Tank Battle (1v1?), update, page 4.

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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?) [20/2] Pg1

Postby Oneyed on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:06 am

ViperOverLord wrote:I think it'd look better and be vertigo on the user if the tanks were going east and west.


sorry my bad english, could you explain this more? I do not understand exactly. thanks.

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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?) [20/2] Pg1

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:14 am

Oneyed wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:I think it'd look better and be vertigo on the user if the tanks were going east and west.


sorry my bad english, could you explain this more? I do not understand exactly. thanks.

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Instead of top bottom, left right orientation for the map.
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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?) [20/2] Pg1

Postby Oneyed on Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:11 am

koontz1973 wrote:
Oneyed wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:I think it'd look better and be vertigo on the user if the tanks were going east and west.


sorry my bad english, could you explain this more? I do not understand exactly. thanks.

Oneyed

Instead of top bottom, left right orientation for the map.


thanks.

I have new version in my head, just I need to clear up some things with thenobodies.

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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?) [20/2] Pg1

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:10 am

I was thinking....what if we make the tanks different enough so a player can distinguish them and into a legend you explain the attacks, maybe using images instead of words ?
Or instead, if you don't want to make the tanks different, why don't you create a set of custom army circles and again explain into the legend how the attacks works using them?
I think it could work, afterall all platoons, battalions etc etc have custom symbols and it seems to me you have good knowledge of history, so it won't be hard for you to find something to use that fits the situation. (e.g. look at wwii ardennes map by qwert)

I still strongly suggest to you to make the attacks very clear, preferably with a visual system. I understand you want to create something different, but like I already said to you, the surprise effect (i.e. the first time you play the map you lose the game) can't be used. I know the connection seems clear to you, but you have to look at them with someone else eyes and some of them are not totally clear.
For example What are the possible targets of G2T3 ? or again B2T4 and BPT3 aim to the same direction, so their targets are the same?

Now, if it was for me this map can be moved to gameplay, but i think it's better you find a system to clarify attacks now than later and find yourself in big big problems when you reach graphics. ;)

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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?) [20/2] Pg1

Postby Oneyed on Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:18 am

thenobodies80 wrote:I was thinking....what if we make the tanks different enough so a player can distinguish them and into a legend you explain the attacks, maybe using images instead of words ?


there are too much tanks to make each other different.
thenobodies80 wrote:Or instead, if you don't want to make the tanks different, why don't you create a set of custom army circles and again explain into the legend how the attacks works using them?


yes the same cloured circles could works. will look at this.
thenobodies80 wrote:I think it could work, afterall all platoons, battalions etc etc have custom symbols and it seems to me you have good knowledge of history, so it won't be hard for you to find something to use that fits the situation. (e.g. look at wwii ardennes map by qwert)


but here we need extra symbol for each tank. army circles sounds the best way, I have also one idea to use fire perimeters...
thenobodies80 wrote:I still strongly suggest to you to make the attacks very clear, preferably with a visual system. I understand you want to create something different, but like I already said to you, the surprise effect (i.e. the first time you play the map you lose the game) can't be used. I know the connection seems clear to you, but you have to look at them with someone else eyes and some of them are not totally clear.
For example What are the possible targets of G2T3 ? or again B2T4 and BPT3 aim to the same direction, so their targets are the same?


I understand what you can say. if somebody will play map for the 10th times and somebody for the 1st time he has huge disadvantage. better say low chance to win.
thenobodies80 wrote:Now, if it was for me this map can be moved to gameplay, but i think it's better you find a system to clarify attacks now than later and find yourself in big big problems when you reach graphics. ;)

Nobodies


will looking for something working.

thanks for help.

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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?) [20/2] Pg1

Postby ViperOverLord on Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:05 am

Oneyed wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:
Oneyed wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:I think it'd look better and be vertigo on the user if the tanks were going east and west.


sorry my bad english, could you explain this more? I do not understand exactly. thanks.

Oneyed

Instead of top bottom, left right orientation for the map.


thanks.

I have new version in my head, just I need to clear up some things with thenobodies.

