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Postby Rogue42 on Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:31 pm

There was an old boardgame that used this idea. It was a game with Hero's and magic. But the zombies were Orc's. They added a new dimension to the game. The orcs could be ignored but if they got over a certain number they would frenzy and attack any territ touching them. Each turn all orcs would get one per territ as reinforcements.

It added a great element to game play. All players had to work together to keep them in check while still trying to take over the rest of the players. We had a few that ended up with orcs taking over but not very many.

I would love to see it added as an option.
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Postby yeti_c on Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:32 pm

TBH - I'd be more worried about the extra brace on the first line.

C.

PS - In Java you can have a tristate boolean... called a Boolean.

It can be true false or null.
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Postby yeti_c on Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:33 pm

Rogue42 wrote:There was an old boardgame that used this idea. It was a game with Hero's and magic. But the zombies were Orc's. They added a new dimension to the game. The orcs could be ignored but if they got over a certain number they would frenzy and attack any territ touching them. Each turn all orcs would get one per territ as reinforcements.

It added a great element to game play. All players had to work together to keep them in check while still trying to take over the rest of the players. We had a few that ended up with orcs taking over but not very many.

I would love to see it added as an option.


Heroquest?

If so - actually 1 person played as the dungeon master... whilst (upto) 4 people battled against them... THe Dungeon Master could also win the game.

C.
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Postby Coleman on Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:50 pm

yeti_c wrote:TBH - I'd be more worried about the extra brace on the first line.

C.

PS - In Java you can have a tristate boolean... called a Boolean.

It can be true false or null.
It isn't real code. :roll: It's the rough logic.
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Postby cicero on Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:13 am

DiM wrote:AoR magic with zombie mode on would be a battle for survival. killing others won't matter surviving the longest will be the idea.

which come to think of it would be something really really nice.
I missed the significance of this when I first read it.

DiM points out that on maps where (whether as designed by the mapmakers or as the result of deadbeating) there are overwhelming numbers of zombies the gameplay will change. Rather than one player dominating the map by conquering the other players and any zombies until the player wins, it will be a matter of the zombies dominating the map - taking out the players one by one until there is only one player left ... at which point that one player will win! By default. Beautiful.

And hence there will never be a question of the zombies winning any games or any points.

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Postby cicero on Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:55 am

A couple of quotes from earlier responses in the thread. [Slightly edited for brevity and underlined for emphasis.]
Twill wrote:... there are other systems this could be based on other than territory names or randomly. For example, it could be based on who holds the most territories, who has killed the most natives (revenge is sweet), path of least resistance, path of most resistance, closest target (map makers would have to take this into account in their designs) ...

I think alphabetical territories is a mistake because in some maps (because this feature hasn't been designed for) the computer would always go one way. Always. For example, in midkemia, Qwan starts with 6 neutrals, it would always attack earennial, which would suck to start there, kind of like alcatraz in LA. - it's just too simple of a system and will get boring after a while, there needs to be uniqueness if not randomness. if you have a classic map, and neutrals end up in kamchatka, they will always attack Alaska, Alberta, Northwest Territories, Greenland, Iceland, Great Britain, n. Europe, s. Europe, Egypt, Congo etc etc etc. no matter what the opposition looks like - it's like a one player suiciding in a 3 person stand off - someone always gains and someone always loses, and nobody likes being on the losing side and nobody can control it ...
Lone.prophet wrote:if it is alphabetical than it has do do with the luck where you start

maybe make it attack the weakest/strongest territory it can first than if they are the same alphabetical maybe
You're right.
Despite me subsequently arguing otherwise in the thread ;).
I'm now convinced that pure alphabetical selection changes neutral territories from minor random advantage (as they are in their current benign state) to more significant random disadvantage (as neutral zombies) - dictated by your initial relative position . See my next post for a revised version of the suggestion taking your thoughts into account.

mitchmitch11 wrote:ok, I like the idea but I say we keep to risk and not bring in aliens or zombies or fictional caracters. Why dont we just call them rebels or outlaws or something like that. I would prefer that a lot more than zombies or aliens. But that is just me.
mitchmitch summarises the point made by several others. We all have a preference for just what to call this gameplay effect. Personally I still believe zombies are where it's at [see George Romero's zombie films, Simon Pegg's "Shaun of the Dead" and Max Brooks' "World War Z"], but ultimately it's a subjective thing. I suggest that for the immediate future we discuss the gameplay mechanics and if, "praise the lord/lack", the idea is marked to be implemented we can then debate the naming.

