[XML] infected neutrals

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Re: infected neutrals - FINAL PROPOSAL: page 22 [To-Do]

Postby BBoz on Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:51 pm

shanksdigs wrote:Only suggestion against your functions is the alphabetical choice" attack. This might make players come back to choose names like "zzzzzJim" so they are least likely to get attacked by the zombie.
Don't worry this was never actually the idea; it was that the Infected Neutrals choose alphabetically by Territory Name but this has been superceded. See the FINAL PROPOSAL on page 22 for details.


What happens in a situation where two territories have the same number of large armies. Say like 2 next to Zombies that each have 20 armies. Which is chosen? The same would apply in a situation where the Zombies are surrounded by all 1's. Would it be random? Territory Name Alpha?
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Re: infected neutrals - FINAL PROPOSAL: page 22 [To-Do]

Postby BBoz on Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:21 pm

Looking again, it looks like in the Pseudo Code it would be alphabetical by territory name after army size. Just need to add that to the description for players.
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Re: infected neutrals - FINAL PROPOSAL: page 22 [To-Do]

Postby Thomassaurus on Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:39 pm

frankiebee wrote:How crazy would this be on maps like Feudal War or AoR :D



That would be impossible. If it was +1 on every neutral.
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Re: FINAL PROPOSAL

Postby iamkoolerthanu on Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:31 pm

cicero wrote:Such a territory will attack its largest neighbour(s) and continue until battle is won or the attacking territory has less than 4 armies remaining.


2 questions.
1. Would the defeated territory then become neutral?
And 2. If an infected neutral with 8 armies is bordering 2 territories, one with 5 armies, and one with 6 armies. It would attack the 6 armies, but if it won 2 dice, and that was brought to 4 armies (making one bordering country have 5 while the other has 4), would the infected neutral attack the 5 now? Or would it 'press auto-attack' against the 6 in the beginning?
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Zombies (reply to infected neutrals idea)

Postby Thomassaurus on Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:17 pm

This is a reply to the Neutral Zombies idea viewtopic.php?f=4&t=40294 But since its over 30 pages and this is pritty much a completely new idea I made a new post.

I like the neutral zombie idea but I can see problems with it.
The maps weren't made for the neutrals to attack the players, it would be completely changing the roles of the neutrals and would result in unbalanced gameplay.

Concise description:
Insted of the zombies being neutrals they could be dead people left over from battles.
(hence zombies are dead people and battles bring dead people)
After any big battle say over 6 troops were killed, and you dont leave a good amount of troops on that territory zombies can break out, more zombies depending on the amount of troops that were killed.

Specifics:
Zombies will break out new zombies and/or take there turn at the end of each round.
If they break out they will break out on territory(s) that had lots of killing daring that round. They get +1 on every territory owned by zombies. They will spread out and go after different players. When they attack even if the dont completely take out the attacked territory if there was enough death that territory can be taking over by zombies the next zombie turn.

If you attack a zombie territory and fail you will just make them stronger by given them more dead people. the next zombie turn the zombies you killed will come back to life and any other dead people you gave them will become zombies.
Even if you killed them all if you dont leave a good amount of troops on that territory they could just come back bigger and badder.

This will improve the following aspects of the site:
A new game type I'm sure lots of players will enjoy. See how much support the zombie neutrals idea had.
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Re: infected neutrals - FINAL PROPOSAL: page 22 [To-Do]

Postby Thomassaurus on Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:29 pm

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Re: Zombies (reply to infected neutrals idea)

Postby taco_man1 on Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:08 pm

why are you trying to drastically change an idea that has already been vetted by 30 pages of discussion?
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Re: Zombies (reply to infected neutrals idea)

Postby Blinkadyblink on Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:43 am

Games with a lot of armies tend to take a long time anyway, and I think that this would just add another disincentive for people to attack (even if you win, the territory could be taken back by zombies next turn, and then you'll be a really easy target for another player.)
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Re: infected neutrals - FINAL PROPOSAL: page 22 [To-Do]

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Mon May 17, 2010 8:34 pm

Bump for the mods. This one has been around for a while and I know has many people waiting for it to be implemented.
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Re: infected neutrals - FINAL PROPOSAL: page 22 [To-Do]

Postby pmchugh on Mon May 17, 2010 8:39 pm

I agree great suggestion.

