[Vacation - valid until August 2014] Homeworlds

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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map & Graphics Update 5/15

Postby dolomite13 on Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:00 pm

Still not stalled... I will be heading out of town for a week... I will try and post an update before that trip.

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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map & Graphics Update 5/15

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:18 pm

Did a lot of work on this over the weekend. I should have a new map update this week sometime. Please don't move me to the bin just yet.

Did you know it is really hard to make a map on a black background ;)

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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map & Graphics Update 5/15

Postby rdsrds2120 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:46 pm

dolomite13 wrote:Did a lot of work on this over the weekend. I should have a new map update this week sometime. Please don't move me to the bin just yet.

Did you know it is really hard to make a map on a black background ;)

=D13=


I'm rooting for it! =) Hoorah!

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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map & Graphics Update 5/15

Postby GeeksAreMyPeeps on Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:36 pm

dolomite13 wrote:Did a lot of work on this over the weekend. I should have a new map update this week sometime. Please don't move me to the bin just yet.

Did you know it is really hard to make a map on a black background ;)

=D13=

What program are you creating this in?

A couple suggestions:
• it's already been pointed out that there needs to be a greater link between the HW/SB/HG/AT; maybe just color coding the column to match the text would work, or at least matching the initials at the column top to the corresponding text.
• have you considered making some of the wormholes unstable, resetting to a neutral number?
• another possibility, if you want to vary the way people play, could be to make the nebula territories all live areas, starting neutral with large decay rates, with holding all of them a victory objective.

Looks great either way.
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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map & Graphics Update 5/15

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:37 am

No where near finished but a step in the right direction. I am playing around with layout still and coloring but I like where it's going.

To Do List
- Get the colors right!
- Connections need to be added to some text.
- Make every planet look unique
- Replace "A" on every system the correct letter corresponding with the map
- Add eliminated from the game text to map
- Correct nebula image for key
- Check all text and game play changes to make sure they match
- Clean up map and check territory number size (consider a letter/number edge of map grid style system)

=D13=

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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map Update 7/7

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:48 pm

Hi Dolomite,

A few thoughts for the update:

* I like the layout for the planets on the sides, I think it looks like a nice design

* I wonder if a shade of light blue may work better for Sci-Tech, since the faded yellow and orange look fairly similar.

* I wonder if the tech names on the top left diagram would look better in their tech colours, rather than the same colour as Homeworld.

* The Wormholes description is nicely worded, good work!

* Nebula -- "themap" needs a space in between "the" and "map"

* Sci-Tech -- Last description, "rom" should be "from"

* Sci-Tech (Terra-forming) -- If there's space, specifying it's a deployable bonus may make it a bit more clear to site newbies who don't know conditional autodeploys aren't possible. Otherwise, since the Homeworld's give an autodeploy bonus, some newer players may think it's an additional 3 auto deploy per homeworld.

* Sci-Tech (Hyperwarp) -- "intreased" should be "increased"

* Starbase -- "Coresponding" should be "corresponding" and "ajacent" should be "adjacent"


Overall everything looks like it's coming along quite nicely, keep up the great work :)
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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map Update 7/7

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:04 pm

I'll probably have a much cleaner map ready to post this weekend sometime. Thanks Tanarri =)

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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map Update 7/7

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:21 am

No problem dolomite, I'm always happy to help with maps that have unique gameplay features. It just so happens many of the ones I come across in the little time I spend in the foundry these days are done by you. Thanks for all the great maps and I look forward to playing this on Battle Royale in the future.
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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map Update 7/7

Postby dolomite13 on Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:04 am

And we have an update...

I will turn my attention to the map hex grid area next.

=D13=

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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map Update 7/26

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:35 am

The map's coming along quite nicely and looking great. Good work dolomite :)

There's only a few typos that pop out, which include:

* Under Starbase, sysem should be system

* Under Wormhole, bonbardments should be bombardments

* Under Nebula, impassible should be impassable

Other than that, for the last few revisions I've been noticing some inconsistencies with the hex numbering around the right side of the nebula, but I'm guessing this is what you meant when you mentioned taking care of the hex grid next.
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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map Update 7/26

Postby dolomite13 on Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:28 pm

Thanks I'll make those fixes when I work on the hex grid area this weekend.

