[GP/UI] Add neutral starting values to maps in Browse Maps

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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:35 am

chapcrap wrote:
qwert wrote:Best option its that you play no fog games, print screen saver,and you will have map with all neutrals. Ofcourse these its only work for pelo war map, and with feudal war, and few other maps with starting neutrals. But these its so little number of maps, that i dont see realy why are these so importan do implement.

No way that is the best option. That's not a very good option for everyone to have to do.

I think you are confused about what is wanted here. What is being suggestion is a picture of what the values would be in a game that is started. There are only a few maps where a territory has a different number of troops on it if it starts neutral vs if a player holds it.


Chapcrap...maps of later period, i don't know when it started, usually are required by the foundry mods to have a map of neutrals posted in the front page of the map thread. This is part of the xml checking procedure. In that sense what you require is already implemented to a degree. However, it just hasan't been broadcast to everyone, and thus of course these players above don't know it exists. What is really needed is a link in the map screen to the map thread front page.
I would approach tnb80 if i were you, to determine if it is feasible to have all maps show starting neutrals on a map on the front page for all the earlier maps. Quite a project for someone.
I also, for maps like Pot Mosbi, Jamaica and Spanish Armada, put the starting positions map on the front page, as this also helps with the xml check.

I dont' think it is in the best interest of the mapmaker to have to put a list on each map of all starting neutrals. We already have enough challenges with legend instructions etc to fit everything into a map that is required for players to get a grip. Sadly, a lot of players don't even bother to read that.

The best solution would be to code the underlying neutral values into the xml engine code that shows on the map playing screen.

Merry Xmas :)
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:18 am

cairnswk wrote: i don't know when it started,

This was started by natty last year when he was checking them. So it only has around 15-20 that have it.

This like a lot of map projects is going to be huge.

Maps are not easy things to look at and the xml is even harder. Starting neutrals can change depending on the amount of players (Rorke's Drift, Dustbowl). So which map would the site display, all starting neutrals or neutrals for 1v1 games only? This would take a long time to implement just because of the amount of maps we have now and it is only going to get worse as the years go on.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby Jippd on Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:57 am

koontz1973 wrote:
cairnswk wrote: i don't know when it started,

This was started by natty last year when he was checking them. So it only has around 15-20 that have it.

This like a lot of map projects is going to be huge.

Maps are not easy things to look at and the xml is even harder. Starting neutrals can change depending on the amount of players (Rorke's Drift, Dustbowl). So which map would the site display, all starting neutrals or neutrals for 1v1 games only? This would take a long time to implement just because of the amount of maps we have now and it is only going to get worse as the years go on.


A solution could be that you include the neutral values when they are set.

If it is a neutral value that changes based on the number of players represent it by a white question mark.

Is it hard to save an image of the map and just overlay neutral numbers in a picture editing program? Also if you think about all the maps that don't have neutral starts I don't think this project is that big?
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby Qwert on Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:17 am

chapcrap wrote:
qwert wrote:Best option its that you play no fog games, print screen saver,and you will have map with all neutrals. Ofcourse these its only work for pelo war map, and with feudal war, and few other maps with starting neutrals. But these its so little number of maps, that i dont see realy why are these so importan do implement.

No way that is the best option. That's not a very good option for everyone to have to do.

I think you are confused about what is wanted here. What is being suggestion is a picture of what the values would be in a game that is started. There are only a few maps where a territory has a different number of troops on it if it starts neutral vs if a player holds it.


So from your experience how many maps will be included in these ?

If you go in game finder- Classic,Africa,Australia, and other normal maps who dont have starting position, have neutral territory value of 3. Also these its in every game diferent(depend on how much player are in game).
Are these its sugestion to include in all maps,or in few maps?

More than once, I looked through the map foundry to find out how many neutrals I'd be facing if I made an attack in a foggy game. Unless you parse through the XML, this information most of the time is not there. Instead, I have to hope that there is a sunny game that hasn't progressed too far that I can find through Game Finder.

example- i play classic map-fog,, and how these will help me?
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:16 am

qwert wrote:So from your experience how many maps will be included in these ?

You are probably looking at every map made over the last 2/3 years having a neutral placed into them for the starting positions balance. But every map that has positions in may or may not have neutrals underlying the positions. The reason I stated the two I did is because I know these two have it. Most maps will only have a neutral coded in. But it is the work of having to look through all the xml to find them. It is not a matter of starting a game with 8 players and seeing where the neutrals are as the game engine may randomly give a couple of neutrals out depending on the number of territs a map has.