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Postby cicero on Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:07 am

REVISED Suggestion Idea:
Additional game type option:
Neutral Zombies : Yes | No

Specifics:
With Neutral Zombies set to No game play is as now.
With Neutral Zombies set to Yes game play is as follows:

- Any neutral armies on the map are zombies.
- The zombies automatically take their turn last in the game round.
- At the start of the zombies' turn one army is added to every territory held.
- Zombies do not earn any bonuses.
- All zombie territories with 4 or more armies auto-attack a non-zombie neighbour* until they win the battle or have 3 or less armies. If they win the battle they advance all possible armies. If they have no non-zombie neighbours then they cannot attack (just as for normal players).
- The zombies continue their turn until they cannot attack further as defined by these rules.

* Zombies are dim, predictable and unappeasably hungry. An attacking zombie army will always attack the neighbour containing most armies (food). If more than one neighbour contains the same, highest number of armies the target is decided by which comes first alphabetically by territory name. (Similarly if more than one zombie territory is capable of making an attack then the order is decided alphabetically.)

The player who wins gains no points for beating the zombies any more than they do now for eliminating neutral players.

It will be seen that zombies cannot win any games and so the question of points lost does not arise **. This firmly positions the zombies as a gameplay feature and not an AI player.

Why it is needed:
It would introduce interesting new ways of playing and tactics ...
  • Neutral territories are no longer handy defences, but are actively dangerous!
  • A deadbeating player actually dies and his armies come back as zombies! Perhaps you won't ignore the player who looks like he might deadbeat after all.
  • Even if there are no zombies in the game to start with (because of the map/player numbers combination) some may be introduced by a deadbeat or, in maps including the option, by a successful bombardment or a "killer" territory (no maps yet exist with killer territories) ...
  • When considering an attack on another player the fact there are "zombies behind him" needs to be taken into account ...
  • You may actually decide to deploy/fortify your armies away from zombies since this will make the hungry zombies turn elsewhere ...
  • Several players have asked for AI over time and, rightly, this has been rejected since this is a player/community based site. However the zombies would introduce some positive elements of AI players (though 'intelligence' is stretching it a bit).
  • Imagine a 1v1 (where 1/3 of territories are automatically neutral) ...
  • Imagine a growing zombie horde (it cannot auto attack since it is surrounded on all sides by other zombies) ... which you deliberately release knowing, because of their predictable behaviour, that the zombies will attack your opponents ...
  • Map designers could take into account zombie behaviour when designing maps ...
  • In heavily infested situations human players will have to cooperate to eliminate the zombies first ...
  • In extremely heavily infested situations human players may not, even with co-operation, be able to eliminate the zombies ... in which case the player able to survive longest will win.
  • Assassin games ... "someone shoot those zombies before they give the game to .. oh shit - too late!!"

** Zombies can't win or gain points ..
It is important to note that existing rules do not consider neutral armies as a player and hence the neutral armies cannot win. Under existing rules:

standard game
If at any time there is only one player left that player wins.
(whether the player holds 99% of the territories or 1)

assassin game
If at any time one player is eliminated (by whoever) the player whose target that was wins.

terminator game
If at any time a player is eliminated by the zombies then the points are awarded to the player who last took a territory from the eliminated player (as per the rules to cover deadbeats). If no player had previously taken a territory from the eliminated player the points are awarded to the last surviving player at the end of the game (again as per the rules to cover deadbeats).

Any other scenarios which need to be covered in this section let me know (by PM preferably) and I'll update.