Oneyed


I also omitted 'less.' Less vertigo on the user. Less dizzying, less disorienting if the tanks go left and right (east/west) and not up and down (north/south).
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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?) [20/2] Pg1

Postby Oneyed on Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:41 pm

ViperOverLord wrote:I also omitted 'less.' Less vertigo on the user. Less dizzying, less disorienting if the tanks go left and right (east/west) and not up and down (north/south).


I am not sure where will be difference. and I need upper and bottom part for legends. thank you for input :)

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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?) [20/2] Pg1

Postby Oneyed on Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:46 pm

new version. the idea was that map should looks as briefing map with Lieutenants notices...

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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?) [28/2] Pg2

Postby g8keepr on Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:52 pm

Looks interesting.

Just two remarks at the moment:
- what are the tank barrierrs for? Do they limit the Bombardments to the side (like GFT2 vs BFC2)? Or cant you reinforce between chassis from the same platoon (like B2C1 to B2c4)?
- what mean Platoons (same flag) +3 for each? Or does it mean you get +3 auto deploy (or additional army) if you have the leader of a platoon? you could change the text like leader has two flags and gets +3 autodeploy.

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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?) [28/2] Pg2

Postby Oneyed on Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:29 pm

g8keepr wrote:Looks interesting.


thank you.
g8keepr wrote:Just two remarks at the moment:
- what are the tank barrierrs for? Do they limit the Bombardments to the side (like GFT2 vs BFC2)? Or cant you reinforce between chassis from the same platoon (like B2C1 to B2c4)?


yes they limit bombardments. if you look at the upper legend there are shown bombardments. I will mention this in legend. something like: Tank barriers, limit bombardments.
g8keepr wrote:- what mean Platoons (same flag) +3 for each? Or does it mean you get +3 auto deploy (or additional army) if you have the leader of a platoon?


each platoon has 4 tanks with the same coloured flag. so if you hold all platoon you get +3. maybe I will correct legend here too: Platoon, 4 tanks witht he same coloured flag.
g8keepr wrote:you could change the text like leader has two flags and gets +3 autodeploy.


there are not any autodeploys. the leader is only important for using connection via streak of straps.

thanks for your input :)

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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?), update - 4.3. (Pg2)

Postby Oneyed on Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:34 pm

updated version with more explantations in legend.

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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?), update - 4.3. (Pg2)

Postby thenobodies80 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:02 pm

Very nice update, I think we did a good step in the right direction here!
Oh btw, I didn't had an incredible long dinner, just I fell asleep on the couch after having it! :lol:

However, the new version makes everything more clear. Now bombardment are in most of cases clear and the legend helps more than the old "the direction of the cannon" system. ;)
A small advice. Looking at your bombardment schema and then at the rest of the map i do not see a tank that can bombard the square next to it, so maybe that indication in the legend can be refined a bit more because actually it sounds like tank can bombard like knights on chess. Specially if you look at G1T4-B1C4. Looking at the schema it seems that G1T4 is able to "circumvent" the barriers, see the spoiler
show

I understand your system...the tank is supposed to "advance" before to fire and so it will have to pass the barrier and it can't, but I bet many will complain because they thought bombardments was possible for the very same reason you can see on the image in the spoiler!

Then, change the font, the current one is small and very hard to read. About platoon flags i suggest you to use more visible colors: red-green-blue-yellow? or at least make the black one more visible.

Top legend, where you say "holding firing tower - impossible to bombard targets from platoon bombardable from this tower"...sorry what does it mean? maybe you mean that the tower can't bombard tanks that are part of the same platoon? So G1T3 can't bombard G1C4 because it's the same platoon?
And in that case you can have not clear situations, like G2T3 - G1C2, it's not the same platoon, but i think you don't want to make possible for the former to bombard the latter, right?
In that case isn't simpler to say that "you can bombard only enemy tanks"? obviously always following the rules explained into the legend.

Then, if all the "attacks" are just bombardments and this will be a 1vs1 map, i think you can hold max 2 platoons, right? In this case where you say +1 every 4 tanks you mean any 4 tanks? so maybe 2 G1 tanks and 2 G2 tanks? or do you mean +1 for 4 tanks of the same platoon? It doesn't change so much considering the total amount of troops you can receive, but it makes a big difference while you're playing, this because it's simpler to hold 4 random tanks than hold an entire platoon.

