Esc. for Beginners pg4---Esc. Intermediate pg8

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Postby stringybeany on Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:18 am

joecoolfrog wrote:...these strategies will not work well against competent players...


No kidding.

I noticed very few competent players as I worked my way through the privates.

BEGINNERS ESCALATING:

BEGINNERS

DEADBEATS

SUICIDES

I may have seen one or two effective blocks in my first 75 games. Maybe.

So let's please stay on topic and focus on a "simple strategy that will help the beginner through their first 50 games."

If you have alternatives that will be effective IN THAT CONTEXT, then speak up.

Thanks
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Postby stringybeany on Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:30 am

CrabNebula wrote:...
You might want to mention that in Chained/Adjacent fort games, you won't be able to pile up your armies. A different strategy is required if you are going for a continent/elimination.


good point
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Postby chessplaya on Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:50 am

joecoolfrog wrote:I have to agree with Chessplayer that these strategies will not work well against competent players, against poorer players it is difficult to be precise because of the generally erratic play but from the start these are the basic escalating rules. I am assuming 5/6 player games as with 4 players or less it is always going to be a dice lottery from the start.

1) Do try not to lose armies early on, in the early rounds your aim is to have a balance of countries across the board with a roughly equal spread of armies on each - try to only attack singles and skip a card rather than attacking a 3 or 4.

2) Unless you literaly have a continent sewn up from the start than never try to take one - avoid major battles until you are ready to take a player out. NEVER use your cash to take a continent as the return will be negligable in a short game and it will make you a target- once you get to a certain level it is almost always suicide.

3) As a general rule of thumb games are won by a chain reaction which involves taking out the majority or all your opponents in one turn so always aim to get enough cards from a kill to enable a mid turn recash. Losing half your armies just in order to end up sitting on 5 cards is again usually suicide, the aim is always to stay strong enough not to be the next victim.
4) Lastly I would always caution patience when going for kills as far more games are lost than won by players striking too early with a 12 or 15 cash,chances are you will simply weaken another opponent badly and make him an easy kill for the next guy in line.


thanks for explaining it to them ... i actually didnt have the time so i made it short and a bit rude....

Stringybeany : u could have been less aggressive out there... i never intended to flame u .... as for babies , u show a good example of them... now be happy ur the newest kid.. not on the block but on my ignore list... i repeat ... i havent had the intention to make u cry or to make u mad .. all i wanted to point out is that ur STUPID strategy needs enhancement .. but anyway u already made a fool out of urself and probably 80% of high ranked players will avoid u in their games because they have read how ur little mind works....


BUZZ OFF NOW

and BTW plz do tell the mods .... about this ... i bet when they read this thread they will send u a warning for giving out stupid strategies...

u can forget about me ...i am just a cook... but if u ever end up in 1 of my games i am gonna show u ... how the game is played ! :wink:
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Postby chessplaya on Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:52 am

stringybeany wrote:
joecoolfrog wrote:...these strategies will not work well against competent players...


No kidding.

I noticed very few competent players as I worked my way through the privates.

BEGINNERS ESCALATING:

BEGINNERS

DEADBEATS

SUICIDES

I may have seen one or two effective blocks in my first 75 games. Maybe.

So let's please stay on topic and focus on a "simple strategy that will help the beginner through their first 50 games."

If you have alternatives that will be effective IN THAT CONTEXT, then speak up.

Thanks


oops

I now read this ... and i understand that this is meant to be simple for the beginners ... its not actually ur strategy ?

plz explain to me .. if thats the case then i am sorry ... and what u mentioned in ur 1st post is more then enough for noobies!
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Postby wicked on Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:14 am

Hey chessy, instead of publicly bashing this guy's strategy, why don't you offer your own instead? I'm sure everyone would listen to a strategy coming from such a high rank as yours. It's OK to offer constructive criticism and point out the pitfalls of what someone else posted, but your comments were bordering on flaming. So let's hear Escalating 101 by Chessy?
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Postby scottie on Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:21 am

What are blocks? I know the dictionary definition, I mean in CC.
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Postby Hatchman on Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:46 am

joe and chess know what they're talking about- it's best to heed intently.
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Postby joecoolfrog on Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:48 am

scottie wrote:What are blocks? I know the dictionary definition, I mean in CC.