Also great job by the admins cleaning up this forum, it seems you got that all important "Mods pay attention" vibe, though of course I doubt any of it will be implemented any faster :lol:
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Re: infected neutrals - FINAL PROPOSAL: page 22 [To-Do]

Postby TheForgivenOne on Mon May 17, 2010 10:44 pm

Gonna sticky this
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Re: infected neutrals - FINAL PROPOSAL: page 22 [To-Do]

Postby Queen_Herpes on Mon May 17, 2010 10:50 pm

TheForgivenOne wrote:Gonna sticky this


TFO, Can you merge this with the other zombie and attacking neutrals sugs?
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=102006

This link is the best way to make new players feel welcome...

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=102006
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Re: infected neutrals [Last Call ~ TFO]

Postby TheForgivenOne on Tue May 18, 2010 12:47 am

Merged 2 threads... Thought there were more. If you find any, please point them out to me
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Re: infected neutrals [Last Call ~ TFO]

Postby 00iCon on Tue May 18, 2010 8:35 am

OH MY GOD!
i don't think anyone's noticed, but killer neutrals; will they reset?
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Re: infected neutrals [Last Call ~ TFO]

Postby drunkmonkey on Tue May 18, 2010 8:47 am

I like the idea, but are we sold on the "alphabetical" order of zombie attacks? What if they attacked the territory with the most troops, with ABC order being the tiebreaker? This would force people to deal with the zombie threat, rather than moving their main force to Zimbabwe until the next turn.
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Re: infected neutrals [Last Call ~ TFO]

Postby JoshyBoy on Tue May 18, 2010 9:11 am

Ok, this sounds like a good idea, what's the final proposal?
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Re: infected neutrals [Last Call ~ TFO]

Postby TheForgivenOne on Tue May 18, 2010 9:26 am

The last thing they had was what is on the first post. Don't know if people want anything different or not
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Re: FINAL PROPOSAL

Postby JoshyBoy on Tue May 18, 2010 9:53 am

cicero wrote:final proposal
The details of this suggestion are now finalised as far as regular forum discussion is concerned. Please do not post further suggestions for change.
I have drawn this post to the attention of the site owners/moderators [specifically Lack & Twill].
I would prefer that we, as community members, await their 'official' feedback/criticism before making any significant edits to this proposal.

Having said that if those of you who fully understand the suggestion aims find errors/omissions/ambiguities in this post then please do post accordingly. Please quote concisely from the proposal to make the thread easy to follow.
__________

Back Story/Motivation
The neutrals have been infected by an unknown virus. This affects their behaviour making them irrationally, unreasonably aggressive, but predictably so. They attack any un-infected armies without thought for their own safety and with no real goal in mind. Whether they still have a mind is open to debate.
They always attack the largest uninfected armies on their borders and continue the battle until they destroy their enemies or sustain such casualties that they cannot continue. There is no antidote.
__________

Suggestion Idea:
Additional game type option:
Infected Neutrals : Yes | No

Specifics
With Infected Neutrals set to No game play is as now.
With Infected Neutrals set to Yes game play is as follows:
  • Any neutral armies on the map when the game is initialised are infected and are active.
  • Any neutral armies introduced to the game by deadbeats, bombardments or killer territories are infected and incubate for one full game round before becoming active.
  • Active neutrals always attack if capable. Incubating neutrals do not attack.
  • With colour codes added active neutrals are identified by a preceding 'a' and incubating neutrals are identified by a preceding 'i'. These replace the usual 'n'.
  • The infected neutral turn occurs immediately after the end of each game round before the start of the next game round.
  • Game Log reports of infected neutral activity are affected by Fog of War in the same way as reports of player activity.
  • The infected neutral turn progresses according to the pseudo code below.
__________