Finally, where you specify the conditional border, you can easily say that it's "valid only if you hold the platoon leader tank", being the tank made by a tower and a chassis. I think it's more clear than the current phrase.

Now, I seriously think it's time for me to go to sleep (i realized now that it's 3am :shock: ) and for this map it's time for a draft stamp and start to focus the discussion on gameplay. But the draft stamp is koontz business so I leave to him the final say on it!

Good work, i really think you're showing yourself as a very good mapmaker :)
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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?), update - 4.3. (Pg2)

Postby Oneyed on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:50 am

thenobodies80 wrote:Oh btw, I didn't had an incredible long dinner, just I fell asleep on the couch after having it! :lol:


:lol: it would be world record - 5 hours dinner :)
thenobodies80 wrote:A small advice. Looking at your bombardment schema and then at the rest of the map i do not see a tank that can bombard the square next to it, so maybe that indication in the legend can be refined a bit more because actually it sounds like tank can bombard like knights on chess. Specially if you look at G1T4-B1C4. Looking at the schema it seems that G1T4 is able to "circumvent" the barriers, see the spoiler
show

I understand your system...the tank is supposed to "advance" before to fire and so it will have to pass the barrier and it can't, but I bet many will complain because they thought bombardments was possible for the very same reason you can see on the image in the spoiler!


but my idea about bombardments is as you shown in spoiler. so you have this right, only barriers which are dirrect on the tanks side limit bombardments. I have idea how to change this, so tanks will not bombard from side, but again you have it right.
thenobodies80 wrote:Then, change the font, the current one is small and very hard to read. About platoon flags i suggest you to use more visible colors: red-green-blue-yellow? or at least make the black one more visible.


ok for both.
thenobodies80 wrote:Top legend, where you say "holding firing tower - impossible to bombard targets from platoon bombardable from this tower"...sorry what does it mean? maybe you mean that the tower can't bombard tanks that are part of the same platoon? So G1T3 can't bombard G1C4 because it's the same platoon?


no. I meant that, hm. example helps more as my poor English: G1T4 bombards B1T1, B1C1 but when you will hold GFT1 you can not bombard B1T1, B1C1 from G1T4.
thenobodies80 wrote:And in that case you can have not clear situations, like G2T3 - G1C2, it's not the same platoon, but i think you don't want to make possible for the former to bombard the latter, right?


yes. but I can not see problem that this should valids for both versions (1, can not bombard from platoon. 2, can not bombard from former.) everything depends what will be better for gameplay. what do you think?
thenobodies80 wrote:In that case isn't simpler to say that "you can bombard only enemy tanks"? obviously always following the rules explained into the legend.


it is mentioned in legend that Towers can bombard enemies Towers and Chassis. but the legend is the hardest thing from me, so I will follow all advices here :)
thenobodies80 wrote:Then, if all the "attacks" are just bombardments and this will be a 1vs1 map, i think you can hold max 2 platoons, right? In this case where you say +1 every 4 tanks you mean any 4 tanks? so maybe 2 G1 tanks and 2 G2 tanks? or do you mean +1 for 4 tanks of the same platoon? It doesn't change so much considering the total amount of troops you can receive, but it makes a big difference while you're playing, this because it's simpler to hold 4 random tanks than hold an entire platoon.


oops, my bad. there will be two bonuses:
+1 for ANY 4 tanks.
+3 for each Platoon
thenobodies80 wrote:Finally, where you specify the conditional border, you can easily say that it's "valid only if you hold the platoon leader tank", being the tank made by a tower and a chassis. I think it's more clear than the current phrase.


ok.
thenobodies80 wrote:Good work, i really think you're showing yourself as a very good mapmaker :)


thanks, but there is long way infront of me :)

thanks nobodies.