In escalating you are normally planning at least one move ahead and it is as important to plan for your opponents next attack as it is your own. Consequently if it becomes apparent that a certain player is ripe for killing ( and you cant get him yourself) then you deploy in an area to protect the weak player - this is known as blocking. It is far better than simply attacking a strong player because you dont weaken yourself, there is the likliehood of yourself getting attacked of course but its a question of judgement - there is no point just sitting back and staying out of trouble just to hand somebody else an easy win.
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Postby DiM on Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:49 am

i think the most important rule for beginners in an escalating game is:


DO NOT BOTHER TAKING OR BREAKING CONTINENTS.

sorry for the caps but i've seen this happen too many times.

i get a continent a +2 or+3 one (a small continent) and i have 10 on the border.
the cash-ins are in the 30-40 range and i have 30 troops + 5 cards waiting for my next turn to cash in eliminate cash-in eliminate, etc. and somebody comes and thinks: "hey this guy has a bonus i must break him" so he takes all his armies and kills my 10 troop pile. he's now down to 10-15 troops and has 5 cards also. another guy comes along kills him cashes in kills me cashes in and so on. i've seen this thing happen so many times i'm fed up with it. people that think a +2 continent is actually worth something when the card cash-in brings 30 troops.

and i guess the second rule is derived from the first one:

NEVER EVER PUT YOURSELF OR ANOTHER PLAYER IN A POSITION WHERE YOU/HE MIGHT GET ELIMINATED.
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Postby joecoolfrog on Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:05 am

stringybeany wrote:
joecoolfrog wrote:...these strategies will not work well against competent players...


No kidding.

I noticed very few competent players as I worked my way through the privates.

BEGINNERS ESCALATING:

BEGINNERS

DEADBEATS

SUICIDES

I may have seen one or two effective blocks in my first 75 games. Maybe.

So let's please stay on topic and focus on a "simple strategy that will help the beginner through their first 50 games."

If you have alternatives that will be effective IN THAT CONTEXT, then speak up.

Thanks


I consider your premise to be completely wrong, if you get into bad habits in your first 50 games then you will struggle to change when you play better opponents. Thats why so many players hit a block when they get to 2100 points, escalating is not flat rate with bigger armies it is a completely different game. The best escalating players on this site learnt the basics well and honed their strategies as they moved through the ranks,they did not suddenly get to a certain point and then change their method. What was good enough for the great escalating players like maniacmath,genghis khan and comic boy is good enough for me.
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Postby jiminski on Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:13 am

A block is a mass army on a strategic area which makes it tough for opponents to make a kill on another.

the most simple block is as follows:
Blue owns Oceania, by placing a large force on Siam you make it so an opponent has to go through you to kill blue and claim the cards.

This may sound counter-intuitive but this should dissuade your opponent from making the attack in the fist place. If you have 15 troops on Siam and blue has 20 in Oceania and the card cash is only 30 then it is rarely worth expending your troops for the kill.


This may also sound like an act of kindness to Blue, it is not! By making it awkward for your opponents to kill another in this way, you also make it easier for you to kill Blue later on.


the problem with even talking about 'Blocks', in what is supposed to be a beginners thread, is that if you try this method Blue in Oceania will likely see you as a threat to his bonus and not a barrier. You are likely to find that Blue will attack you in Siam.

good on you for trying String.
Wacicha posted an excellent beginners guide, which really should have been Stickied i think.

Hehe..in case someone saw this posted by Surfingmace... must be careful about posting when you are babysitting
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Postby Hatchman on Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:13 am

StringyBeany, my wife started an account about a month ago, playing all escalating under my fine supervision. We noticed exactly what DiM was referring to: guys going nuts trying to take and break continents. The result? Weak players all over the place holding lots of cards :D I advised my wife to steer well clear of all the silliness and just attack 1s to get cards. Then cash and kill weaker guys holding 4 or 5 cards. It worked beautifully in most cases - sometimes she didn't even have to cash to kill because she had built up so much strength while the other guys went nuts against each other and didn't notice LOL. The result so far? After 16 games she has 1470 points or something.

