[MED] Special Clan member contribution achievement award.

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Re: Special Clan member achievement award.

Postby jefjef on Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:07 am

it is not necessary for the recipient of this medal to actually play any war games all year.


Yes it would be necessary for the recipient to be an active player and active in the clan and a member for at least a year. Why in the world would a non active player deserve any recognition.

FYI: If KOA were allowed to grant this award today it would go to IcePack. He was a major factor in forming and recruiting. He has performed Minister of War duties. He had been my map rank guy. He is managing an important thread in our forum. He also has been a positive influence and a friendly representative of KOA.

We have several members that also contribute their valuable time and talents but I don't think anyone could really argue against IcePacks clan contributions. Now if I were to give the award to, lets say bruinMBA (who is not active), just because he is a good long time CC pal of mine I'm sure all of KOA would tell me to f-off and ram it. Especially those that do contribute. The moral of the story is that the award should not be handed out lightly or unjustly and only to an active contributing member.
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Re: Special Clan member achievement award.

Postby chapcrap on Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:21 am

jefjef wrote:
it is not necessary for the recipient of this medal to actually play any war games all year.


Yes it would be necessary for the recipient to be an active player and active in the clan and a member for at least a year. Why in the world would a non active player deserve any recognition.

FYI: If KOA were allowed to grant this award today it would go to IcePack. He was a major factor in forming and recruiting. He has performed Minister of War duties. He had been my map rank guy. He is managing an important thread in our forum. He also has been a positive influence and a friendly representative of KOA.

We have several members that also contribute their valuable time and talents but I don't think anyone could really argue against IcePacks clan contributions. Now if I were to give the award to, lets say bruinMBA (who is not active), just because he is a good long time CC pal of mine I'm sure all of KOA would tell me to f-off and ram it. Especially those that do contribute. The moral of the story is that the award should not be handed out lightly or unjustly and only to an active contributing member.

I might tell you to f-off and ram it anyway, but that doesn't have anything to do with this thread. ;)
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Re: Special Clan member achievement award.

Postby eddie2 on Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:38 am

well ok fair be it and jefjef icepack is the only one you can actually prove he is doing a valid job in running wars. the other ones if you are not winning any wars you can not say you have a mvp apart from a player running a thread or 2. lets look at you op

It would be great for leaders to be able to recognize a member for improvements/overall performance/managing wars/training/attitude/assisting/stats keeping - for whatever reason each clans leaders would decide.


things in blue are things you can prove. but would also come under what chemefrank is talking about in a war mvp medal.

things in red if you are not winning wars then they cannot really be putting time and effort into it. it is all good but if admin allow what clan directors are discussing then they are not going to allow the issueing of another medal when they have already had one for this. now jefjef you quoted what chemefreak said.
chemefreak wrote:Soon we will be issuing MVP awards for clan wars. I believe that this is starting for any clan war that began after July 1, 2011. We are still nailing down the exact "science" of the award, but to be honest, it is pretty easy to see who the MVP for each clan was once you review the numbers.


so this in red they are still discussing it . So things like what i put in red from your op could actually come into this medal. because if you are winning wars then you can prove your clan members are actually putting some effort into what they are doing.

but keep it as it is like i said i am not opposed to it. I just feel that admin won't allow the awarding of a medal for the same thing 2 times or for something that cannot be proven(in your clans performance.)
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Re: Special Clan member achievement award.

Postby QoH on Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:53 am

Do you not get it Eddie? This is NOT an mvp award. This is a CONTRIBUTION award. Just cause you don't win doesn't mean you don't contribute in enormous was in the clan. Look at TNC. When I was with them, they challenged a ton of high ranked clamer right from the start (i think). Do you expect them to win any off those? No. Bit can you deny that somone wasn't putting in hours of work wroth of recognition? Obviously somone has. They'd deserve it, regardless of whether they were winning.

Again, you shouldn't have to win to get this medal.
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Re: Special Clan member achievement award.