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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?), update - 4.3. (Pg2)

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:20 am

Oneyed wrote: thenobodies80 wrote:Top legend, where you say "holding firing tower - impossible to bombard targets from platoon bombardable from this tower"...sorry what does it mean? maybe you mean that the tower can't bombard tanks that are part of the same platoon? So G1T3 can't bombard G1C4 because it's the same platoon?

no. I meant that, hm. example helps more as my poor English: G1T4 bombards B1T1, B1C1 but when you will hold GFT1 you can not bombard B1T1, B1C1 from G1T4.


Aaaah, now i got it! My fault here, I didn't noticed the importance of the word, I saw that some towers have the flash on the map, but i thought only to a graphics embellishment. Though, it's not a so clear at glance...
However, your explanation in the legend must be very very clear because this concept is important during the game.
So maybe something like: "If you hold a platoon firing tower, the other towers of the same platoon can no longer bombard the targets that the two towers have in common" or maybe "If you hold the firing tower and any other tower of the same platoon, the targets in common can be bombarded only by the firing tower".

Oneyed wrote: thenobodies80 wrote:And in that case you can have not clear situations, like G2T3 - G1C2, it's not the same platoon, but i think you don't want to make possible for the former to bombard the latter, right?

yes. but I can not see problem that this should valids for both versions (1, can not bombard from platoon. 2, can not bombard from former.) everything depends what will be better for gameplay. what do you think?


I think you should decide how the map must start and play.
This is important because on the map you have only bombardments between platoons and no regular connections (attacks).
So it's clear that where the players will start is very very important. Imo there should be a way for players to move also horizontally on the map, on the contrary if a platoon or two, are bombarded to the death (so reverted to all neutral) you can have a stall problem. Imagine what the players can do if player 1 controls B1 platoon, player 2 controls G2 platton and instead platoon B2 and G1 are bombarded to neutral. They can do nothing and the game can't end!

I assume you want to have player 1 on one side and player 2 to the others, so you will have 2 set of starting position, but also in this case i strongly suggest a way for the players to move from a platoon to another if on the same side (B1<->B2 and G1<->G2)

As said, i think you should start to discuss gameplay, the idea is clear, the draft is certainly a working draft...oh btw a last thing....koontz gave a good suggestion about rotating the battlefield, i think you should do what he said, it's much better that layout to fit the current UI. ;)

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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?), update - 4.3. (Pg2)

Postby Oneyed on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:39 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:Aaaah, now i got it! My fault here, I didn't noticed the importance of the word, I saw that some towers have the flash on the map, but i thought only to a graphics embellishment. Though, it's not a so clear at glance...
However, your explanation in the legend must be very very clear because this concept is important during the game.
So maybe something like: "If you hold a platoon firing tower, the other towers of the same platoon can no longer bombard the targets that the two towers have in common" or maybe "If you hold the firing tower and any other tower of the same platoon, the targets in common can be bombarded only by the firing tower".


the problem here, but I hope not big, is that tanks with firing towers are not part of platoons. they would be "moved" tanks from platoon.
thenobodies80 wrote:I think you should decide how the map must start and play.
This is important because on the map you have only bombardments between platoons and no regular connections (attacks).
So it's clear that where the players will start is very very important. Imo there should be a way for players to move also horizontally on the map, on the contrary if a platoon or two, are bombarded to the death (so reverted to all neutral) you can have a stall problem. Imagine what the players can do if player 1 controls B1 platoon, player 2 controls G2 platton and instead platoon B2 and G1 are bombarded to neutral. They can do nothing and the game can't end!


good point here. so there must be any connection between platoons on the same side. maybe chassis of platoon leader tanks could have connection?
thenobodies80 wrote:I assume you want to have player 1 on one side and player 2 to the others, so you will have 2 set of starting position, but also in this case i strongly suggest a way for the players to move from a platoon to another if on the same side (B1<->B2 and G1<->G2)


yes each player will start on one side.
thenobodies80 wrote:oh btw a last thing....koontz gave a good suggestion about rotating the battlefield, i think you should do what he said, it's much better that layout to fit the current UI. ;)


you mean rotate it that tanks will be from right to left?

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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?), update - 4.3. (Pg2)

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:46 pm

yes, exactly

show: example


Obviously the legend and the labels must be changed! :P
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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?), update - 4.3. (Pg2)

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:24 pm

I like the right to left battle idea.