Code: Select all
// DEPLOY phase
// add one army to each ACTIVE infected neutral territory
For Each active infected neutral territory
   add one army to territory
   write to game log : "infected neutrals get 1 army added to <territory name>"
Next
// Infected neutrals do not receive ANY other bonuses of any kind, positive or negative.
Motivation/Gameplay Note: This makes sense since infected neutrals cannot benefit from the political structure of a continent. Equally they are not affected by factors such as frostbite on "Age of Realms" or drought on Dustbowl since they disregard their senses.
Code: Select all
// ATTACK phase
// All ACTIVE infected neutral territories with 4 or more armies and with non-neutral neighbours are capable of making an attack
// NB bombardment attacks are not allowed
Motivation/Gameplay Note: This makes sense since infected neutrals cannot operate bombardment technology. Also it would give infected neutrals an unfair advantage since they would effectively be able to advance along bombardment lines which players cannot.
Code: Select all
FutureOffset = current system time // timestamp offset to be used to allow players to watch infected neutral turns in real time
NumAttTerr = number of territories capable of making an attack // calculate how many territories can attack
While NumAttTerr > 0 and FutureOffset < turn end time // as long as there's a territory that can attack, and not out of time, ATTACK !!
   // the following two lines must be INSIDE the While loop since the territories capable of attacking may have changed since the last iteration
   arrange the qualifying territories in an array AttTerrs() // indexed 0, 1, 2 etc
   sort the AttTerrs() array by "number of armies on territory (high to low)" then (where this is indecisive) by "(number of armies on territory -3) MOD number of AttTerrs with same number of armies (low to high)" // the reason for the "-3" here is purely for consistency with the "AttackForce" used below
   AttTerrInd = 0 // set the attacking territory index to zero; to point to the first attacking territory

   // select TARGET player territory(s)
   // This logic addresses both a single target territory and multiple target territories
   // The attacking territory will attack the bordering territory(s) which contain the most armies
   // [Remember that bombardment attacks are not allowed]
   arrange the qualifying territory(s) in an array Targets() // indexed 0, 1, 2 etc.
   sort the Targets() array by "alphabetical order (a to z)"
   NumTargs = the number of territories in the array Targets()
   AttackForce = initial number of attacking neutral armies - 3
   TargCount = 1 // set the target count to one; to indicate the first of the NumTargs targets

   While TargCount<=NumTargs // attack each of the targets in turn
      TargInd = (AttackForce + TargCount - 1) MOD NumTargs // set the target territory index; to point to the TargCount target

      Repeat
         attack Targets(TargInd) // attack the target territory
      Until the attacking territory has <= (3 + (NumTargs-TargCount)*INT(AttackForce/NumTargs)) armies or the battle is won
      If the battle is won Then
         If TargCount = NumTargs Then // ie neutrals are attacking the last target territory
            advance (all remaining - 1) armies
         Else
            advance (all remaining - (3 + (NumTargs-TargCount)*INT(AttackForce/NumTargs))) armies
         write to game log using FutureOffset as timestamp : "infected neutral player attacked <territory name> from <territory name> and conquered it from <player name>"
      FutureOffset = FutureOffset + 5 seconds // to allow players to watch the turn in real time
      TargCount = TargCount + 1
   End While
   
   NumAttTerr = number of territories capable of making an attack // recalculate
End While
If FutureOffset >= turn end time
   write to game log using FutureOffset as timestamp : "infected neutral player ran out of time"

// END phase
// Consider all INCUBATING neutrals
For Each incubating neutral territory
   If incubating neutral territory was infected in the preceding game round Then
      write to game log : "infected neutral territory <territory name> incubating"
   Else
      incubating neutral territory becomes active neutral territory
      write to game log : "incubating neutral territory <territory name> now active"
Next

// Note that regardless of game settings infected neutrals make NO fortifications.
// Note that regardless of game settings infected neutrals receive NO cards.
__________

The player who wins gains no points for beating the infected neutrals any more than they do now for winning a game containing neutral players or eliminating neutral players.