Postby eddie2 on Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:43 am

QoH wrote:Do you not get it Eddie? This is NOT an mvp award. This is a CONTRIBUTION award. Just cause you don't win doesn't mean you don't contribute in enormous was in the clan. Look at TNC. When I was with them, they challenged a ton of high ranked clamer right from the start (i think). Do you expect them to win any off those? No. Bit can you deny that somone wasn't putting in hours of work wroth of recognition? Obviously somone has. They'd deserve it, regardless of whether they were winning.

Again, you shouldn't have to win to get this medal.


yes i do get that Qoh but the problem being how do you prove they have done what you are saying. at present the only mods that have the ability to issue special medals is department heads. and they are not allowed to hand them out left right and centre. sorry but if a clan cannot win any for of challenge then they do not have 1 single player doing the extra work apart from the person that is running the thread or creating the games. But this will be covered in clan mods new medal .
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Re: Special Clan member achievement award.

Postby jefjef on Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:13 pm

eddie2 wrote:
QoH wrote:Do you not get it Eddie? This is NOT an mvp award. This is a CONTRIBUTION award. Just cause you don't win doesn't mean you don't contribute in enormous was in the clan. Look at TNC. When I was with them, they challenged a ton of high ranked clamer right from the start (i think). Do you expect them to win any off those? No. Bit can you deny that somone wasn't putting in hours of work wroth of recognition? Obviously somone has. They'd deserve it, regardless of whether they were winning.

Again, you shouldn't have to win to get this medal.


yes i do get that Qoh but the problem being how do you prove they have done what you are saying. at present the only mods that have the ability to issue special medals is department heads. and they are not allowed to hand them out left right and centre. sorry but if a clan cannot win any for of challenge then they do not have 1 single player doing the extra work apart from the person that is running the thread or creating the games. But this will be covered in clan mods new medal .


The whole idea of this 1 medal per year is a discretionary medal that leaders award to a member they feel is very deserving of it for their contributions to the clan. The proving of it is the fact that the clan was active. The other proving of it is that other members don't go up in arms against leaders that might unjustly award this. To insinuate that if a clan fails to win a war that no one is doing any above and beyond work is ludicrous.

You have had your say and your attempt to derail this. Please step away.
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Re: Special Clan member achievement award.

Postby eddie2 on Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:55 pm

i am not derailing this jefjef plz read the tourney section if i have a co runner of a tourney he is not sure to get a medal.
There can be a MAX of 2 medals per tournament, except under extremely rare and special circumstances, which the Tournament Directors will discuss and decide upon. Take this into consideration when planning your tournaments. If you are a co-organizer, you are not guaranteed a medal just for that, you must prove you have done a significant amount of work to help the tournament move forward to completion. This would include things such as creating games, record-keeping, and sending PMs to players. The awarding of medals to co-organizers will be considered on a case-by-case basis. We recommend that tournaments be run by one person as often as possible to avoid confusion.


this sug you are saying they have to go by the word of a leader that a member has done some work for the clan. if they are not winning tourneys then people cant be researching other clans cant be training in games. the proof is on site in other sections admin will not allow any form of medal issueing without proof of extra work. my posts have been surronding this data from tourney section (don't dare say clans are different to tourney rules. because cla have been stating they are ever since we started using privs.) so either provide some form of way to prove a player deserves it. or watch your sug just get lost in many other brill sugs that et looked over.
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Re: Special Clan member achievement award.

Postby Bones2484 on Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:39 pm

eddie2 wrote:don't dare say clans are different to tourney rules. because cla have been stating they are ever since we started using privs


Just when I thought your whole argument could be even more wrong, you go ahead and prove me wrong. if you bothered to read ANYTHING Jpcloet and Night Strike have ever said during your short stays in the CLA you would realize how horribly incorrect this statement is.