Cicero
Last edited by cicero on Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:34 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Postby jennifermarie on Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:24 am

cicero wrote:
Any neutral armies on the map are zombies.
The zombies automatically take their turn last in the game round.
At the start of the zombies' turn one army is added to every territory held. Zombies do not earn any bonuses.
All zombie territories with 4 or more armies auto-attack their non-zombie neighbour* until they win the battle or have 3 or less armies. If they win the battle they advance all possible armies. If they have no non-zombie neighbours then they cannot attack (just as for normal players). The zombies continue their turn until they cannot attack further as defined by these rules.



Cicero


(shortened and bolded for emphasis) How would the bolded part work during a freestyle game if people are delaying their turns and run out the 24 hour clock? or would the zombie start playing during the last 2 minutes of a round guaranteed? (unless able to play earlier due to people not waiting until the last second?)
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Postby yeti_c on Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:31 am

jennifermarie wrote:
cicero wrote:
Any neutral armies on the map are zombies.
The zombies automatically take their turn last in the game round.
At the start of the zombies' turn one army is added to every territory held. Zombies do not earn any bonuses.
All zombie territories with 4 or more armies auto-attack their non-zombie neighbour* until they win the battle or have 3 or less armies. If they win the battle they advance all possible armies. If they have no non-zombie neighbours then they cannot attack (just as for normal players). The zombies continue their turn until they cannot attack further as defined by these rules.



Cicero


(shortened and bolded for emphasis) How would the bolded part work during a freestyle game if people are delaying their turns and run out the 24 hour clock? or would the zombie start playing during the last 2 minutes of a round guaranteed? (unless able to play earlier due to people not waiting until the last second?)


I think a better wording would be...

Zombies take their turn in between rounds...

I.e. after everyone has played - before anyone else can play...

C.
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Postby cicero on Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:38 am

jennifermarie wrote:
cicero wrote:
Any neutral armies on the map are zombies.
The zombies automatically take their turn last in the game round.
At the start of the zombies' turn one army is added to every territory held. Zombies do not earn any bonuses.
All zombie territories with 4 or more armies auto-attack their non-zombie neighbour* until they win the battle or have 3 or less armies. If they win the battle they advance all possible armies. If they have no non-zombie neighbours then they cannot attack (just as for normal players). The zombies continue their turn until they cannot attack further as defined by these rules.
Cicero


(shortened and bolded for emphasis) How would the bolded part work during a freestyle game if people are delaying their turns and run out the 24 hour clock? or would the zombie start playing during the last 2 minutes of a round guaranteed? (unless able to play earlier due to people not waiting until the last second?)

My first thought is:

Let's consider speed, freestyle games since these are the most intense version of freestyle with players taking their turns effectively at the same time.

I think that introducing the zombies to this real time arena would be unpredictable and potentially unfair since zombies would (unless deliberately hampered) be quick to play and so being close to them would be a negative.

At present, as the game round nears its end, more and more players complete their turn until there is only one player completing his/her turn.
As that final player completes their turn the next round is started allowing everyone (except that final player) to start their next turn.

I would propose that the zombies take their turn after the final player and before the next round starts.

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Postby DiM on Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:55 am

cicero wrote:
DiM wrote:AoR magic with zombie mode on would be a battle for survival. killing others won't matter surviving the longest will be the idea.

which come to think of it would be something really really nice.
I missed the significance of this when I first read it.

DiM points out that on maps where (whether as designed by the mapmakers or as the result of deadbeating) there are overwhelming numbers of zombies the gameplay will change. Rather than one player dominating the map by conquering the other players and any zombies until the player wins, it will be a matter of the zombies dominating the map - taking out the players one by one until there is only one player left ... at which point that one player will win! By default. Beautiful.

And hence there will never be a question of the zombies winning any games or any points.

Cicero


my words are shrouded in a veil of mystery and deceit and i only talk in riddles.
well done o solving my riddle young padawan :lol:

anyway i actually like the battle for survival gameplay the most. as i said in the pms having a few neutrals on a map won't matter much but the real fun will be on maps with lots of neutrals. keeping the zombies at a low level to not attack you and at the same time strategically creating paths for the zombies to kill the other players will be great.
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Postby DiM on Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:57 am

yeti_c wrote:
jennifermarie wrote:
cicero wrote:
Any neutral armies on the map are zombies.
The zombies automatically take their turn last in the game round.
At the start of the zombies' turn one army is added to every territory held. Zombies do not earn any bonuses.
All zombie territories with 4 or more armies auto-attack their non-zombie neighbour* until they win the battle or have 3 or less armies. If they win the battle they advance all possible armies. If they have no non-zombie neighbours then they cannot attack (just as for normal players). The zombies continue their turn until they cannot attack further as defined by these rules.