It will be seen that infected neutrals cannot win any games and so the question of points lost does not arise*. This firmly positions the infected neutrals as a gameplay feature and not an AI player.
__________

Documentation
This suggestion relies on the predictability of the Infected Neutrals for it's effectiveness. Players will need to understand this predictability to incorporate the Infected Neutral behaviour into their strategy. Whilst the pseudo code above does describe the behaviour accurately it does not present it as simply as will be necessary for the community as a whole.

The "Instructions > Game Options" tab to be updated to include the following just after the Fog of War section:
Infected Neutrals

Infected neutrals play their turn immediately after the end of each game round before the start of the next game round in both sequential and freestyle games.

Any neutral armies on the map when the game is initialised are infected and are active. Any neutral armies introduced to the game by deadbeats, bombardments or killer territories are infected and incubate for one full game round before becoming active. Active neutral territories are capable of attack if they have 4 or more armies and at at least one non-neutral neighbour. Incubating neutrals do not attack. [With colour codes added active neutrals are identified by a preceding 'a' and incubating neutrals are identified by a preceding 'i'.]

At the start of their turn infected neutrals receive one additional army on every territory held. They receive no other bonuses, positive or negative, of any kind. Infected neutrals will always attack from each of their capable territories in turn attacking from the territory with the largest number of armies first. Such a territory will attack its largest neighbour(s) and continue until battle is won or the attacking territory has less than 4 armies remaining. Infected neutrals end their turn when there are no neutral territories capable of attack or they run out of time. Regardless of game settings infected neutrals do not make fortifications and do not receive a card.

Ordinary neutrals do not have a turn, receive no armies at any time and are entirely passive. [With colour codes added ordinary neutrals are identified by a preceding 'n'.]

Further, to avoid overwhelming the "Game Options" tab page, a more detailed post describing Infected Neutral behaviour to be posted in "General Discussion > Q&A" when Infected Neutrals are implemented. This post will then form the basis of a thread for any clarifying questions about how the Infected Neutral option works.

cicero, in Q&A on Infected Neutral implementation date, wrote:Infected Neutrals

UNDER CONSTRUCTION ;)


__________

Why it is needed
It would introduce interesting new ways of playing and tactics ...
  • Neutral territories are no longer handy defences, but are actively dangerous!
  • A deadbeating player does not benignly lapse, but the neutral armies produced by a deadbeat (in non terminator games) become infected and attack! Perhaps you won't ignore the player who looks like he might deadbeat after all.
  • Even if there are no infected neutrals in the game to start with (because of the map/player numbers combination) some may be introduced by a deadbeat or, in maps including the option, by a successful bombardment or a "killer" territory (no maps yet exist with killer territories) ...
  • When considering an attack on another player the fact there are "infected neutrals behind him" needs to be taken into account ...
  • You may actually decide to deploy/fortify your armies away from infected neutrals since this may make them attack elsewhere ...
  • Several players have asked for AI over time and, rightly, this has been rejected since this is a player/community based site. However the infected neutrals would introduce some positive elements of AI players (though 'intelligence' is stretching it a bit).
  • Imagine a 1v1 (where 1/3 of territories are automatically neutral) ...
  • Imagine a growing infected horde (which cannot auto attack since it is surrounded on all sides by other infected neutrals) ... that you deliberately release knowing, because of their predictable behaviour, that the infected neutrals will attack your opponents ...
  • Map designers could take into account infected neutral behaviour when designing maps ...
  • In heavily infested situations human players will have to cooperate to eliminate infected neutrals first ...
  • In extremely heavily infested situations human players may not, even with co-operation, be able to eliminate the neutrals ... in which case the player able to survive longest will win.
  • Assassin games ... "someone kill the infected neutrals before they give the game to .. oh shit - too late!!"
__________

