Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby t-o-m on Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:45 pm

A good played suicided me just yesterday.

Mbohn, i was quite shocked.
Then he accused me of suiciding him for HIM autoing 127 of my guys with his 74.
Threw the game away to the other player, obviously.
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby Schwournes on Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:53 pm

I would've thought that Kamikaze (well not in the sense I mean - because it is the opposite of suiciding) wouldn't be an attempt to trash the game, but more as a vain attempt to stay in the game until you get a set of cards or something...But not completely recklessly as in 1 1 1 1 1 because then you would just get knocked out straight away
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby FabledIntegral on Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:15 pm

Schwournes wrote:I would've thought that Kamikaze (well not in the sense I mean - because it is the opposite of suiciding) wouldn't be an attempt to trash the game, but more as a vain attempt to stay in the game until you get a set of cards or something...But not completely recklessly as in 1 1 1 1 1 because then you would just get knocked out straight away


Kamikaze to me sounds like "in a desperate attempt, take someone else out with you to do as much dmg to them as possible. STILL a suicide, obviously, by definition."

If you want to stay in the game until you got a set of cards, why in the world would you attack at ALL except for killing a single army for a card? Why would you waste any more armies? What does that possibly accomplish? It can't help you at all... unless you want to get really technical and try to pull some attackers advantage BS out. But in the end - it just makes you a bigger target for the OTHER players to kill you... so the attackers advantage point goes to hell...
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby Meor on Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:52 am

I haven't been on CC for long at all, but I have played a lot of RISK, and suicide is always a terrible move, not only because it destroys the strategy of the game, but because you eliminate any chance of winning. That said however, if you are being cornered taking a big unit stack and breaking through an opponents defenses in order to establish a stronger position can be a decent move, provided you don't use up all your units doing it. It is still a huge risk though.
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby FabledIntegral on Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:58 am

Meor wrote:I haven't been on CC for long at all, but I have played a lot of RISK, and suicide is always a terrible move, not only because it destroys the strategy of the game, but because you eliminate any chance of winning. That said however, if you are being cornered taking a big unit stack and breaking through an opponents defenses in order to establish a stronger position can be a decent move, provided you don't use up all your units doing it. It is still a huge risk though.


Very, VERY VERY rarily is this true, as classic risk is played escalating style.
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby Hotdoggie on Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:10 am

Kamikazi = bad

that sums it up...
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby Meor on Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:31 am

FabledIntegral wrote:
Meor wrote:I haven't been on CC for long at all, but I have played a lot of RISK, and suicide is always a terrible move, not only because it destroys the strategy of the game, but because you eliminate any chance of winning. That said however, if you are being cornered taking a big unit stack and breaking through an opponents defenses in order to establish a stronger position can be a decent move, provided you don't use up all your units doing it. It is still a huge risk though.


Very, VERY VERY rarily is this true, as classic risk is played escalating style.


I have seen it work though, and the player doing has come back to win, albeit you have to do it fairly early on. Definitely a bad move in 1v1. And it probably flops more often than it works...but as a last ditch strategy, I wouldn't call it a cheap move or bad strategy.
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby max is gr8 on Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:23 pm

I suicided once against a player I had a chance of beating. After I got him down to one territ with one unit and failed (in escalating game) I suicided because I was so annoyed, because the next players turn he already had a set then would kill the player and get another set etc.
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby OliverFA on Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:46 pm

Well... if someone almost killed you and ruined the game for you, I think is completely legitimate to turn back the favor and ruin the game for him.
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby FabledIntegral on Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:46 pm

OliverFA wrote:Well... if someone almost killed you and ruined the game for you, I think is completely legitimate to turn back the favor and ruin the game for him.


That... is a completely different matter - I do that all the time.
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby max is gr8 on Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:27 am

lolz
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby Rocketry on Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:06 pm

Noslen wrote:Okay so here's the real question:

When I am down facing overwhelming odds I like to take my biggest stack and just blow through the opponent in the hope that I might actually get lucky. This can sometimes take away valuable bonuses and punch holes in the opponent's defence that others might be able to use.

So is this a good idea or bad idea?


Looking at your rank mate, I would suggest not. Anyway, back to the kitchen....

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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby White Moose on Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:10 pm

Suiciding in a game when you have no chance of winning is plain stupid.

Having a small chance of success and going for it as a last oppertunity to win, is just fine. You should always try to win, still if its a small chance.

Just my thoughts :=)
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby JJAPS2 on Sat Sep 13, 2008 12:41 pm

If you're playing a non-team game, then kamikaze is a stupid move 100% of the time. It's almost always useless, especially in 1vs1, and if the circumstances are bad enough, may cause a accusation of hidden alliance.

However, a team atmosphere is a lot different. After your kamikaze, your friend can give you some of his reinforcements, therby still giving you a safe haven, while putting a block on your opponent. Of corse, this depends on the circumstances, and kamikaze may be stupid in this situation anyway. Just a thought.
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby Noslen on Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:37 pm

Okay...so I think it is agreed that the strategy isn't a strategy at all and thus just a bad move....so here's to the reason I asked.