Cicero


(shortened and bolded for emphasis) How would the bolded part work during a freestyle game if people are delaying their turns and run out the 24 hour clock? or would the zombie start playing during the last 2 minutes of a round guaranteed? (unless able to play earlier due to people not waiting until the last second?)


I think a better wording would be...

Zombies take their turn in between rounds...

I.e. after everyone has played - before anyone else can play...

C.


exactly, not to mention we don't need zombies to actually have rolling dice and stuff like that. i mean the graphic part. we'll only see the map suddenly changes as a result of zombie attacking and moving.
it would be a 1 second thing in between rounds.
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Postby yeti_c on Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:00 am

DiM wrote:
yeti_c wrote:
jennifermarie wrote:
cicero wrote:
Any neutral armies on the map are zombies.
The zombies automatically take their turn last in the game round.
At the start of the zombies' turn one army is added to every territory held. Zombies do not earn any bonuses.
All zombie territories with 4 or more armies auto-attack their non-zombie neighbour* until they win the battle or have 3 or less armies. If they win the battle they advance all possible armies. If they have no non-zombie neighbours then they cannot attack (just as for normal players). The zombies continue their turn until they cannot attack further as defined by these rules.



Cicero


(shortened and bolded for emphasis) How would the bolded part work during a freestyle game if people are delaying their turns and run out the 24 hour clock? or would the zombie start playing during the last 2 minutes of a round guaranteed? (unless able to play earlier due to people not waiting until the last second?)


I think a better wording would be...

Zombies take their turn in between rounds...

I.e. after everyone has played - before anyone else can play...

C.


exactly, not to mention we don't need zombies to actually have rolling dice and stuff like that. i mean the graphic part. we'll only see the map suddenly changes as a result of zombie attacking and moving.
it would be a 1 second thing in between rounds.


Yeah - no point in seeing the updates as they happen - just calculate it - then output the new values and the updated Log.

C.
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Postby vrex on Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:38 pm

yeti_c wrote:
DiM wrote:
yeti_c wrote:
jennifermarie wrote:
cicero wrote:
Any neutral armies on the map are zombies.
The zombies automatically take their turn last in the game round.
At the start of the zombies' turn one army is added to every territory held. Zombies do not earn any bonuses.
All zombie territories with 4 or more armies auto-attack their non-zombie neighbour* until they win the battle or have 3 or less armies. If they win the battle they advance all possible armies. If they have no non-zombie neighbours then they cannot attack (just as for normal players). The zombies continue their turn until they cannot attack further as defined by these rules.



Cicero


(shortened and bolded for emphasis) How would the bolded part work during a freestyle game if people are delaying their turns and run out the 24 hour clock? or would the zombie start playing during the last 2 minutes of a round guaranteed? (unless able to play earlier due to people not waiting until the last second?)


I think a better wording would be...

Zombies take their turn in between rounds...

I.e. after everyone has played - before anyone else can play...

C.


exactly, not to mention we don't need zombies to actually have rolling dice and stuff like that. i mean the graphic part. we'll only see the map suddenly changes as a result of zombie attacking and moving.
it would be a 1 second thing in between rounds.


Yeah - no point in seeing the updates as they happen - just calculate it - then output the new values and the updated Log.

C.


the last part here almost makes it sound like the zombies dont roll dice at all :shock: im sure they do but just very quickly right 8-[
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Postby DiM on Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:42 pm

vrex wrote:
yeti_c wrote:
Yeah - no point in seeing the updates as they happen - just calculate it - then output the new values and the updated Log.