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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map Update 7/26

Postby OliverFA on Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:46 pm

This map is great with a really good concept and lots of potential. Congratulations! I trully like it! =D>

There is however what in my humble opinion is a big, big issue. Hypergate / Hyperwarp jumps are too big. Look for example to sector 605, with hyperwarp (radius 5) more than half of the map can be accessed with a single move. That's way too much! The solution is to either reduce hypergate/hyperwarp radius or increase the number of sectors, even better if both things can be done.

Other suggestions that I think could be interesting and make the map even better:

Instead of making all the techs the same, what about having increasing tech levels that gets unlocked by acumulating several techs from several homeworlds? Let's see an example:

Terraforming:
- With 1 tech: +1 per world
- With 2 techs: +2 per world
- With 4 techs: +3 per world
- With 8 techs: +4 per world
- with 16 techs: +5 per world

So the tech would be the way to enhance income from planets. I would remove the income from space sectors. The resources are on planets, not at the outer space.

About hypergates, I would make them work together forming a network. So the more hypergates the more you can jump:
- With 1 hypergate: Enables space travel (the hypergate becomes adjacent to its home sector)
- With 2 hypergates: Sectors at distance 2 are accesible through the hypergate. (No real difference as they can be also accesed through the home sector "normal" adjacencies)
- With 8 hypergates: Sectors at distance 3 ""
- with 16 hypergates: Sectors at distance 4 ""

Starbase: +1 autodeploy. Homeworld is adjacent to starbase but starbase is not adjacent to anything. Can bombard its own sector. Think about it like a last line of defence.

The aim of those changes is to make the "home territories" important during the whole game. It's important how many of them each player has, and encourages players to conquer all four territories and not just the planet.

Currently there are 130 sectors. I think a few more would make the game more interesting. Ideally, if homeworlds could be 3 sectors away from each other instead of 2, I think that would make things more interesting.

Also, I know that's a lot of work, but making the geography less symetrical would make the map more interesting Some worlds closer, some worlds a bit more far, some areas with more wormholes, some with less wormholes. And make wormholes killer neutrals, which seems more in theme with what a wormhole is supposed to be.

Those are my humble suggestions to make this map even better. Cheers.
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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map Update 7/26

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:01 pm

Wow that's a lot and along the lines of what I was already thinking =)

OliverFA wrote:This map is great with a really good concept and lots of potential. Congratulations! I trully like it! =D>

There is however what in my humble opinion is a big, big issue. Hypergate / Hyperwarp jumps are too big. Look for example to sector 605, with hyperwarp (radius 5) more than half of the map can be accessed with a single move. That's way too much! The solution is to either reduce hypergate/hyperwarp radius or increase the number of sectors, even better if both things can be done.


Agreed. Decreasing distance is favored over more territories as I already slimmed it down at a foundry request.

OliverFA wrote:
Other suggestions that I think could be interesting and make the map even better:

Instead of making all the techs the same, what about having increasing tech levels that gets unlocked by acumulating several techs from several homeworlds? Let's see an example:

Terraforming:
- With 1 tech: +1 per world
- With 2 techs: +2 per world
- With 4 techs: +3 per world
- With 8 techs: +4 per world
- with 16 techs: +5 per world

So the tech would be the way to enhance income from planets. I would remove the income from space sectors. The resources are on planets, not at the outer space.


I agree and I love the numbers you came up with.

OliverFA wrote:About hypergates, I would make them work together forming a network. So the more hypergates the more you can jump:
- With 1 hypergate: Enables space travel (the hypergate becomes adjacent to its home sector)
- With 2 hypergates: Sectors at distance 2 are accesible through the hypergate. (No real difference as they can be also accesed through the home sector "normal" adjacencies)
- With 8 hypergates: Sectors at distance 3 ""
- with 16 hypergates: Sectors at distance 4 ""


I like it but I like a number that's a bit different. You can already attack from one sector to a neighboring sector. 2 hypergates gives you range 2, 8 gives you +3 which will only allow you to attack system sector to system sector to systems on other side of wormholes as no other systems are at 3 so "research" will be valuable at this point. And 4 at 14 which is slightly more than 1/2 to get that extra range.