Me? I'm another story altogether...
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Postby jiminski on Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:23 am

joecoolfrog wrote:
stringybeany wrote:
joecoolfrog wrote:...these strategies will not work well against competent players...


No kidding.

I noticed very few competent players as I worked my way through the privates.

BEGINNERS ESCALATING:

BEGINNERS

DEADBEATS

SUICIDES

I may have seen one or two effective blocks in my first 75 games. Maybe.

So let's please stay on topic and focus on a "simple strategy that will help the beginner through their first 50 games."

If you have alternatives that will be effective IN THAT CONTEXT, then speak up.

Thanks


I consider your premise to be completely wrong, if you get into bad habits in your first 50 games then you will struggle to change when you play better opponents. Thats why so many players hit a block when they get to 2100 points, escalating is not flat rate with bigger armies it is a completely different game. The best escalating players on this site learnt the basics well and honed their strategies as they moved through the ranks,they did not suddenly get to a certain point and then change their method. What was good enough for the great escalating players like maniacmath,genghis khan and comic boy is good enough for me.


I am not sure Frog... I did experiance an Epiphany whilst playing escalator. I was thrown in with 2 specialists (no names, Orange is cocky enough... damn!) and from playing in only around 5 games, i altered my entire tactic from gravitating towards bonus's, to the more accepted high level method.
The problem is if you are playing the high level method (without tailoring) in a low ranking game this is a long way from exclusively the most effective strategy.
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Postby wacicha on Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:48 am

This is taken from another thread that use to be a sticky.




---------------- THIS IS FOR NEW PLAYERS COMING INTO FORUM LOOKING FOR HELP

Try to stay away from freestyle games and wierd maps till you are a veteran of many games.

Do not play 3 or 4 person games till you have been around long enough to know the players you are getting into the game with!!

The easiest games to play and learn on I find are Classic Sequential standard escalating with either 1 fortification or unlimited fortification.

-----This is just to get you through the opening turns of that type of game after that point each turn can change the whole outcome

#1 1st turn Deploy only, Do not attack the first turn unless you have 3 out of 4 territories on the small 2 Continents

- Reason - In an Escalating game it is all about cards and men. But the cards are not as important as the men in the first 2 or 3 turns. Think of it more like you have cards but the other guy is keeping them for you.
then fortify a different spot than where you deployed if it is 1 fort or everywhere you can if it is unlimited fort.

#2 Do not ever try to take and hold Europe, North America, or Asia. (Africa is even iffy but can sometimes be done by a better player

Reason - you will be to spread out to properly hold and will spend all your men and effort retaking and fortifying the larger continents and will not be able to take out a weaker player because you are in one area instead of building on 2 or 3 different area's around the map

#3 Everytime you log into game you need to know who is the weakest player and do they have enough cards to be worth taking out

The easiest way to do this is to read the forum in General Discussions for a download called Monkey Script. It Keeps count of Cards, Men, and Countries of each Player you are playing in that game.


Forum - the forum is a tool that you can use. You need to use this tool for all the great information it can give you.

#2In a Flat rate game Men are very important.

In first 3 rounds you need to deploy stratigically and attack softly, if at all. softly means attack once if you do not win the territory then stop attacking. The only real reason you would attack is to take over the small continents because you have 3 of the territories. You may also try for Africa after the 3rd or 4th turn, if you own 3 or 4 of the african continent. More players lose tring to replace men that have been lost trying to hold the borders of North America or Europe, and rarely does any one hold Asia.
Flat rate is important to own each territory you have in the begining. What I mean is are you gonna attack a guy with 4 guys or 1 guy so if you can't get a small continent find 3 territorie to gether and start building from there deploy 1 on each and don't attack but maybe 2 out of 3 turns the first few turns and when you tyrn in a set it is ok to turn in a ed set if you own 2 of the card territories or have to turn them in cause you have 5 cards.