I was told by a high ranking person on CC that this is a good strategy. Having played RISK irl and seeing how the games are played here I disagreed, however, my rank here does reflect that I haven't had much luck on CC yet (btw I don't care what higher ranks think luck is at least 50% of CC and Risk) which is why I asked.

Thanks for the opinions. I think that maybe there's a few people offering advice that really shouldn't.
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby FabledIntegral on Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:16 pm

Noslen wrote:Okay...so I think it is agreed that the strategy isn't a strategy at all and thus just a bad move....so here's to the reason I asked.

I was told by a high ranking person on CC that this is a good strategy. Having played RISK irl and seeing how the games are played here I disagreed, however, my rank here does reflect that I haven't had much luck on CC yet (btw I don't care what higher ranks think luck is at least 50% of CC and Risk) which is why I asked.

Thanks for the opinions. I think that maybe there's a few people offering advice that really shouldn't.


If you think luck is 50% then it's peculiar how some people have gotten to such high ranks in the first place - if luck was 50% surely you'd have a higher score than cook?

Game is all about probability and odds - which is where the luck factors in. However - if you're playing escalating games with 8-players and you're trying to take Oceania when other people have deployed there - it's not luck that's causing you to lose, it's your strategy.
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby Noslen on Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:22 am

I very much agree that strategy is extremely important. Bad strategy can cause you to lose even if luck is on your side and good strategy save youo even when luck isn't on side.

That said because CC works with random numbers (after all it is the only way it can work) it is different from risk. You see it is possible to 'learn' how to throw dice in your favour, e.g. a flick of the wrist or the angle at which they are thrown can help get a favourable result. Therefore, strategy is a larger part of RL games. However, with CC because you can't 'learn' to throw the dice in a favourable way, you must rely on luck more than anything else. (odds don't come into it when you have a random number generator, you see with a random generator then it is possible to get any combinations and as such the odds are truly astronomical)

In short I agree that I am still using bad tactics on CC, because I have not yet found a way to adapt good risk techniques to these games.
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby FabledIntegral on Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:28 am

Noslen wrote:I very much agree that strategy is extremely important. Bad strategy can cause you to lose even if luck is on your side and good strategy save youo even when luck isn't on side.

That said because CC works with random numbers (after all it is the only way it can work) it is different from risk. You see it is possible to 'learn' how to throw dice in your favour, e.g. a flick of the wrist or the angle at which they are thrown can help get a favourable result. Therefore, strategy is a larger part of RL games. However, with CC because you can't 'learn' to throw the dice in a favourable way, you must rely on luck more than anything else. (odds don't come into it when you have a random number generator, you see with a random generator then it is possible to get any combinations and as such the odds are truly astronomical)

In short I agree that I am still using bad tactics on CC, because I have not yet found a way to adapt good risk techniques to these games.


First of all - whatever you're talking about manipulating the dice is nothing more than cheating in RISK.

Concerning this site - it IS all about playing the odds... you're not making sense. First it depends on strategy - how much you preserve your army, what your locations are, whether or not (usually not) it's smart to attempt to secure any sort of bonus armies (referring to large, escalating games)... then it's odds. "What are the chances I can kill this guy with 12 armies vs 8 armies over 5 territories." Probably - not that great. Considering you have to drop an army each time you advance - that automatically makes 5 armies useless - the first army you leave on your initial territory - the next 4 you have to drop on each one. Thus you have 7 usable armies vs 8 defending armies. Now you have to figure out which are singles vs doubles. If they are 2,2,2,1,1 - then it's going to be pretty hard since there are so many doubles defending. Then you have to take into account - if I miss the kill - will it set someone else up as a gift? What are the odds they will have if they go for the kill right now. If it's a sequential game and another person is right after you with 30 armies also bordering this player's 8 armies - you should play your odds and take the gamble simply because if you sit around and don't take the shot - someone else will get the kill...

It goes on and on - that's basics. It's all pluggin' in numbers.
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby Noslen on Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:24 pm

I'm not saying that strategy ISN't important....I accept that it is.

However, my point is that because the dice on CC relies on random number generation statistics and odds are not applicable. You can say that the odds of getting a six from one dice roll are one in six irl...however, a TRULY random number generator, like the one CC relies on doesn't stick to the odds. Rolling a 6 may still be a 1/6 chance but with each subsequent roll the odds are extended.

With the dice rolls there are around a 53% favour to the person with the larger army. However, with truly random numbers ANYTHING can happen and odds CANNOT be applied with any real measure of sucess.

So the point is that luck is a BIG part of the game.


(As for my point about 'learning' to throw dice....I didn't mean to imply that necessarily means cheating. The way a person throws a dice affects the result, for better or worse, and it is that which allows odds to be applied.)
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby FabledIntegral on Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:58 pm

Noslen wrote:I'm not saying that strategy ISN't important....I accept that it is.