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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?) [20/2] Pg1

Postby ViperOverLord on Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:56 pm

Oneyed wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:I also omitted 'less.' Less vertigo on the user. Less dizzying, less disorienting if the tanks go left and right (east/west) and not up and down (north/south).


I am not sure where will be difference. and I need upper and bottom part for legends. thank you for input :)

Oneyed


For people who get dizzier, easier; it makes a big difference. You presumably don't have those types of equilibrium issues.

I know for myself, that thenobodies flip of the map made it much easier for me to take-in. You would be well advised to redo the key to accommodate that significant portion of users who would benefit. But, it is your map; so do what you want.
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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?) [20/2] Pg1

Postby Oneyed on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:05 am

ViperOverLord wrote:I also omitted 'less.' Less vertigo on the user. Less dizzying, less disorienting if the tanks go left and right (east/west) and not up and down (north/south).

koontz1973 wrote:Instead of top bottom, left right orientation for the map.

thenobodies80 wrote:oh btw a last thing....koontz gave a good suggestion about rotating the battlefield, i think you should do what he said, it's much better that layout to fit the current UI. ;)

AndyDufresne wrote:I like the right to left battle idea.


ok, ok guys. but it will not be so easy as only rotate map ;)

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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?), update - 4.3. (Pg2)

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:46 pm

Oneyed, can I get you to do me a favour and place some 88s onto the map. Not everywhere but where you would like players to start. Then I might get my head around some things.
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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?), update - 4.3. (Pg2)

Postby Oneyed on Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:42 pm

here it is, koontz :)

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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?), update - 4.3. (Pg2)

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:57 pm

Thanks Oneyed.

Top legend.
Tank barriers limit bombardments. This is fine but the symbol, can you add a couple more in a line. Reason being is no where on the map do you have a single barrier.

From what I can gather from the map and thread (please forgive me if I have this wrong and if so, please correct me), G1T4 can bombard forward in its line and to the lines left and right of it. G1T3 cannot though till the player has moved forward onto GFT1. Am I correct so far?
I take it that my tanks can attack the tanks to the left and right of me (adjacent only)?

Can you let me know if I have finally figured this out. I think you have the makings for a great map here.
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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?), update - 4.3. (Pg2)

Postby Oneyed on Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:21 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Top legend.
Tank barriers limit bombardments. This is fine but the symbol, can you add a couple more in a line. Reason being is no where on the map do you have a single barrier.


ok. good point.
koontz1973 wrote:From what I can gather from the map and thread (please forgive me if I have this wrong and if so, please correct me), G1T4 can bombard forward in its line and to the lines left and right of it. G1T3 cannot though till the player has moved forward onto GFT1. Am I correct so far?


you have right G1T4. it bombards BFC1, BFT1, (B1C1, B1T1 - only if GFT1 is not held), B1C4, BIT4.
G1T3 bombards BFC1, BFT1. and from G1C3 you can move to GFC1 if you hold G1T1/G1C1 - entire leader tank of platoon.
then GFT1 bombards B1C1, B1T1, B1C2, B1T2.
koontz1973 wrote:I take it that my tanks can attack the tanks to the left and right of me (adjacent only)?


tanks can not attack. Towers bombard enemies Towers and Chassis. Chassis can attack (word attack is not used by thenobodies advice) Chassis of the same platoon. Chassis of the same platoon are all adjacent.
koontz1973 wrote:Can you let me know if I have finally figured this out. I think you have the makings for a great map here.


thanks. I hope I explain it fine...

I will work on rotate version, but almost everything will be as it is now. I just had hard weekend :sick: :)

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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?), update - 4.3. (Pg2)

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:46 pm

Playing too many games on your first map in beta. I know the feeling.
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Re: Tank Battle (1v1?), update - 4.3. (Pg2)

Postby Oneyed on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:21 am

koontz1973 wrote:Playing too many games on your first map in beta. I know the feeling.


no, no. I play just one. but the feeling is great to see first playable map :)
it was too much alcohol :lol:

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