxxxx ; Gameplay xxxxx ; Attitude xxxxx
Show/Hide explanatory tags

4. ccatman (insert game number / map )
Fair Play xxxxx ; Gameplay xxxxx ; Attitude xxxxx
Show/Hide explanatory tags

5. tdans (insert game number / map )
Fair Play xxxxx ; Gameplay xxxxx ; Attitude xxxxx
Show/Hide explanatory tags

SAVE RATINGS or UPDATE RATINGS"

So that is my thoughts on it. If you want to implement a new rating system all together I would start first with something like this. Make it less cumbersome to leave ratings and then reevaluation of a new ratings system might be more welcome by all.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby MNDuke on Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:18 pm

dazerazer wrote:Okay so here's my opinion. (Not sure if this was already mentioned as I did not spend a lot of time reading 15 pages of replys.)

If you all want a better response from ratings, try changing the format of how we can rate players. As it stands, we have to go to our "recently finished games" page and click on each individual player for the games leave a rating where it then takes us back to that page and we have to rinse and repeat.

For me personally, if we had a ratings page that had a list of players we could leave ratings for with empty stars under each of their names and a tiny map and hyperlink of the game we played with them next to their name (in case we needed to remember which game it was) it would be soooo much easier to leave ratings as it would not take nearly as long. We could then just hit "Save Ratings" at the bottom of the page and BOOM... easy cheesy!

For example the ratings page could be something like this:

"You can leave ratings for 5 people:

1. Master Fenrir (insert game number / map )
Fair Play xxxxx ; Gameplay xxxxx ; Attitude xxxxx
Show/Hide explanatory tags (set to hide by default unless you want to leave a tag then click show and check said boxes)

2. John Deere (insert game number / map )
Fair Play xxxxx ; Gameplay xxxxx ; Attitude xxxxx
Show/Hide explanatory tags

3. BKWill (insert game number / map )
Fair Play xxxxx ; Gameplay xxxxx ; Attitude xxxxx
Show/Hide explanatory tags

4. ccatman (insert game number / map )
Fair Play xxxxx ; Gameplay xxxxx ; Attitude xxxxx
Show/Hide explanatory tags

5. tdans (insert game number / map )
Fair Play xxxxx ; Gameplay xxxxx ; Attitude xxxxx
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SAVE RATINGS or UPDATE RATINGS"

So that is my thoughts on it. If you want to implement a new rating system all together I would start first with something like this. Make it less cumbersome to leave ratings and then reevaluation of a new ratings system might be more welcome by all.


So kind of like Ebay and how you can leave feedback. I like it. Although I kind of think the ratings system should just be done away with all together. It seems almost pointless. Or revise it from 5 stars to 3. Bad, Ok and Good. However it's done I like the idea of being able to rate everyone on one page.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:03 pm

LOL, these ideas were tried and eliminated or rejected already because of the time involved monitoring, or encourage abuse, etc.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:06 pm

temporos wrote:Concise description:
  • Migrate from a "1 to 5" star system to a "-2 to +2" star system.

Specifics/Details:
  • Right now: 1 is bad, 5 is awesome.
  • Migrate to: -2 is bad, +2 is awesome.
  • Migration should be retroactive.
  • Lack of a rating should be counted as a 0 or "average" rating.

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • Right now, the average player rating is about 4.8 stars: well above the 3 star "average."
  • If the scale is adjusted such that "average" is 0, anything below average is negative, and anything above average is positive, the average player rating will naturally stabilize around 0.
  • If a player does not wish to leave a rating for his opponents after a match, it counts as a 0 or "average" rating.
  • This proposed system will encourage a more intuitive and reliable measure of a player's attitude, gameplay, and sociability.
  • Players would be compelled to leave a rating only if they wish to leave an above or below average rating for another player.
  • Players aren't left jaded when someone leaves them a less-than-5-star rating (i.e., everybody wins).

This won't accomplish anything, really.

Attitudes will just adjust to the new numbers. Those who don't like it, still won't. Those who do, still will.

There are problems, but this won't fix anything.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby macbone on Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:16 am

My job is pretty interesting. We have ratings on a scale of 1 to 5, 1 being completely unacceptable, 5 being excellent, but truthfully, if we're rated at 3, we're below our threshold, which is really somewhere around 4.1.

On CC, a rating of 4.1 isn't great, and I think most of us know that, whether we recognize it or not. I'm curious what the actual ranges are. What, maybe 4.9+ is superior, 4.7-4.8 is outstanding, 4.5-4.6 is above average? I'm not really sure, but the rating system does work. If I see that someone has a rating of 4.0, I have a good idea about what kind of player he or she is.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby bob72 on Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:27 am

I voted no I like the idea but would pefer any development time to be spent elsewhere.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby Darwins_Bane on Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:52 pm

I feel like this has a reached the conclusion of its discussion, moving to submitted.
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02:59:29 ‹Khan22› wouldn't you love to have like 5 or 6 girls all giving you attention?
10/11/2010 02:59:39 ‹TheForgivenOne› No.
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby vrex on Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:39 pm

hmm all very interesting...

the main issue here, purely in my opinion, is human response.

right now we humans respond to the current system in the way that we do {whichever way that is, per individual person}

as faulty as this response becomes/is with some giving 5's in order to avoid 'abuse reports' or whatever how can we fail to look at the current (and established) result?

established result- the average can be determined as 4.5 {or whatever it was}
therefore, we humans can assume 4.7+ is a good player and 4.3 and below is not a good player {these numbers can change via the eyes of any individual}
therefore, we humans can determine which players are good/bad

As far as i know, this is the only purpose of the rating system: to determine who is bad/good.
{congrats, its been achieved}

not going to get into the long discussions i saw... but please state if you see in error in my logic here
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0) [Stickied ~ TFO]

Postby Dukasaur on Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:20 pm

Darwins_Bane wrote:I feel like this has a reached the conclusion of its discussion, moving to submitted.

Time to implement!
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Re: Normalize Player Ratings (Average = 0)

Postby zimmah on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:55 am

TheForgivenOne wrote:
temporos wrote:Then, at this point, I guess my question changes to, "Why bother with a rating system at all?" Regardless of your intention, your response is a strong argument for never rating anyone and ignoring those ratings which are given.


I rate every now and then, so i'm not saying it's pointless. If i do see someone with a 4.0 rating, then obviously they aren't fun to play with. But if you start punishing players, all because someone decides not to rate, then there will be more outcries from everyone.


that's the whole point. 4.0 is above average, so this rating system is flawed. I have been saying it since the start.
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