#3 no card game it is about territories and men again you need to own each territory you have leaving none with 1 man unless you got a shot at the small er territories but truth to tell in non card games you could end up owning usa or europe never try for asia ynless you own aussie it will caost to many of their men to breach yur borders and men do not replace easy in a non card game
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Postby stringybeany on Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:00 am

joecoolfrog wrote:I consider your premise to be completely wrong, if you get into bad habits in your first 50 games then you will struggle to change when you play better opponents. Thats why so many players hit a block when they get to 2100 points, escalating is not flat rate with bigger armies it is a completely different game. The best escalating players on this site learnt the basics well and honed their strategies as they moved through the ranks,they did not suddenly get to a certain point and then change their method. What was good enough for the great escalating players like maniacmath,genghis khan and comic boy is good enough for me.


Try a block in a beginners' game and see what will likely happen. Chances are you won't get the high-level response. So you would advise to take the high road anyway and likely lose?

What works at the lowest levels won't work at the high levels, and vice-versa, of course. You do have to adapt as you move up.
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Postby stringybeany on Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:04 am

hatchman wrote:StringyBeany, my wife started an account about a month ago, playing all escalating under my fine supervision. We noticed exactly what DiM was referring to: guys going nuts trying to take and break continents. The result? Weak players all over the place holding lots of cards :D I advised my wife to steer well clear of all the silliness and just attack 1s to get cards. Then cash and kill weaker guys holding 4 or 5 cards. It worked beautifully in most cases - sometimes she didn't even have to cash to kill because she had built up so much strength while the other guys went nuts against each other and didn't notice LOL. The result so far? After 16 games she has 1470 points or something...


exactly! so at that level you must adopt a strategy that will lead to winning at that level and be prepared to modify as you move up.

This again leads me back to my original purpose: Provide a strategy for beginners that will help them get started.

Of course that's all spelled out in the OP, but apparently with insufficient clarity.

Maybe the simplest strategy for beginners is just what your wife did. "Stay the hell out of the way and let all the noobs kill each other". (Which you'll note is somewhat built into my proposed strategy)
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Postby wicked on Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:08 am

Having played all ranks here, I can say that beginners do play escalating much differently and that one strategy might not work for all. I've seen esc. played like a flat rate game where one person was allowed to get strong so that it never got to a point where cards mattered. The old "sit back and build up til the cards are high value" strategy won't work if someone is getting double men for holding continents and no one keeps them in check.
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Postby stringybeany on Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:13 am

dp
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Postby jiminski on Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:22 am

Well as we can see ... advice on this one is like asking for strategies on child-rearing from 4 generations of mothers at a family wedding!

'wrap it up tight so he can;t move his arms, put the kid down and let it scream.. it'll tire eventually!'
'you need to give love immediately... or they will be mal-adjusted.. Dr Spock says.....'

so my advice is:

Take the basics (avoid wasting troops and take singles for cards) and then learn by what other people do, not what they say.
Take each game differently because even a General can be like a shark in a puddle.
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Postby banana_hammocks on Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:20 am

The way i play escalating (whether it is right or wrong, although i did win iron man II an escalating tourney) is basically to try and make sure you are one of the strongest players in terms of number of troops. Now this may seem obvious, but many players that i have played against (ranging from all ranks) will try to get bonuses especially south america and australia, then they will fight over africa and middle ground wasting troops. Only break bonuses if you have to e.g. europe or n. america, and even then try to make others break it.

Meanwhile i've been taking the unimportant territories in norther asia and northen america, generally against 1 troop and leaving my troops as evenly spread as possible. Then once the cashes get to a reasonable level (10+) look to fortify your troops to one place at the end of your go when you have 4 cards. Then on your next go try to take everyone out if possible.

Of course it entirely depends on the situation and if you have an easy continent go for it, but don't feel you need to win it back at all costs if you lose it.
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Postby negoeien on Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:40 am

well what an heated discussion alright.
I can sense some sensibility here :d.
But I have to agree with chess but as I understand this is for newbies only we must'nt talk about blocks.