C.


the last part here almost makes it sound like the zombies dont roll dice at all :shock: im sure they do but just very quickly right 8-[



zombies will roll dice and move around like any player but the difference is that you won't see the dice rolling and you won't see the armies moving. you'll just see the loading animation few seconds and then the updated map with all the zombie actions.
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Postby KoE_Sirius on Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:17 pm

So when do you think this is going to be put into action ?
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Postby DiM on Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:20 pm

KoE_Sirius wrote:So when do you think this is going to be put into action ?


whenever lack approves it and implements it, which can be somewhere from tomorrow to never.
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Postby wcaclimbing on Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:58 pm

I just read this thread and.....
AWESOME IDEA!
This will make the AoR and Feudal maps so much more awesome.

Oh man, i just thought of something. In Magic there is the 75 on Sanctuary.... It would be insane, and possibly suicide, but imagine setting up a path for that 75 to actually leave the sanctuary and demolish one or more of your opponents. The 75 would kill your enemies, and it leaving would leave Sanctuary open for the taking. Like i said, it could be suicide, but if it worked it would be awesome.

Also, those 10s in Feudal will get pretty interesting. So many new strategies will be needed.
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Postby cicero on Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:42 am

DiM wrote:
vrex wrote:
yeti_c wrote:Yeah - no point in seeing the updates as they happen - just calculate it - then output the new values and the updated Log.

C.

the last part here almost makes it sound like the zombies dont roll dice at all :shock: im sure they do but just very quickly right 8-[


zombies will roll dice and move around like any player but the difference is that you won't see the dice rolling and you won't see the armies moving. you'll just see the loading animation few seconds and then the updated map with all the zombie actions.

I expect you all (yeti_c & DiM) are right in the nature of the implementation.

However sometimes, in casual games, I happen to be on CC just as another is taking their turn. If it's a particularly interesting game I sometimes look at the game and repeatedly click 'refresh map' so that I can see them moving across the map and/or review their moves in the game log. [I appreciate that I never see their dice.]

It would be nice to have this option if I happened to arrive at my game just as the round ended and the zombies played ...

However the more I think about it the less sensible it seems to build in such a delay.

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Postby fireedud on Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:25 am

I can imagine Fuedal, everybody would be bombarding the 10's to make them less troublesome, and people would be bombarding a lot more often.
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Postby alex_white101 on Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:49 am

can i put a ''z'' in front of my name please then?
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Postby DiM on Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:43 am

alex_white101 wrote:can i put a ''z'' in front of my name please then?


it will be abut terit names in alphabetical order not player names. :roll:
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Postby wcaclimbing on Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:09 pm

DiM wrote:
alex_white101 wrote:can i put a ''z'' in front of my name please then?


it will be abut terit names in alphabetical order not player names. :roll:
why not have the zombies attack the biggest army near them? Like someone said above, it would be more "food" for the zombies to attack the big armies. That would make it much more strategy and much less "it will attack x,y, and then z because they are in alphabetical order.

Alphabet would get boring, because the paths of the zombies would be too predictable and, like someone else said above, the maps with indavidual starting places would suck, because the guy with the lowest country name alphabetically would always get owned by the neutrals.
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Postby DiM on Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:30 pm

wcaclimbing wrote:
DiM wrote:
alex_white101 wrote:can i put a ''z'' in front of my name please then?


it will be abut terit names in alphabetical order not player names. :roll:
why not have the zombies attack the biggest army near them? Like someone said above, it would be more "food" for the zombies to attack the big armies. That would make it much more strategy and much less "it will attack x,y, and then z because they are in alphabetical order.

Alphabet would get boring, because the paths of the zombies would be too predictable and, like someone else said above, the maps with indavidual starting places would suck, because the guy with the lowest country name alphabetically would always get owned by the neutrals.


i already talked about this with cicero when he said he'd like zombies to attack the strongest and in case of a tie to attack alphabetically.

but this is bad because if a guy has a continent (let's say australia) all he has to do is leave 1 on indochina and he will never be attacked because the other player will bring more than 1 troop to china to try and break australia. and at the same time you get a nice zombie defence as well as your bonus.

yes you could make them attack the strongest and if both are the same size decide randomly but i strongly object to that cause the last thing we want is another random factor. remember all the dice and initial drop complaining threads? well, do you want zombie complaining threads?
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Postby InkL0sed on Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:59 pm

You could make breaking continents a tie-breaker before it does it alphabetically.
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