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team flat rate

Postby betiko on Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:07 am

here's a question: do you think there is any reason/situation where it's better not to trade a 3 carder rainbow set in team flat rate, mostly with territory bonus you will probably lose by the following turn?
I'm in a quads with 3 teammates I've never played with before and we've been arguing about it. My reasoning is that no matter what, the troops are always better on the board than in unused spoils and it can't get any better than a rainbow set. Not only attackwise, but if you really don't plan on using them for attack they always come in handy for defense. Also, you never know what can happen and if opponents get lucky and eliminate you by the time it's your next turn. I've just been told "only noobs trade straight away". I'd agree with that on escalating with someone always trading no matter what.
Am I the only one thinking these guys are out of their mind? The only situation I can see that would justify this strategy is having the possibility to eliminate someone without trading and having the possibility to double trade mid turn.
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Re: team flat rate

Postby AyeTrain on Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:04 am

There are good arguments both ways: the only reason to wait until 5 is so that you have 3 on the following turn (assuming you take a territory, of course). My thought is that you get your troops and may have another set immediately, back to back (which could be very helpful if your situation suddenly gets bad). If you turn the 3 in immediately, you may go 5 turns before you can turn in again, and lots of things can happen in 5 turns. If you hold your 3, you can turn in every 3 turns.

But that's just my general rule. If I'm in danger of elimination I turn in whenever I can, not only to get the troops but to make myself a less tempting target. Likewise, if I really need to win this coming battle, or need a show of force on the border, then I'll turn in cards.
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Re: team flat rate

Postby betiko on Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:26 am

AyeTrain wrote:There are good arguments both ways: the only reason to wait until 5 is so that you have 3 on the following turn (assuming you take a territory, of course). My thought is that you get your troops and may have another set immediately, back to back (which could be very helpful if your situation suddenly gets bad). If you turn the 3 in immediately, you may go 5 turns before you can turn in again, and lots of things can happen in 5 turns. If you hold your 3, you can turn in every 3 turns.

But that's just my general rule. If I'm in danger of elimination I turn in whenever I can, not only to get the troops but to make myself a less tempting target. Likewise, if I really need to win this coming battle, or need a show of force on the border, then I'll turn in cards.


there is no reason to wait for a potential back to back trade in 2 turns with just 33% chances happening. there is no reason not to be as strong as you can potentially get trading a rainbow. You don't know what your opponents will trade by then, they can be up to 4 on the oposing team trading and keeping 4 spoils in hand is plain stupid. trading asap helps you target someone your teammates will probably be able to finish off.
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Re: team flat rate

Postby SirSebstar on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:09 am

one reason to wait can be to synchonice your sets to kill a player...if nothing better to do, then cash in..
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Re: team flat rate

Postby Koganosi on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:33 am

Can find 3 reasons:

SirSebstar wrote:one reason to wait can be to synchonice your sets to kill a player...if nothing better to do, then cash in..


This is number one.

Number 2 is:

Your certain you can get some lands in wich your cards have the same name, aka your cards will turn bold and you can get more bonus of them.

Number 3 is:

Your certain that you can eliminate a players with 3 or more cards. Wich possible would give you the chance of a double cash and more troops on the board. This one can especially fair really good if you take a player with 4 cards down. Good odds on 2 sets. I sometimes use this tactic. I find myself doing it more often then reason 1 and 2.

Even though I agree with you, more troops on the board is always better. You could think about keeping them if its not a rainbow set. But with a rainbow insta cash normally.

Urs

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Re: team flat rate

Postby betiko on Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:08 pm

SirSebstar wrote:one reason to wait can be to synchonice your sets to kill a player...if nothing better to do, then cash in..


in that case, cash and drop most part on your mate that will most likely have the next good set and will be in position to do the kill.

none of you has convinced me that the statement "always cash in immediately a rainbow set in flat rate" does not always apply.
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Re: team flat rate

Postby betiko on Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:13 pm

Koganosi wrote:Can find 3 reasons:

SirSebstar wrote:one reason to wait can be to synchonice your sets to kill a player...if nothing better to do, then cash in..


This is number one.

Number 2 is:

Your certain you can get some lands in wich your cards have the same name, aka your cards will turn bold and you can get more bonus of them.