1) Evryone is right with attacking only one's which is the way to go. Further more I played a lot of newbies( I don't like to use the word NOOB)
because I always start some public games escalating unlimited and many Inexperienced players join.
Now what I have seen , it's sometimes advisable to take a continent but not when another player is interested in it. Especially on other maps then the classic one, there it isn't advisable to take a continent!

2) About attacking the strongest please guys, don't!!! Don't waste armies on them only if it a as smart player. You just have to take the weaker players out and midcash then take the following person. The advantage in the proces is that with the last cash ou can easily kill or overpower the strongest player.

3) I do not critiscize anyone just pointing out my view of the esc game with mostly new players. I have a lot of exp with that. You don't have to be the strongest player but have more armies then the weakest players which is not to hard

4) This method isn't 100% proof because erratic moves of some of the new players but it works fairly well.

GRtz
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Postby stringybeany on Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:19 pm

There won't be a consensus on any particular strategy, and there doesn't need to be. The purpose again is to provide a simple strategy that will serve to get an escalating/unlimited/6-player beginner started here at CC.

The strategy should serve to:

A: avoid erratic play commonly found in beginner games.
B: cope with deadbeat play also common in beginner games.
C: build higher quality into beginner games by introducing sound concepts.

Sounds easy, but try and condense it down into a simple set of rules that will accommodate the majority of scenarios (maybe a very slim majority).

Such procedures should be tidied up and stickied, which was once the case?

Why did they get dropped?
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Weak kill shots in esc = Loser
Mind your troop count and look ahead!
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Postby RobinJ on Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:22 pm

I agree with just about everyone in here but to varying extents. Personally:

Round 1: if you are first to go then just deploy unless a small continent is staring you right in the face. Otherwise it is better to keep the 3 armies and go behind a card. If going last, generally look for a 1 to attack and do it.

Next few rounds: Depends on the size of map but usually fairly sedate. Try not to be the weakest by just staying out of everybody's way and spreading your armies. Try to cash in last for the highest value and start looking for an elimination target. Get into position.

After first cash: Time to station a large portion of your troops by the weakest player, blocking him off if necessary. If it's worth the risk (it usually is if you can maintain a chain reaction. If not then it requires more thought) then go for the elimination once you have your second set. Hoepfully, you can get a chain reaction going but otherwise make sure that you can end the game in a couple of rounds. It's no good to make a couple of eliminations and leave the next player with a cash of 20+.


Really that's as basic a strategy as you can get and it should be fairly effective against lower ranks. It certainly worked for me.
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Postby jiminski on Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:07 pm

stringybeany wrote:There won't be a consensus on any particular strategy, and there doesn't need to be. The purpose again is to provide a simple strategy that will serve to get an escalating/unlimited/6-player beginner started here at CC.



yeap! the thing is that Escalator is so easy and yet so complex!

this is so perfectly illustrated by the confusion witnessed in this thread!

that is why the most pure teacher of the discipline should advise an open mind not a closed one.

the best teacher is a man named Wacicha! he has no axe to grind and no ego to buff!
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Postby joecoolfrog on Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:40 pm

stringybeany wrote:
joecoolfrog wrote:I consider your premise to be completely wrong, if you get into bad habits in your first 50 games then you will struggle to change when you play better opponents. Thats why so many players hit a block when they get to 2100 points, escalating is not flat rate with bigger armies it is a completely different game. The best escalating players on this site learnt the basics well and honed their strategies as they moved through the ranks,they did not suddenly get to a certain point and then change their method. What was good enough for the great escalating players like maniacmath,genghis khan and comic boy is good enough for me.


Try a block in a beginners' game and see what will likely happen. Chances are you won't get the high-level response. So you would advise to take the high road anyway and likely lose?

What works at the lowest levels won't work at the high levels, and vice-versa, of course. You do have to adapt as you move up.


I agree that blocks dont work well in beginner games which is why I didnt include them in my lists of basics, be nice if you read the posts properly instead of being so defensive. I reckon the Wachica advice is pretty sound for brand new escalating players, then again most of his advice is pretty sound :D
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