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Postby yeti_c on Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:15 am

But is it not the case - that the person that goes first gets a huge advantage - from going first...

Also - in this case the person going after the zombies - has the chance to mop up a string of 1's too...

C.
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Postby Stoney229 on Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:34 pm

yeti_c wrote:But is it not the case - that the person that goes first gets a huge advantage - from going first...

Also - in this case the person going after the zombies - has the chance to mop up a string of 1's too...

C.

I'm not following. can you clarify?
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Postby InkL0sed on Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:48 pm

Stoney229 wrote:
yeti_c wrote:But is it not the case - that the person that goes first gets a huge advantage - from going first...

Also - in this case the person going after the zombies - has the chance to mop up a string of 1's too...

C.

I'm not following. can you clarify?


He's saying that once the zombies finish attacking, the players who go first can easily take their trail of 1's.
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Postby cicero on Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:31 pm

yeti_c wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:You could make breaking continents a tie-breaker before it does it alphabetically.


Actually I think it should break continents first... (Chances are the borders will have biggest anyways)

So the order should be

a) I shall break a whole continent (if more than one - continent with biggest bonus)
If no continent breaks available...
b) I shall attack the largest army...
If two equal armies
c) I shall attack the largest army on the territory with the highest alphabetical name...

C.

I have to disagree yeti.

I believe the order must be: b) then c). Only. (As included in my revised suggestion on page 5).

Adding a) and targeting players holding continents first is not a good extension because:

(i) This would tend to result in zombie attacks on the strongest players. This would tend to 'level out' any advantage in position that a skillful player has made for themselves. 'Levelling out' of games would tend to prolong them for no purpose. And by extending and levelling games this would increase the effect of luck on the final outcome. A bad thing.

(ii) Attacking continents is not consistent with the 'dim, predictable and hungry' motivation that is inherent to zombies.

(iii) It makes more subtle tactics for distracting the zombies more difficult if they are always distracted by continents.

Most significantly: (iv) This is a step towards AI. This extension would make the zombies 'better players'. It would make them more 'human'. This is not the intention of the suggestion. The suggestion is to add a gameplay option ... "Fog of War" has an effect on games, it does not win or lose them. It is just Fog. Extra cards aren't handed to weaker players to even up the game. Cards are just cards. The zombies should not oppose the stronger players. They should simply look for the next, and biggest, meal. Zombies are just zombies.

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Postby Rocketry on Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:38 pm

sounds well good
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Postby 4V4T4R on Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:55 pm

cicero wrote:
yeti_c wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:You could make breaking continents a tie-breaker before it does it alphabetically.


Actually I think it should break continents first... (Chances are the borders will have biggest anyways)

So the order should be

a) I shall break a whole continent (if more than one - continent with biggest bonus)
If no continent breaks available...
b) I shall attack the largest army...
If two equal armies
c) I shall attack the largest army on the territory with the highest alphabetical name...

C.

I have to disagree yeti.

I believe the order must be: b) then c). Only. (As included in my revised suggestion on page 5).

Adding a) and targeting players holding continents first is not a good extension because:

(i) This would tend to result in zombie attacks on the strongest players. This would tend to 'level out' any advantage in position that a skillful player has made for themselves. 'Levelling out' of games would tend to prolong them for no purpose. And by extending and levelling games this would increase the effect of luck on the final outcome. A bad thing.

(ii) Attacking continents is not consistent with the 'dim, predictable and hungry' motivation that is inherent to zombies.

(iii) It makes more subtle tactics for distracting the zombies more difficult if they are always distracted by continents.

Most significantly: (iv) This is a step towards AI. This extension would make the zombies 'better players'. It would make them more 'human'. This is not the intention of the suggestion. The suggestion is to add a gameplay option ... "Fog of War" has an effect on games, it does not win or lose them. It is just Fog. Extra cards aren't handed to weaker players to even up the game. Cards are just cards. The zombies should not oppose the stronger players. They should simply look for the next, and biggest, meal. Zombies are just zombies.

Cicero


I completely agree.
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Postby 4V4T4R on Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:56 pm

also, how about a poll?
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Postby Stoney229 on Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:02 pm

InkL0sed wrote:
Stoney229 wrote:
yeti_c wrote:But is it not the case - that the person that goes first gets a huge advantage - from going first...