OliverFA wrote:
Starbase: +1 autodeploy. Homeworld is adjacent to starbase but starbase is not adjacent to anything. Can bombard its own sector. Think about it like a last line of defence.


I like that its the last line of defense so it should be limited to defense of its system sector but troops could be stationed there to retake the homeworld, do research or build hypergates so assaulting those would make sense from the starbase.

OliverFA wrote:The aim of those changes is to make the "home territories" important during the whole game. It's important how many of them each player has, and encourages players to conquer all four territories and not just the planet.


I agree

OliverFA wrote:Currently there are 130 sectors. I think a few more would make the game more interesting. Ideally, if homeworlds could be 3 sectors away from each other instead of 2, I think that would make things more interesting.

Also, I know that's a lot of work, but making the geography less symetrical would make the map more interesting Some worlds closer, some worlds a bit more far, some areas with more wormholes, some with less wormholes.


I will look at doing that but I was trying to make all positions start on equal footing or as near to equal as I could get.

OliverFA wrote:And make wormholes killer neutrals, which seems more in theme with what a wormhole is supposed to be.


Love it... done =)

OliverFA wrote:Those are my humble suggestions to make this map even better. Cheers.


Thanks a bunch

=D13=
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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map Update 7/26

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:13 pm

Latest map with several game play changes.

=D13=

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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map Update 7/29

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:24 am

Thanks Oliver for the feedback, I really like your suggestions and what dolomite has done with them. It really encourages people to go kill other players, rather than sitting back and stacking. I do like Oliver's suggestion to remove the sector deployable bonus, since it does make more sense that all the resources are on the planets and not in the middle of space.
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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map Update 7/26

Postby OliverFA on Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:49 am

I am glad my suggestions were useful. I really think that Battle Royales will raise to an entire different level with this map :)

dolomite13 wrote:Agreed. Decreasing distance is favored over more territories as I already slimmed it down at a foundry request.

If territories can't be increased then decreasing the distance is ok. Anyway with the game changes the "home territories" become important and that's a de facto increase.

dolomite13 wrote:
OliverFA wrote:Terraforming:
- With 1 tech: +1 per world
- With 2 techs: +2 per world
- With 4 techs: +3 per world
- With 8 techs: +4 per world
- with 16 techs: +5 per world

So the tech would be the way to enhance income from planets. I would remove the income from space sectors. The resources are on planets, not at the outer space.

I agree and I love the numbers you came up with.

Glad you liked it. They are intended to create a snowball effect slow at first and faster later. However, with 26 homeworlds there can still be 6 players with 4 techs and 3 players with 8 techs, which makes room for bigger super-power collision at the end game if two or three players do exceptionally well.

dolomite13 wrote:
OliverFA wrote:About hypergates, I would make them work together forming a network. So the more hypergates the more you can jump:
- With 1 hypergate: Enables space travel (the hypergate becomes adjacent to its home sector)
- With 2 hypergates: Sectors at distance 2 are accesible through the hypergate. (No real difference as they can be also accesed through the home sector "normal" adjacencies)
- With 8 hypergates: Sectors at distance 3 ""
- with 16 hypergates: Sectors at distance 4 ""

I like it but I like a number that's a bit different. You can already attack from one sector to a neighboring sector. 2 hypergates gives you range 2, 8 gives you +3 which will only allow you to attack system sector to system sector to systems on other side of wormholes as no other systems are at 3 so "research" will be valuable at this point. And 4 at 14 which is slightly more than 1/2 to get that extra range.

Just to make sure that we measure distances in the same way: Which is the distance between 602 and 604? Is it 2 or 3? I thougt it was 2, but reading your explanation it looks like you consider it to be 3.

dolomite13 wrote:
OliverFA wrote:Starbase: +1 autodeploy. Homeworld is adjacent to starbase but starbase is not adjacent to anything. Can bombard its own sector. Think about it like a last line of defence.

I like that its the last line of defense so it should be limited to defense of its system sector but troops could be stationed there to retake the homeworld, do research or build hypergates so assaulting those would make sense from the starbase.