Eddie, just stop. You are trolling this thread and embarrassing yourself yet again.
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Re: Special Clan member achievement award.

Postby jefjef on Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:26 pm

this sug you are saying they have to go by the word of a leader that a member has done some work for the clan.


What do you not get??????

This sugg is for a discretionary medal to be awarded to a member chosen by leaders to show thanks for that members contribution. Win or lose.

Your comment "they are not winning tourneys then people cant be researching other clans cant be training in games". is bs. You can train and research and play a perfect game and still lose. Ever hear of dice? Now please cease.

Hey mets I believe the validity of this sugg and the overwhelming support of it has earned this sugg the right to go to submission.
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Re: Special Clan member achievement award.

Postby MegasWoman on Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:08 pm

Eddie...you've been told to stay away from JJ and you've also been asked several times to stop posting in this thread. If you'd like your own thread go create one. This medal has absolutely nothing to do with tourneys...now go away.
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Re: Special Clan member contribution achievement award.

Postby TheForgivenOne on Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:08 am

Eddie, you have been told before to stay away from jefjef. You have presented your case many times, and jefjef and others have responded to them enough. They have been telling you that this is not an MVP award. This is also a once a year medal handed out. Do you really think that his is going to be abused by players in clans, saying "player x did all this work", when it was actually player y? There is an undeniable amount of work done behind the scenes by each clan. Do you really think that these players don't deserve recognition for all this work?
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Re: Special Clan member contribution achievement award.

Postby eddie2 on Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:00 am

TheForgivenOne wrote:Eddie, you have been told before to stay away from jefjef. You have presented your case many times, and jefjef and others have responded to them enough. They have been telling you that this is not an MVP award. This is also a once a year medal handed out. Do you really think that his is going to be abused by players in clans, saying "player x did all this work", when it was actually player y? There is an undeniable amount of work done behind the scenes by each clan. Do you really think that these players don't deserve recognition for all this work?


tfo i am not saying that clan members do not deserve it. i think i got lost in what i was trying to say. What i am saying is that in all aspects of special medals on the site that are being awarded there needs to be proof of what they have done. Just now there are 45 active clans can you really expect admin to go from only allowing department heads to hand out medals all the way down to letting a clan leaders decide 1 member of each clan = 45 medals with no proof to back it up.

i feel the thing that has been pissing me off more about this thread is the fact at no point have i said i am against the idea of it. but certain members have been highlighting that i am. what i have done is made ideas how to maybe get round the weak parts of this sug.(ie incorparate clan mods idea into it.) also the fact that some clans it is only the leaders that do the behind the scene work for the clan. But they would not qualify for the medal. Like i have been saying i like the idea but it needs to be finalised on all aspects or it will not move on. You should understand that bit tfo since you are a sugs mod.
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Re: Special Clan member contribution achievement award.

Postby jefjef on Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:30 am

An actively warring clan and active war participation by members is the "proof".

If a clan is actively participating in clan activities it is pretty well a guarantee that the leaders are not doing 100% of the work. Win or Lose. Not all clans would qualify for this award either. Not all of them meet the criteria of 4 medal qualifying wars so just being a clan would not automatically qualify then for this priv.

This sugg also has CD support and they are the ones that would be issuing them.

It would be really great if we can show our appreciation to those that help make our clans and this site enjoyable. How could CC say no, or even want to say no, to that.
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Re: Special Clan member contribution achievement award.

Postby jeraado on Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:12 am

I think some of the responses were a mite harsh on Eddie there, I think he's trying to make a couple of valid points but they're just getting lost a bit.

Point 1 (Which I think has been pretty well covered) - How will this be differentiated from the MVP award?