However, my point is that because the dice on CC relies on random number generation statistics and odds are not applicable. You can say that the odds of getting a six from one dice roll are one in six irl...however, a TRULY random number generator, like the one CC relies on doesn't stick to the odds. Rolling a 6 may still be a 1/6 chance but with each subsequent roll the odds are extended.

With the dice rolls there are around a 53% favour to the person with the larger army. However, with truly random numbers ANYTHING can happen and odds CANNOT be applied with any real measure of sucess.

So the point is that luck is a BIG part of the game.


(As for my point about 'learning' to throw dice....I didn't mean to imply that necessarily means cheating. The way a person throws a dice affects the result, for better or worse, and it is that which allows odds to be applied.)


Incorrect - I don't know where you've taken math but it's faulty - that's what odds + probability are - the likelihood of something happening. ONLY because it's a random number generator (which don't actually exist fyi, there's no such thing as random numbers being generated in the world) can you use odds and probability to your advantage. It has nothing to do with something like a set of cards - where you can count a set sample size... it's irrelevant.

I also don't understand what you mean by 53% to the person with the larger army - that doesn't make sense. If you have 1000 vs 1001 = chances are the 1000 will win... even though it's the smaller army.
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby itsmedicineman on Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:05 am

its a very good move. Lots of people don't like it but i guess that's war. I target bully's so could care less about being on anyones ignore list. Its really quite funny listening to all these experts on how to win during a game . I pick on anyone who picks on anyone else with name calling etc and i will even set myself up for several moves before i take them out just to prove they are not the great general they thought. I will work my way up because i have no fear of reprisals its a game and there are many different ways to win. And is the victim really a victim if he asked for it by taking my country , owning to much, or just being rude to everyone because they won't play the way they want someone too. I say if you can't handle war play tiddlywinks and take all your strategy there it might work there lol. So please add me to your ignore list if you can't handle losing because i hate whinners And one more thing about the odds. If i roll six six's in row does that mean any other number would be favoured next roll? -------- Absolutely not the six has the same chance on the next roll of coming up there is no arguement.
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby medgar20 on Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:09 am

Noslen wrote:However, my point is that because the dice on CC relies on random number generation statistics and odds are not applicable. You can say that the odds of getting a six from one dice roll are one in six irl...however, a TRULY random number generator, like the one CC relies on doesn't stick to the odds. Rolling a 6 may still be a 1/6 chance but with each subsequent roll the odds are extended.


What the..? If the chances of rolling a 6 are the same then how exactly are odds and statistics "not applicable"? You're contradicting yourself and appear to have a very flawed understanding of probabilities and statistics.
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby Sentinel XIV on Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:57 pm

Haven't really read through the topic. I will say this, though. The only time I will ever suicide my armies is in an escalating game where the sets are high and the guy after me is guaranteed to sweep the board anyway. I've been lucky twice doing that, and it won me the game both times. However, if I'm in, say, a flat rate game and I'm guaranteed to not win the game, then I will not suicide. First off, the person who wins the game should have to earn it. If he wants me gone, he'll have to take whatever armies I've got left. Second, it just ruins the game for everyone.
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby FabledIntegral on Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:29 pm

itsmedicineman wrote:its a very good move. Lots of people don't like it but i guess that's war. I target bully's so could care less about being on anyones ignore list. Its really quite funny listening to all these experts on how to win during a game . I pick on anyone who picks on anyone else with name calling etc and i will even set myself up for several moves before i take them out just to prove they are not the great general they thought. I will work my way up because i have no fear of reprisals its a game and there are many different ways to win. And is the victim really a victim if he asked for it by taking my country , owning to much, or just being rude to everyone because they won't play the way they want someone too. I say if you can't handle war play tiddlywinks and take all your strategy there it might work there lol. So please add me to your ignore list if you can't handle losing because i hate whinners And one more thing about the odds. If i roll six six's in row does that mean any other number would be favoured next roll? -------- Absolutely not the six has the same chance on the next roll of coming up there is no arguement.


Very well - you're ignored. If you're a puss that can't stand other people's conversations - there's no way I'd ever want to play a game with someone of your liking. I doubt you'll ever improve kid.

Fucking hilarious how everyone refers to this game as war btw - it's a strategy game not war.
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Re: Kamikaze....is it really a good final move?

Postby Jackonell on Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:27 pm

It's not a good strategy because you are just weakening yourself. However, if you kamikaze on one player and there is distance between you and the other players they may welcome your random attacks on the first player and join in to further weaken him. This could give you a reprieve and allow you to regroup. It could also just open you up for easy pickings.

It is irritating to play with people whose attack strategies are...well...haphazard, but unless they are doing it throughout the game I think its fair. After all the point of strategy is that your opponent shouldn't predict it.
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