The problem is that once the adjacency from the base to the homeworld it's open, it is also open for reinforcement, so players can start reinforcing from starbases to anywhere else in their empire, and will do. If that's what you want to happen, then it's ok. In any case I think the +1 autodeploy would ne nice first because it adds more variety to the map (there is no autodeploy currently in the map) and second because the defensive player can chose to leave that autodeploy at the starbase.

dolomite13 wrote:
OliverFA wrote:The aim of those changes is to make the "home territories" important during the whole game. It's important how many of them each player has, and encourages players to conquer all four territories and not just the planet.

I agree

:)

dolomite13 wrote:
OliverFA wrote:Also, I know that's a lot of work, but making the geography less symetrical would make the map more interesting Some worlds closer, some worlds a bit more far, some areas with more wormholes, some with less wormholes.
I will look at doing that but I was trying to make all positions start on equal footing or as near to equal as I could get.

That makes sense. However, I think that equality of opportunity could still be conserved with a less symetrical map.

Let's say for example that A moves to 301 and D moves to 405. A is "safer" but also has a lower chance to get a second homeworld with its added income and hypergate-enabled travel. So the final result is that trading safety for added difficulty to grab higher income and capacity balances each other. On the other side D and H are now close to each other. They are a lot less safe, but they can also get higher tech sooner. Just keep the same number of home sectors and wormholes and move them a little bit. Some one hex, a couple of them two hexes, and some just don't move them.

dolomite13 wrote:
OliverFA wrote:And make wormholes killer neutrals, which seems more in theme with what a wormhole is supposed to be.

Love it... done =)

:)

dolomite13 wrote:
OliverFA wrote:Those are my humble suggestions to make this map even better. Cheers

Thanks a bunch

=D13=

Thanks for taking then into consideration :)
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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map Update 7/29

Postby OliverFA on Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:51 am

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:Thanks Oliver for the feedback, I really like your suggestions and what dolomite has done with them. It really encourages people to go kill other players, rather than sitting back and stacking. I do like Oliver's suggestion to remove the sector deployable bonus, since it does make more sense that all the resources are on the planets and not in the middle of space.


Thanks for pointing me to the right thread. :)
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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map Update 7/29

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:07 am

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:I do like Oliver's suggestion to remove the sector deployable bonus, since it does make more sense that all the resources are on the planets and not in the middle of space.


The generic bonus is so that players will also conquer the sectors of space that do not have homeworlds. Just because the sector doesn't have a homeworld doesn't mean it doesn't have asteroids or other planetoids that won't support life but could still provide some sort of materials that can be used to construct ships, starbases, etc which is why I went with a +1 for every 3 sectors. Note that this does not include the homeworld, starbase, research, or hypergate as they already have their own bonus structure and mechanics modifiers. I am open to making the bonus +1 for 4 or +1 for every 5 sectors and modifying it with research as well.

Currently I plan to have you start with your home sector (3) and your homeworld (3) which will grant 5 troops overall (+3 minimum and +2 autodeploy homeworld)

I am thinking that the starbase would start with 7, hypergate at 15, and research at 30 although those are up for discussion.

I want to make sure we have a map where no one can be eliminated on turn 1 or 2 but i would like to see 1/2 of the players eliminated by turn 20-25. I think with the escalating bonuses from conquering space as well as the research bonuses it would keep a good elimination pace thought.

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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map Update 7/26

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:47 pm

OliverFA wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
OliverFA wrote:About hypergates, I would make them work together forming a network. So the more hypergates the more you can jump:
- With 1 hypergate: Enables space travel (the hypergate becomes adjacent to its home sector)
- With 2 hypergates: Sectors at distance 2 are accesible through the hypergate. (No real difference as they can be also accesed through the home sector "normal" adjacencies)
- With 8 hypergates: Sectors at distance 3 ""
- with 16 hypergates: Sectors at distance 4 ""

I like it but I like a number that's a bit different. You can already attack from one sector to a neighboring sector. 2 hypergates gives you range 2, 8 gives you +3 which will only allow you to attack system sector to system sector to systems on other side of wormholes as no other systems are at 3 so "research" will be valuable at this point. And 4 at 14 which is slightly more than 1/2 to get that extra range.

Just to make sure that we measure distances in the same way: Which is the distance between 602 and 604? Is it 2 or 3? I thougt it was 2, but reading your explanation it looks like you consider it to be 3.