The MVP award would be for the best player within an individual clan war, awarded to the player who contributes to the team's win through their actions within the war.
The contribution award would be for the best overall contributor to a clan, awarded to the player who contributes the most to the clan's operations outside competing for the clan war.
In the examples you gave I believe that the items like training, scouting opponents etc would qualify for the contribution award and not the MVP award. It shouldn't be too difficult to draw a line between the two, and might just need a post if/when the suggestion is implemented giving some guidelines between the two. I'd also agree with your point about conflicting with the MVP award, if it seemed that the mods felt that this threatened their idea. Since they've come out in support of it, I think we can safely say that there is room for both to exist.

Point 2 - How will nominees be able to prove they deserve the award

Actually I think that this is a self-correcting problem. Jefjef's example about KOA stands up - if someone who has not provided a contribution to the clan were nominated, the clan would intercede anyway. There may not be 100% agreement about who earns the award on any given year, but if an undeserving member were nominated you can be sure the other members of the clan would speak up.

I'd think of it like the awarding of a general achievement medal in a tournament. The TDs approve the initial criteria for the medal and allow the tourney to run. Once it finishes the TO identifies the winner of the GA medal and the TDs award it. I'm pretty sure the TDs don't go through and check the games to make sure the correct winner is listed, instead they trust that the TO will keep honest records, and they know that if the TO doesn't then it will be raised by one of the participants. The TDs know that as long as the criteria is agreed beforehand and the reasons for the award are published, that this provides a safeguard in itself. (Apologies to the TDs if I've made that up, but hopefully the logic stands anyway).

As for the final point about clans who haven't won, I think that suggesting that no-one has earnt a contribution is mighty harsh. KOA didn't win our first couple of wars, but there were still a few people in the clan who put in a shedload of work. Perhaps the reasons for a nominee from a clan who hadn't won could be looked at a little more closely if there was a suggestion that the medal may not be deserved, but I can't think of any clan at the moment who would be eligible for the award but who is likely to have no-one who deserves to be awarded one.
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Re: Special Clan member contribution achievement award.

Postby eddie2 on Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:54 am

thank you jeraado someone that is willing to actually discuss things. so mvp award from what i have been told could also include the players that do any form of work for a clan that helps them with winning the wars. if the mvp award does bring these in then this sug wont go anywhere because i cannot see admin allowing a medal to be issued 2 times.

you bring up the fact koa didn't win there first couple of wars but you have won a war now.(you are still in your first year so have shown improvement.) the other thing that is really bugging me about this sug is the fact that i know a couple of clans that award there players that do all the work with a place in leadership you are allowed 4 leaders of a clan koa have gave a example of icepack. but really the amount of work he does do for koa he should be awarded aclan leader position but this would dis allow him from this medal if it does go through as things stand just now.

like i have been saying this sug is good but it needs fine tuned before going to submitted . also since the opening post before any form of editing included things like 1 war win needed, no leaders allowed the medal, etc the list of clans in agreement to this sug needs to be revised because more than half of them actually posted before the revised version of this sug. also clan directors are not backing this 100 percent in this thread like what has been said. you have only had 1 mod say this is a good sug but also saying it was similar to a mvp award already in discussion. so you do really also need to get a 100 percent backing from clan directors for this, Masli is the mod that will have the final say on the matter even if admin allow it he will be the one to say yes or no.
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Re: Special Clan member contribution achievement award.

Postby QoH on Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:15 am

eddie2 wrote:thank you jeraado someone that is willing to actually discuss things. so mvp award from what i have been told could also include the players that do any form of work for a clan that helps them with winning the wars. if the mvp award does bring these in then this sug wont go anywhere because i cannot see admin allowing a medal to be issued 2 times.


You still don't get it, do you Eddie? The mvp is going to be for most wins in a clan war. People who contribute in other ways besides playing games to help them win a war won't get the mvp: they get the contribution medal, whether they win the war or not.
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Re: Special Clan member contribution achievement award.

Postby chapcrap on Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:25 am

eddie, I have been willing to discuss with you this whole time, you just haven't been making any kind of good point until you caught so much flack from everyone that you decided to back off of your proposition to merge this with the Clan War MVP.

