Dubs and Trips

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Dubs and Trips

Postby Mr Changsha on Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:08 am

I have a 65% win rate at trips and a 45% win rate at 2 on 2 dubs. I wonder if anyone has an explanation for this?

I have felt for a long time that the strategies I employ at trips seem less effective when playing dubs. Is this because my methods (which are always employed on basic medium to large sized maps with sequential, chained, no cards) are not suitable for dubs, or is that dubs on basic maps is simply too luck-dependent? Personally, I feel that I am doing something wrong when I play dubs and I wonder if any kind soul would be nice enough to give me some pointers..
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Re: Dubs and Trips

Postby Swifte on Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:58 am

Part of it probably has to do with teamwork... the larger the team, the harder it is to get everyone moving towards the same goals. If you're better at that than most people, than you'll have more of an advantage in trips and quads than in dubs.
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Re: Dubs and Trips

Postby skillfull on Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:27 pm

If we played a double together , on the settings you usually play, i could told you if it is just bad luck or a mistake on your main strategy.
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Re: Dubs and Trips

Postby Beko the Great on Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:05 am

Mr Changsha wrote:I have a 65% win rate at trips and a 45% win rate at 2 on 2 dubs. I wonder if anyone has an explanation for this?

I have felt for a long time that the strategies I employ at trips seem less effective when playing dubs. Is this because my methods (which are always employed on basic medium to large sized maps with sequential, chained, no cards) are not suitable for dubs, or is that dubs on basic maps is simply too luck-dependent? Personally, I feel that I am doing something wrong when I play dubs and I wonder if any kind soul would be nice enough to give me some pointers..


The strategies I use are a lot different in trips and dubs, with the exception of conquest maps... But, I have few experience with no spoils. So trips might be quite different. In trips and quads even more I try to attack mostly one of the players whilst trying to go for some minor bonus. In dubs 2vs2, I see that bonus are more important (in no spoil games they must be too) and the strategy I employ is to try that each member attacks the other team member that plays next.

I have a 54% win rate in 2vs2 and hope that this was useful ;)
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Re: Dubs and Trips

Postby Mr Changsha on Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:55 pm

From my last 20 dubs games my rate is exactly 50%. Not awful, but far from good enough for me. Since my return in 2012, trips is averaging at 72%.

I wonder if the issue is map selection. I don't like dubs on say 2.1, as I feel the deploys are too large for my tastes. I'm not keen on small dubs maps as I feel (just like very large ones) that one cannot absorb early bad dice well. On trips I enjoy very large maps or medium-large maps (say 11 starting regions). That would lead me to feel that a dubs map with around 14 starting regions would be ideal. I have experimented, but have never felt that I have dominated a map in dubs (strangely apart from 13 colonies, which is the only map on dubs that I have any kind of record at all).

The key for me is that I play a game where it is possible to absorb bad dice on rounds 1 and 2 but still come back. Remember that my settings are always sunny, chained, no cards. I only play basic maps generally, though I think it is interesting that the only map I do feel comfortable on for dubs (13 colonies) is not exactly a basic map.

I find the obvious difference in performance interesting. Is anyone out there now playing basic maps dubs on my settings and dominating? Surely there is...

Of course most players these days play team games foggy, or on complicated maps, or add trench, or escalating. I play the most basic settings on the most basic maps. Yet it works well for trips. I am not actually convinced that the problem is my strategy (as generally I compete well on various settings), I feel it is related to the limitations of my settings on dubs. However, I would welcome an opposing viewpoint.
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Re: Dubs and Trips

Postby Donelladan on Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:01 am

So you play dub sunny no cards on simple map.
So it is almost as simple as 1vs1 on simple map. 99% luck, 1% skills. 50% winning is quite normal then :)

I mean, except playing against total noob in double, there is nothing really difficult, drop and dices will decide the winner.
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Re: Dubs and Trips

Postby Mr Changsha on Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:20 am

Donelladan wrote:So you play dub sunny no cards on simple map.
So it is almost as simple as 1vs1 on simple map. 99% luck, 1% skills. 50% winning is quite normal then :)

I mean, except playing against total noob in double, there is nothing really difficult, drop and dices will decide the winner.


Yet trips adds SUCH a level of complexity? Of course trips is more complicated, but one can still chain fort, or attack 4 on 3 at the required times, or concentrate on turn order (and all the other strategies one employs for trips).

I've always believed that my settings are not luck-based for trips, so dubs should surely not be 99% luck..

I maintain that I just need to find the right maps.
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Re: Dubs and Trips

Postby Clive on Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:26 pm

Hmm..on those settings (no spoils chained sunny no trench) I have 67% (73/109), with not many repeated maps, but the stand out performers are:

Classic 15/21 (71%)
Space 4/4
Alexander's Empire 4/4
Midgard 4/4

I believe for all 4 of those maps the start terr count is 10 for each player. My sample size is pretty small though.
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Re: Dubs and Trips

Postby Denise on Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:28 pm

I have a 65% win rate at trips and a 58% win rate at 4 player dubs with those settings. I enjoy your preferred settings on simple maps and have played quite a lot of them though not as a steady diet, as you have.

In my opinion, a more aggressive way of playing is the answer. The early luck of the opposition requires more aggression to overcome in dubs than it does in trips or quads. Dubs is more luck based so of course the meticulous, cautious process that is sometimes so effective in trips and quads at overcoming deficits doesn't always pan out in dubs as well as it should. If dubs is more luck dependent then it makes sense to rely more on luck and throw caution to the wind more often that one would in trips or quads games.

Setting up a play must be done faster also, since there are less players to use in doing so. I've thought about this before and I've always thought that being as successful at dubs as I can takes a bit more aggression, so I think that is the main difference. At least that's how I see it.
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Re: Dubs and Trips

Postby Mr Changsha on Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:16 am

Denise wrote:I have a 65% win rate at trips and a 58% win rate at 4 player dubs with those settings. I enjoy your preferred settings on simple maps and have played quite a lot of them though not as a steady diet, as you have.

In my opinion, a more aggressive way of playing is the answer. The early luck of the opposition requires more aggression to overcome in dubs than it does in trips or quads. Dubs is more luck based so of course the meticulous, cautious process that is sometimes so effective in trips and quads at overcoming deficits doesn't always pan out in dubs as well as it should. If dubs is more luck dependent then it makes sense to rely more on luck and throw caution to the wind more often that one would in trips or quads games.

Setting up a play must be done faster also, since there are less players to use in doing so. I've thought about this before and I've always thought that being as successful at dubs as I can takes a bit more aggression, so I think that is the main difference. At least that's how I see it.


Thanks for the comment, Denise.

Your argument does make sense to me. I am a fairly defensive trips player, I do tend to build my position over a couple of rounds, I detest leaving an open 1 that might get hit.

I know that a 45% win rate suggests an error of thinking on my part, either because of map selection or base strategy. I refuse to accept the 'those settings are just luck' argument.

If I look at what I almost never do; such as throw 6 on 3 from the first move, or what I certainly prefer to do; like throw an 11 on the second move, or what I sometimes do on a first move; have one 4 on 3 shot and send the other 2 for a stack and fort, then your ideas about being more aggressive does indeed make me think.

Generally, I suspect the issue is that my team strategy has been developed on such a narrow form (I mean I'd rather die then even play flat!) that everything comes unstuck with a change from trips to dubs even with the same settings. Well not completely unstuck - I am averaging around 50% these days - but still not good enough.

That we have the same trips percentage on those settings but your dubs percentage is a full 13% higher is more than suggestive, and I take your point about being more aggressive on round 1 very seriously.
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