I don't count the starting sector. And only homeworld system sectors are connected not gates to gates and not gates and open space. I should probably put "terms like "system sector" in the key as well.

OliverFA wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
OliverFA wrote:Starbase: +1 autodeploy. Homeworld is adjacent to starbase but starbase is not adjacent to anything. Can bombard its own sector. Think about it like a last line of defence.

I like that its the last line of defense so it should be limited to defense of its system sector but troops could be stationed there to retake the homeworld, do research or build hypergates so assaulting those would make sense from the starbase.

The problem is that once the adjacency from the base to the homeworld it's open, it is also open for reinforcement, so players can start reinforcing from starbases to anywhere else in their empire, and will do. If that's what you want to happen, then it's ok. In any case I think the +1 autodeploy would ne nice first because it adds more variety to the map (there is no autodeploy currently in the map) and second because the defensive player can chose to leave that autodeploy at the starbase.

I think it would be ok to leave it open for reinforcements.

OliverFA wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
OliverFA wrote:Also, I know that's a lot of work, but making the geography less symetrical would make the map more interesting Some worlds closer, some worlds a bit more far, some areas with more wormholes, some with less wormholes.
I will look at doing that but I was trying to make all positions start on equal footing or as near to equal as I could get.

That makes sense. However, I think that equality of opportunity could still be conserved with a less symetrical map.

Let's say for example that A moves to 301 and D moves to 405. A is "safer" but also has a lower chance to get a second homeworld with its added income and hypergate-enabled travel. So the final result is that trading safety for added difficulty to grab higher income and capacity balances each other. On the other side D and H are now close to each other. They are a lot less safe, but they can also get higher tech sooner. Just keep the same number of home sectors and wormholes and move them a little bit. Some one hex, a couple of them two hexes, and some just don't move them.

I will take a look at moving things around a bit.
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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map Update 7/29

Postby JamesKer1 on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:15 pm

Hey just a heads up, couldn't find a post about this... Hypergate description has a typo, icreases instead of increases
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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map Update 7/29

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:28 pm

JamesKer1 wrote:Hey just a heads up, couldn't find a post about this... Hypergate description has a typo, icreases instead of increases
Thanks =)

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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map Update 7/29

Postby JamesKer1 on Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:57 pm

dolomite13 wrote:
OliverFA wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
OliverFA wrote:Also, I know that's a lot of work, but making the geography less symetrical would make the map more interesting Some worlds closer, some worlds a bit more far, some areas with more wormholes, some with less wormholes.
I will look at doing that but I was trying to make all positions start on equal footing or as near to equal as I could get.

That makes sense. However, I think that equality of opportunity could still be conserved with a less symetrical map.

Let's say for example that A moves to 301 and D moves to 405. A is "safer" but also has a lower chance to get a second homeworld with its added income and hypergate-enabled travel. So the final result is that trading safety for added difficulty to grab higher income and capacity balances each other. On the other side D and H are now close to each other. They are a lot less safe, but they can also get higher tech sooner. Just keep the same number of home sectors and wormholes and move them a little bit. Some one hex, a couple of them two hexes, and some just don't move them.

I will take a look at moving things around a bit.


Maybe make links to opposite sides of the map? Like with Alaska and Russia on Classic Map, that's the only thing I can think of to explain it :roll:
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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map Update 7/29

Postby dolomite13 on Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:34 pm

JamesKer1 wrote:Maybe make links to opposite sides of the map? Like with Alaska and Russia on Classic Map, that's the only thing I can think of to explain it :roll:


Thats what the wormholes do

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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map Update 7/29

Postby isaiah40 on Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:51 pm

Sorry for the delay, but this is now an official Battle Royal map!!!! :P =D>

So without further ado, we can hereby brand this Draft stamped!
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Re: Homeworlds - Battle Royale - Map Update 7/29

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:17 pm

Congrats dolomite! I look forward to playing this map one day, hopefully at least during the birthday celebration in January :)

BTW, I just noticed a small error in wordings. For Clone Facility, it should say 'starbase' instead of 'starbases', since there's only one starbase per system and there's a small chance it may cause confusion and make people think it makes the bonus +1 per starbase per research you own (ie. 3 starbases, 2 researches = 6 bonus).
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