QoH is right, the MVP award will be given at the CDs discretion based almost solely on gameplay within the war, not based on training, recruiting, and homework on opposing clans.

If you award clan leader positions to those who help out and there is a limit of 4, what happens if you have more than 4 people doing a lot of work? Helping the clan out a lot? I don't really think that a clan needs that many 'leaders'. I for one, help out as much as I can and it was never with the hopes of usurping my leaders. You can't just keep adding leaders for those who are helping. This medal would encourage everyone to help. Just because you think that someone who is helpful to the clan should be promoted to a leadership position, does not mean that's how other clans feel and that is not the status quo for all clans.

You are changing your stance to say that the suggestion is good and now only needs fine tuned. Before you were trying a merger/overhaul of the idea. I'm happy that you changed your stance, but you still aren't helping fine tune anything either. You are only listing a bunch of things that you perceive are needed. Everyone who has posted support, would still support this. There was almost unanimous support and the fact that the parameters of the medal have changed slightly (the changes have made more people and clans qualify) would not change whether or not people supported the idea.

And suggestions do not NEED unanimous support as you are trying to make it seem.
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Re: Special Clan member contribution achievement award.

Postby eddie2 on Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:35 am

chapcrap wrote:
QoH is right, the MVP award will be given at the CDs discretion based almost solely on gameplay within the war, not based on training, recruiting, and homework on opposing clans.


did chemefreak actually say that the mvp award will be based solely on game play no he did not this is what he said.

Soon we will be issuing MVP awards for clan wars. I believe that this is starting for any clan war that began after July 1, 2011. We are still nailing down the exact "science" of the award,


have any of you even bothered asking a clan director what the exact science would be for the issueing of the award. I will say no you have not. because if you had you would know what i know. and would see i was only hel;ping jefjef get part of his sug approved.
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Re: Special Clan member contribution achievement award.

Postby chapcrap on Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:37 pm

eddie2 wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
QoH is right, the MVP award will be given at the CDs discretion based almost solely on gameplay within the war, not based on training, recruiting, and homework on opposing clans.


did chemefreak actually say that the mvp award will be based solely on game play no he did not this is what he said.

Soon we will be issuing MVP awards for clan wars. I believe that this is starting for any clan war that began after July 1, 2011. We are still nailing down the exact "science" of the award,


have any of you even bothered asking a clan director what the exact science would be for the issueing of the award. I will say no you have not. because if you had you would know what i know. and would see i was only hel;ping jefjef get part of his sug approved.

If it's going to be a "science" and the CDs are awarding based on what they see, then how do expect them to incorporate anything other than gameplay? How will they know about training and recruiting and everything behind the scenes? They won't know! Because it's behind the scenes!

AND

Even if they did know, there would be no science in using that information because it is subjective, not objective. So, unless cheme misspoke, you can infer that it is only based on gameplay.
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Re: Special Clan member contribution achievement award.

Postby eddie2 on Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:43 pm

chapcrap wrote: you can infer that it is only based on gameplay.


like i said previously maybe ask a clan director to clarify the info behind the mvp award.
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Re: Special Clan contribution award.

Postby jefjef on Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:55 pm

Post from page 5 in it's FULL context.

chemefreak wrote:This is fun! I was thinking that at the end of each year the CDs could pm the leaders of certain clans (perhaps clans that have been "around" for the entire year) and ask them who their award should go to. Then the clans themselves can determine by voting or whatever who in their clan gets the medal. Just a thought.

Issuing medals is not too difficult. I am going to issue one right now to jefjef for this idea ;)

Soon we will be issuing MVP awards for clan wars. I believe that this is starting for any clan war that began after July 1, 2011. We are still nailing down the exact "science" of the award, but to be honest, it is pretty easy to see who the MVP for each clan was once you review the numbers. Every now and then there will be a tough call, but it should be an interesting exercise, none the less.