Also - in this case the person going after the zombies - has the chance to mop up a string of 1's too...

C.

I'm not following. can you clarify?


He's saying that once the zombies finish attacking, the players who go first can easily take their trail of 1's.
Good point, except how often will there really be a trail of ones?
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Postby wcaclimbing on Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:24 pm

yeti_c wrote:But is it not the case - that the person that goes first gets a huge advantage - from going first...

Also - in this case the person going after the zombies - has the chance to mop up a string of 1's too...

C.


There would never be much of a "trail of 1s".
This is because as soon as they reach 4 armies, they would start attacking. Since they only ever reach 4 (unless they are already surrounded by neutrals and have no other place to go) they will use up their own armies rather quickly. If a zombie had perfect dice, there would usually only be a single 1, because advancing with 4 armies leaves 3 left, which the zombies wont use to attack.

EDIT: unless it was one of the larger armies, such as the 10s on Feudal and the 75 on Magic.
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Postby zimmah on Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:43 pm

lord voldemort wrote:
yeti_c wrote:
lord voldemort wrote:the only prob is alpabetically...im not keen on...like it could be abused this way


At least alphabetically people will know - and it wouldn't be abuse - it would be a tactic... if you do it correctly - you can unleash a devastating neutral army... if you do it wrong - or you get to close - you get yourself annihilated!!!

C.


nah im sayin gpeople with z in ther name will abuse it..


they mean in alphabetically order of territory names, not player names, however it would be good for me if they would look to the names instead :roll:

but what he ment is in alpabetic order of the territories, which can actually add a nice tactical twist.
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Postby 4V4T4R on Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:31 pm

wcaclimbing wrote:
yeti_c wrote:But is it not the case - that the person that goes first gets a huge advantage - from going first...

Also - in this case the person going after the zombies - has the chance to mop up a string of 1's too...

C.


There would never be much of a "trail of 1s".
This is because as soon as they reach 4 armies, they would start attacking. Since they only ever reach 4 (unless they are already surrounded by neutrals and have no other place to go) they will use up their own armies rather quickly. If a zombie had perfect dice, there would usually only be a single 1, because advancing with 4 armies leaves 3 left, which the zombies wont use to attack.

EDIT: unless it was one of the larger armies, such as the 10s on Feudal and the 75 on Magic.


true a single zombie terrt is not likely to leave much of a trail
however if the single territ is not taken over, it will spread exponentially
to adjacent territs, creating the potential for larger armies and more of a trail
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Postby Stoney229 on Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:27 pm

4V4T4R wrote:
wcaclimbing wrote:
yeti_c wrote:But is it not the case - that the person that goes first gets a huge advantage - from going first...

Also - in this case the person going after the zombies - has the chance to mop up a string of 1's too...

C.


There would never be much of a "trail of 1s".
This is because as soon as they reach 4 armies, they would start attacking. Since they only ever reach 4 (unless they are already surrounded by neutrals and have no other place to go) they will use up their own armies rather quickly. If a zombie had perfect dice, there would usually only be a single 1, because advancing with 4 armies leaves 3 left, which the zombies wont use to attack.

EDIT: unless it was one of the larger armies, such as the 10s on Feudal and the 75 on Magic.


true a single zombie terrt is not likely to leave much of a trail
however if the single territ is not taken over, it will spread exponentially
to adjacent territs, creating the potential for larger armies and more of a trail
I do not see how this would give a counteracting advantage to early players.
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Postby wcaclimbing on Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:36 pm

Maybe making this only available on freestyle games is one of the options to make it more balanced, so everyone gets a fair chance of going last.

Or, the zombies are set to play once per round, but you wont know WHEN they play. Like, in a sequential game, the zombie program will randomly select a time to play within that round. Sometimes first, others last, and some in the middle of the round. (same way in freestyle). Then everyone would have an equal chance of playing before/after a zombie, and it would also add a bit more to the unpredictable part of the zombies.
"will they attack now, or later?"
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Postby 4V4T4R on Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:58 pm

wcaclimbing wrote:Maybe making this only available on freestyle games is one of the options to make it more balanced, so everyone gets a fair chance of going last.