* Infected neutrals can't win or gain points ...
It is important to note that existing rules do not consider neutral armies as a player and hence the neutral armies cannot win. Hence from existing rules:

standard game
If at any time there is only one player left that player wins.
(whether the player holds 99% of the territories or a single territory)

assassin game
If at any time one player is eliminated (by whoever) the player whose target that was wins.

terminator game
If at any time a player is eliminated by the infected neutrals then the points are awarded to the last surviving player at the end of the game (as per the rules to cover deadbeats).
__________

Footnotes
1 References to 'alphabetical order' mean ASCII order (and refer to the names of the territories). Hence numbers come before letters etc.

Implementation of this would possibly be more straightforward and processing/server efficient as 'XML order'. To facilitate XML=alphabetical order it would be necessary to revise XML for all maps to ensure the [borders] sections presented the borders in strict ASCII order.


I believe this guy's idea should be the final proposal. It's only taken 3 years cicero, but perseverance might just pay off here.

Cheers, JB ;)
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Re: infected neutrals [Last Call ~ TFO]

Postby TheForgivenOne on Tue May 18, 2010 2:57 pm

thanks josh, thought he updated the first post to the one they directed me to. My bad
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Re: infected neutrals [Last Call ~ TFO]

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Tue May 18, 2010 8:31 pm

drunkmonkey wrote:I like the idea, but are we sold on the "alphabetical" order of zombie attacks? What if they attacked the territory with the most troops, with ABC order being the tiebreaker? This would force people to deal with the zombie threat, rather than moving their main force to Zimbabwe until the next turn.


I believe that's the suggestion. The infected neutrals will attack the largest army next to them until they can't any longer. The tiebreaker being alphabetical.

I am definitely for this feature to be implemented and given it's been around for at least 2 years, I think all of the discussion necessary has been done already.
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Re: infected neutrals [Last Call ~ TFO]

Postby TheForgivenOne on Tue May 18, 2010 8:47 pm

Alright, We will leave this one on Last Call for about a week, just like i did with Adjacent Attacks, and if continued support is shown, and no other suggestions are made, we will put it in Suggested Suggestions.
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Re: infected neutrals [Last Call ~ TFO]

Postby drunkmonkey on Tue May 18, 2010 11:58 pm

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
drunkmonkey wrote:I like the idea, but are we sold on the "alphabetical" order of zombie attacks? What if they attacked the territory with the most troops, with ABC order being the tiebreaker? This would force people to deal with the zombie threat, rather than moving their main force to Zimbabwe until the next turn.


I believe that's the suggestion. The infected neutrals will attack the largest army next to them until they can't any longer. The tiebreaker being alphabetical.

I am definitely for this feature to be implemented and given it's been around for at least 2 years, I think all of the discussion necessary has been done already.


I was commenting on the first post, before JoshyBoy bumped the "Final Proposal". This post has exactly what I was thinking about.
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Re: infected neutrals [Last Call ~ TFO]

Postby JoshyBoy on Wed May 19, 2010 5:13 am

Anyone heard from cicero? It's his idea so it's probably best if we double check all the details with him before submitting.

Cheers, JB ;)
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Re: infected neutrals [Last Call ~ TFO]

Postby firsal901 on Wed May 19, 2010 6:23 am

i like it but it may offset long held winning strategys that
they teach at the SoC

it may help more experienced players but
may backlash plans of a new recruit

also a 1vs. zombies can be quite helpful
maybe in a setting called training
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Re: infected neutrals [Last Call ~ TFO]

Postby TheForgivenOne on Wed May 19, 2010 7:16 am

This option may not be open to New Recruits.
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