Here is the neutrals for Jakarta.
    2 player games - 13
    3 player games - 13 (no neutrals)
    4 player games - 9 (3 neutrals)
    5 player games - 7 (4 neutrals)
    6 player games - 6 (2 neutrals)
    7 player games - 5 (4 neutrals)
    8 player games - 4 (7 neutrals)
And none are coded in so this maps neutrals can be anywhere. It also randomly gives the neutrals out in all games. Here are the neutrals for Mag map.
    Budapest (3) Auto deploy +1
    Szepes (3)
    Sopron (3)
    Fiume (3) Auto deploy +1
    Bekes(1)
    Lika Krbava (1)
    Haromszek (1)
These will always start neutral and this is the info all map makers need to provide when making a map.

The two problems with this suggestions are:
The amount of work required to look through all xml to find all underlying neutrals and them make the images.
Neutrals can change depending on the maps game size.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby chapcrap on Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:14 am

Ok, cairns and qwert, I'm not sure you understand what is wanted.

When you are in game finder or looking at My Games page and click on a map, the image of the map comes up. We want the image that comes up to have the territories marked with how many troops are there to start with. It doesn't need to be different for each game situation. We're talking about showing something like this:

Click image to enlarge.
image


The only difference in that image and what is being requested here, is to have all positions shown as neutral and to show it for EVERY position.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:08 am

But what do you do chapcrap when that image is not correct as in the two examples I gave.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby chapcrap on Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:18 am

koontz1973 wrote:But what do you do chapcrap when that image is not correct as in the two examples I gave.

The starting values do not change in those maps. Whether or not the territories actually start neutral or not is irrelevant. So, the image for Dust Bowl would be the same no matter what. I think that Rorke's Drift would be the same as well, but I haven't been involved with the map enough to know for sure.

A map image that has every tert shown as starting neutral and what the value would be if that were the case.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby darth emperor on Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:30 am

chapcrap wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:But what do you do chapcrap when that image is not correct as in the two examples I gave.

The starting values do not change in those maps. Whether or not the territories actually start neutral or not is irrelevant. So, the image for Dust Bowl would be the same no matter what. I think that Rorke's Drift would be the same as well, but I haven't been involved with the map enough to know for sure.

A map image that has every tert shown as starting neutral and what the value would be if that were the case.

Yes, I think that the they have a mislead with the title name, because what we want is not the default neutral values, but the default values per se. So if you see that a region has 5 troops, and the image says 3 you can know that the opponent has put 2 armies there, while now if you don't know the map you can't be sure if that region starts with 5 troops or if they have put additional troops. So really it doesn't help only to know the neutral values, but all the values
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:54 am

OK, i understand now, but that image is still going to have be generated from the xml engine.
Maps are now having different divisors...so that rather than the normal 3, you'll get another number,
and the neutral placement may end up being different for each type of game played i.e. 1v1, as opposed to 4 player.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:58 am

Here is a list of maps that I believe that would need for this to happen on. But without checking all xmls, I cannot be sure. It is a long list but by no means undo able. And this is only the start. If you cancel out the first 50 maps as I do not think neutrals where available then, you still have 170 xmls to look though.

1982
Age Of Merchants
Age Of Realms 1: Might
Age Of Realms 2: Magic
Age Of Realms 3: Mayhem
All Your Base Are Belong To Us
Antarctica
Christmas
City Mogul
Clandemonium
Cuban Missile Crisis
Conquer Rome
Das Schloss
Dust Bowl
Feudal Epic
Feudal War
King's Court
Knights
Lunar War
Middle Ages
Oasis
Peloponnesian War
Rorke's Drift
Salem's Switch
Steamworks
Woodboro
WWII Poland
Baltic Crusades
Classic Cities: Pot Mosbi
King's Court II
Magyarország

cairnswk wrote:OK, i understand now, but that image is still going to have be generated from the xml engine.
Maps are now having different divisors...so that rather than the normal 3, you'll get another number.

cairns is right, many maps have different divisors and not one image type fits all will work.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby Qwert on Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:00 am

well then its better to have some voluntaire, who will copy maps,and add neutral value(in Photoshop), then open Specific Topic in Strategy forum,where everybody can see all 200 maps with neutral position. Its much easier and can be done much faster.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby chapcrap on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:41 am

MERGED a duplicate thread that I found.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby SirSebstar on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:08 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:OK, i understand now, but that image is still going to have be generated from the xml engine.
Maps are now having different divisors...so that rather than the normal 3, you'll get another number.

cairns is right, many maps have different divisors and not one image type fits all will work.


then people should be made aware of this, and mapmakers should include the various versions of their maps witheither a picture or a legend to see how the map looks like(in neutral)
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