Or, the zombies are set to play once per round, but you wont know WHEN they play. Like, in a sequential game, the zombie program will randomly select a time to play within that round. Sometimes first, others last, and some in the middle of the round. (same way in freestyle). Then everyone would have an equal chance of playing before/after a zombie, and it would also add a bit more to the unpredictable part of the zombies.
"will they attack now, or later?"


an interesting idea, however people will complain that it is not "random"
so what if the zombie turn cycles? That is, the first round, they go last, the
second, next to last, the third, next to next to last, etc. Each round cycling one
turn ahead. This gives everyone a chance to go last before the zombies
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Postby wcaclimbing on Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:40 pm

4V4T4R wrote:
wcaclimbing wrote:Maybe making this only available on freestyle games is one of the options to make it more balanced, so everyone gets a fair chance of going last.

Or, the zombies are set to play once per round, but you wont know WHEN they play. Like, in a sequential game, the zombie program will randomly select a time to play within that round. Sometimes first, others last, and some in the middle of the round. (same way in freestyle). Then everyone would have an equal chance of playing before/after a zombie, and it would also add a bit more to the unpredictable part of the zombies.
"will they attack now, or later?"


an interesting idea, however people will complain that it is not "random"
so what if the zombie turn cycles? That is, the first round, they go last, the
second, next to last, the third, next to next to last, etc. Each round cycling one
turn ahead. This gives everyone a chance to go last before the zombies

yeah, but the first person still gets an advantage (disadvantage, depending on how you see it) by being safe for more of the time.

I think random would be the best way to go.
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Postby yeti_c on Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:20 am

I disagree - giving an advantage to the last player to play can only be a good thing - going first in many of the game types can often be a huge advantage.

C.
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Postby zimmah on Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:57 am

yeti_c wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:You could make breaking continents a tie-breaker before it does it alphabetically.


Actually I think it should break continents first... (Chances are the borders will have biggest anyways)

So the order should be

a) I shall break a whole continent (if more than one - continent with biggest bonus)
If no continent breaks available... or two equal continents
b) I shall attack the largest army...
If two equal armies
c) I shall attack the largest army on the territory with the highest alphabetical name...

C.


:wink:
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Postby yeti_c on Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:05 am

zimmah wrote:
yeti_c wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:You could make breaking continents a tie-breaker before it does it alphabetically.


Actually I think it should break continents first... (Chances are the borders will have biggest anyways)

So the order should be

a) I shall break a whole continent (if more than one - continent with biggest bonus)
If no continent breaks available... or two equal continents
b) I shall attack the largest army...
If two equal armies
c) I shall attack the largest army on the territory with the highest alphabetical name...

C.


:wink:


Mostly covered by... (if more than one - continent with biggest bonus)

C.
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Postby zimmah on Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:26 pm

yeti_c wrote:
Mostly covered by... (if more than one - continent with biggest bonus)

C.


not really, if you would script it exactly like you stated above, it will most likely give errors, since you do not state exactly what will happen if there are continents, but none of them is the biggest, will cause the script to malfunction or not function correctly :roll:

anyways like has been said before, it doesn't matter a lot since it would be better if the zombies would first check which territory has the most armies and then check which one of them gives the highest bonus, if any., then the coding will be like this:

if 'number of armies >=4' attack 'highest territory adjacent to it'
if 2 or more territories are equal(only count the highest) 'attack the one which creates the highest bonus' (potential food capacity) (or most territories inside a continent, for example..)
if equal(and highest, of course), start attacking alphabetically
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Postby cicero on Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:33 pm

zimmah wrote:
yeti_c wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:You could make breaking continents a tie-breaker before it does it alphabetically.


Actually I think it should break continents first... (Chances are the borders will have biggest anyways)

So the order should be

a) I shall break a whole continent (if more than one - continent with biggest bonus)
If no continent breaks available... or two equal continents
b) I shall attack the largest army...
If two equal armies
c) I shall attack the largest army on the territory with the highest alphabetical name...

C.


:wink:

I'm tempted just to repost my previous rebuttal to this suggestion which I made back towards the top of page 8. I quote it below for convenience.

I think my rebuttal is fairly thorough. And my opinion hasn't changed :).
But I note that several posters support yeti's variation.

Can anyone post an argument explaining why adding [either of the versions of] a) is a good idea and specifically what this adds to the zombie behaviour to make for an even more enjoyable game?