Number 3 is:

Your certain that you can eliminate a players with 3 or more cards. Wich possible would give you the chance of a double cash and more troops on the board. This one can especially fair really good if you take a player with 4 cards down. Good odds on 2 sets. I sometimes use this tactic. I find myself doing it more often then reason 1 and 2.

Even though I agree with you, more troops on the board is always better. You could think about keeping them if its not a rainbow set. But with a rainbow insta cash normally.

Urs

Koganosi


yes, I think your reason 1 is kind of true but you need to have a huge advace to take a risk for so little and if you have a big advance you might as well get over it quicker.
your reason 2 is the one I mentioned originally as the only one I saw worth mentioning; but you really need to be certain you can kill that 3-4 carder opponent without cashing. If he holds 3 cards you only have 33% chances of double cashing; 4 cards doesn't give you 100% double cash opportunity either. so even in that case, I wouldn't take the risk and miss an elimination. I would have a pretty good stack left with 4/5 spoils in hand waiting for next turn.
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Re: team flat rate

Postby Jippd on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:59 pm

I think you have received several reasons why you should not cash right away with a ten set.

If you can wait an extra round and take two territories that make your cards bold and thus get 4 extra troops with your cash that is a reason to wait.

If you have a ten set that can cash but are first to go in your team it may be best to hold it so you could do a back to back cash for a kill. Pretend in this scenario that you were first in turn order on your team and your 3rd in turn order had a ten set as well that they just got. If you cash at 3 or 4 cards as soon as you can then someone on their team may cash to counter or trim your stack. It may be better to have your third in turn order cash then you cash the following turn after so only one of their players could cash between your cash and your third players cash. This would be useful if you wanted a surprise stack to appear for a kill run or something and would involve you not cashing your ten set ASAP.

I think these would be the only reasons I could see to hold a ten set in flat rate but I am sure there are others.

I agree with kogo though for the most part I will cash a ten set. Usually to control the map is to control not only where you deploy but where your opponents deploy. If you play aggressive usually it results in your opponents needing to play catch up. I would say I cash a ten set 9/10 times as soon as I can in flat rate.

There is one other time when it is disadvantageous to cash at ten as well. Say you have a set and nobody else on your team has a set. If all of your opponents have a set it may be best to hold your set. The problem is if you cash and take some territories you may be ahead for a bit. Then the opposing team could cash 2 or 3 sets and take a bonus that would be virtually impossible for your team to break. Holding the set allows for needed troops to be thrown out that could counter this threat.
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Re: team flat rate

Postby betiko on Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:37 am

dude, unless the maps is awfully big, if your whole team has a cash on a turn and your opponents don't then you're pretty sure to be able to eliminate one of them! ;)

other thing: assuming that everybody is on the same carding pace; a first to cash 3 carder rainbow trade means that not only each opponent has only 33% chances to trade that turn and 67% the following, but the odds fall even lower if it comes to rainbow trades (am I thinking wrong here? a 3 carder rainbow =6/27=22%?? i tought it would be a much lower odd). Anyway, having up to 2 rounds advance trading on your opponent usually means taking a huge advantage. this can be by removing the troops of a particular opponent from one area lesser accessible for your teammates in order to set him for a kill, and/or to take a bonus that will be another concern for the opponents.
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Re: team flat rate

Postby Jippd on Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:47 pm

Yes I agree most of the time I can and will cash a ten set...I even cash 8 sets sometimes if I have them and it will allow me to take an advantage.

I was just putting scenarios out there would it be better not to cash. Though rare they do exist.

You asked I answered ;)
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Re: team flat rate

Postby Kaskavel on Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:08 pm

You are right betiko. The default normal play is to cash whenever you have a rainbow. There are obviously some exceptions, mainly concerning situations that you lack information about the optimal use of the extra 10 troops, but those are the exceptions, not the rule. And given your partners' reaction (only noobs trade straight away), which does not claim some exceptional circumstances, but instead indicates that they consider holding on the cards is the rule, it is quite possible that they are completely misunderstanding the issue
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Re: team flat rate

Postby betiko on Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:58 am

one of my partner said he would reply.
Basically here was the situation: baltic crusade quads, I was just in front of an enemy castle with 14 on it (playing straight after me with 3 spoils in hand, all his territories ligned up behind that castle), had the territory bonus of that piece fo land, and had a teammate behind me all ligned up to get killed.
I didn't understand how there could be a second of hesitation and I could be asked to "maybe not trade my rainbow this turn" as one of them playing before me with 4 cards in hand had a rainbow.
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Re: team flat rate

Postby darth emperor on Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:45 am

If is not necessary (be for assaulting or defending) why to trade it immediately?