As far as the theory that this would take medal issuing out of CC's control, I'm not sure that is exactly true. Now, at this point, Masli may say that this is not going to happen or perhaps even admin will step and say we can't issue medals for this purpose. But I think it is a nice way to reward certain members of our clans that may not get all the wins, etc. Also, as indicated previously, I would be happy to head the operation on behalf of the CDs should this get implemented.

I have put a link to this thread in the CD forum and will see if it can gain any traction.
This post was made by jefjef who should be on your ignore list.
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Re: Special Clan member contribution achievement award.

Postby eddie2 on Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:14 pm

once again instead of quoting a full post why not ask a clan director what this part means.
We are still nailing down the exact "science" of the award,


have a think a minite if what i was saying about the mvp award being issued for any of the reasons put in this thread do you not think a clan director would of stepped in already and said it was not going to be. (i am 100 percent sure they would off.) like i said i am 99.99 percen that the mvp award after a clan winning a war can be awarded to players who done work behind the scenes to help with the win (including database runners, players that train the clan, and other things that made the win possible.) but like i said and by the last 2 posts made none of you have actually contacted a clan director via pm to find out all the info surronding the mvp award.
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Re: Special Clan member contribution achievement award.

Postby Bones2484 on Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:39 pm

eddie2 wrote:like i said i am 99.99 percen that the mvp award after a clan winning a war can be awarded to players who done work behind the scenes to help with the win (including database runners, players that train the clan, and other things that made the win possible.)


And I am 99.99% sure that you are wrong. They quote that you keep taking out of context goes on to say "it is pretty easy to see who the MVP for each clan was once you review the numbers". This means it's based off win/loss numbers, not people who did work behind the scenes. Not only that, but Cheme goes on to say that jef's idea "is a nice way to reward certain members of our clans that may not get all the wins" FURTHER implying that the MVP award is based off win/loss records in some fashion.

How many times do you have to be asked to leave this thread alone since you clearly do not have a clue?
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Re: Special Clan member contribution achievement award.

Postby chemefreak on Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:49 pm

Dear God! The proposed MVP award that I pitched to Masli is simply that a clan that has been around for a required minimum amount of time (a year perhaps?) would be contacted by the CDs in, say, December of each year, and then that clan could choose its MVP based on whatever criteria it wants. Then the CDs could award the medal. Also, as I stated previously, this will be an uphill battle with admin that I am not sure Masli would ever want to fight. I do think it is a good and fun idea, but the simpler we keep it the better. We are already starting the process of awarding MVP awards for clan wars to each clan. That process seems to be pretty simple as it is usually pretty clear who the best player (in terms of win/loss, number of games, array of games, etc.) is from a certain war.

Anyway, the idea is in the system and we will just have to wait and see what happens. As you all know, I am but a secretary in the clan world with no real authority ;) Good lively discussion here, though.

Cheers,

Nick
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Re: Special Clan member contribution achievement award.

Postby Bones2484 on Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:02 pm

chemefreak wrote:Dear God! The proposed MVP award that I pitched to Masli is simply that a clan that has been around for a required minimum amount of time (a year perhaps?) would be contacted by the CDs in, say, December of each year, and then that clan could choose its MVP based on whatever criteria it wants. Then the CDs could award the medal. Also, as I stated previously, this will be an uphill battle with admin that I am not sure Masli would ever want to fight. I do think it is a good and fun idea, but the simpler we keep it the better. We are already starting the process of awarding MVP awards for clan wars to each clan. That process seems to be pretty simple as it is usually pretty clear who the best player (in terms of win/loss, number of games, array of games, etc.) is from a certain war.

Anyway, the idea is in the system and we will just have to wait and see what happens. As you all know, I am but a secretary in the clan world with no real authority ;) Good lively discussion here, though.

Cheers,

Nick


So you have an "MVP Award" and a "Clan War MVP Award". Guess I'm confused, but from the sounds of what you said you're talking two separate awards?
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