Cicero

cicero wrote:I have to disagree yeti.

I believe the order must be: b) then c). Only. (As included in my revised suggestion on page 5).

Adding a) and targeting players holding continents first is not a good extension because:

(i) This would tend to result in zombie attacks on the strongest players. This would tend to 'level out' any advantage in position that a skillful player has made for themselves. 'Levelling out' of games would tend to prolong them for no purpose. And by extending and levelling games this would increase the effect of luck on the final outcome. A bad thing.

(ii) Attacking continents is not consistent with the 'dim, predictable and hungry' motivation that is inherent to zombies.

(iii) It makes more subtle tactics for distracting the zombies more difficult if they are always distracted by continents.

Most significantly: (iv) This is a step towards AI. This extension would make the zombies 'better players'. It would make them more 'human'. This is not the intention of the suggestion. The suggestion is to add a gameplay option ... "Fog of War" has an effect on games, it does not win or lose them. It is just Fog. Extra cards aren't handed to weaker players to even up the game. Cards are just cards. The zombies should not oppose the stronger players. They should simply look for the next, and biggest, meal. Zombies are just zombies.
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Postby RobinJ on Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:03 pm

I'll leave it at this: great idea! :D
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Postby herndawg on Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:11 pm

This idea is great,
I think the zombies should attack the weakest armies. Whenever I get chased by zombies they always catch the slower weaker ones behind me first. That would motivate deploying onto other places to avoid them attacking you and you could lead them where you want with ones.

I didn't read ALLLLLLL the responses so if someone said this already then call me poo
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Postby Twill on Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:39 pm

OK, I didn't make it all the way through the thread but is seems the biggest issue is this tie-breaker for equally large neighbours.

==1==
What if you went with the rebel analogy and had it based on the most number of neutral territories taken by each player...i.e. revenge killings.

Bob has taken 3 neutral territories
John too 4 neutral territories
Bob and John both have 5 armies neighbouring a neutral
Neutral attacks john.

Problems: What if nobody has taken any neutrals.

==2==
Base it on total number of armies on the board - who is the biggest threat in the grander scheme.


==3==
It attacks everyone - Wait until there are 5 armies on the territory, attack bob with 2 and john with 2, have 1 left over. Or Bob with 1, John with 1, sarah with 1 and jane with 1. etc etc.

With a fan method they would circle out from a central point, and set up a perimeter - say someone Deadbeats with 10 armies and 2 bordering territs.
Each one gets 4 armies attacking it (leaving the extra "remainder" 1 in the original territory)
Territ 1 is taken with no loses (4 advance) Territ 2 is taken with 1 loss (3 advance) Original territ is left with 2 defenders (the mandatory 1 and the "remainder")
Because territ 1 has 4, it continues it's attack:
Territ 3 gets 1 attacker, territ 4 gets 1 attacker, 1 left as mandatory, 1 left as a remainder.

It's methodical, predictable, equal and, I think, easy to code.




Now, other issues I have are that it's too simple a calculation - You can not deter an attack - it WILL come.

I think I mentioned earlier (it may have been shot down, I don't know, didn't check) that you have a simple calculation:

If the defending army is x% bigger or smaller then I attack, if we are evenly matched I dont.
One would be a desperation attack (x% bigger) and one would be an "easy pickings" attack.

It would negate the possibility of you being screwed by a deadbeat who you had a stable border with at 10:10 each, but now that there is a zombie there, it's going to nuke you and leave you very exposed (rather than very defended)
If you have the % requirements, then you can still defend against that one border, they are still a threat (because they are going to keep building 1 per turn until they can kick your ass) but they will not instantly attack you and leave you fully exposed.

I'm only talking 25% over 25% under so it's easy to calculate and explain.

i.e. 13 neutrals would attack 10 or less
3 neutrals would attack 10 or more (once they get over the 4 threshold)

4 neutrals would attack 3 or less or 5 or more but not attack 4.

Those are my 2 thoughts.
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Postby wcaclimbing on Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:01 pm

sounds good, Twill.
I like it.

EDIT: the third problem, besides the two you mentioned, would be to decide WHEN the zombies will make their attacks. Cause going at a set time would give some people an advantage, playing right before or right after a zombie.
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Postby the_fatty on Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:22 pm

is this gonna happen? i like the idea a lot.
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