If you use this troops unnecessarily on one side, and then you see that the next turn you really needed a set for other side, what you'll do? True, you can reinforce, or any other thing but like that you'll waist a turn. But if you wait, till the 5th card,and then change, you can get a double set. (Cashing twice, in two rounds).

betiko wrote:Not only attackwise, but if you really don't plan on using them for attack they always come in handy for defense. Also, you never know what can happen and if opponents get lucky and eliminate you by the time it's your next turn.

If he can kill you, is because the spoils were necessary.

betiko wrote:there is no reason not to be as strong as you can potentially get trading a rainbow. You don't know what your opponents will trade by then

Exactly, if you don't know, why change so fast? Maybe, is just me, but when I see a player with 3 or more spoils, I always think he has a rainbow set and that he'll change it. So, I have to be more cautious during this turns. But when he has less than 3 spoils, I much more aggressive, as he can't have anything. So for me, the spoils are basically to recover things that the dice has spoiled.

For example, just now I was in a 1v1, where each of us had 4 spoils, and I'm having the lead, I decided to change my set to take from some regions (as he'll only be surrounded by neutrals). The dice, didn't let me do my plan, so now he has 4 cards and can do me a lot of damage, and I won't be able to recover easily because I have 2 spoils. (Of course, this depends a lot in 1) if he has a set or not and its value. 2) The dice he has.
The most probably, is that he won't do me much damage, but if I had my set, atleast I know I can recover if the worst happens.

betiko wrote:
SirSebstar wrote:one reason to wait can be to synchonice your sets to kill a player...if nothing better to do, then cash in..


in that case, cash and drop most part on your mate that will most likely have the next good set and will be in position to do the kill.

Nope, if you do it before, they have much more chances to defend. If you wait, they can't be sure of
1-If you'll use that tactic.
2-Who'll be the one to hold all the troops.
3-Where you'll deploy.
if you do it before hand, they'll know immediately all your planning. And they'll counterattack that. The only reason I can find to do it before hand, would be if you are setting up a bobby trap.

betiko wrote:yes, I think your reason 1 is kind of true but you need to have a huge advace to take a risk for so little and if you have a big advance you might as well get over it quicker.


I have seen, this strategy in action many times with good results, it's very useful in conquest maps, like Oasis.

Koganosi wrote:Even though I agree with you, more troops on the board is always better. You could think about keeping them if its not a rainbow set. But with a rainbow insta cash normally.

If you have already, a rainbow set, technically they are already in the board, in fact they are more dangerous, because they are like omnipresent troops, you can put them where you want, and start your attacks directly.


Jippd wrote:I agree with kogo though for the most part I will cash a ten set. Usually to control the map is to control not only where you deploy but where your opponents deploy. If you play aggressive usually it results in your opponents needing to play catch up. I would say I cash a ten set 9/10 times as soon as I can in flat rate.

True, but with a little of bad luck, you'll just hand the control over your enemy, and you won't be even able to catch up. That's why I wouldn't say 9/10 times, but 7 out of 10 or even 6 out of 10.

betiko wrote:I've just been told "only noobs trade straight away". I'd agree with that on escalating with someone always trading no matter what.

I think, he meant it, in the same way when people tell to noobs "never attack 2v1 or 3v2", but then you can find like 30 reason of why you SHOULD make 2v1or 3v2 attacks. Trading immediately just because you have a set of 10, like it is a golden rule, doesn't make sense. All depends on the circumstances.
Also, for escalating, is the other way around, the nobish thing would be to always wait for the 5th card to trade, no matter what. Sometimes, you HAVE to trade with 4 or ever 3 spoils.


I still, have many things to answer, but for the moment I'll leave it here.
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