[Abandoned] War of the Roses

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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Bruceswar on Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:58 pm

Better. .. stroke the text and or put an outer glow on it.
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Aleena on Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:23 am

Not sure what stroke the text mean...
But since you said it needed an outer glow - it tells me that the text is on too dark of a background and needs something to make it more visible - so I places a plaque behind each one, what do you think?


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Last edited by Aleena on Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:13 am

Aleena wrote:ok kept the size at 12 since you all wish small text - but to make it clearer - I removed the fancy text for a standard text and have it all in caps.. Can you all read it now? Any other suggestions or concerns?

This text is the right size, I think, and a good-looking font as well. Very good.

I would bold it just a smidgen. I'm not sure if you just have a choice of "bold" and "unbold" or if you can do that in gradual stages. If it's only on-or-off, I would go with bold. If you can do it by degrees, I would bold just a little bit. The reason that in places like Carlisle and Cockermouth where the word passes over the beach, it almost disappears against the camouflage of the beach.

Edit: I see you've already gone another version beyond the one that I was referring to. I was referring to
show: this version


I think that is the better version. The latest version is actually inferior. The white backgrounds beyond the words are distracting and look, well, imposed and not natural. I would go back to the previous version, and just bold the words up a bit so they're more visible. I think that's what Bruce meant by stroking the text.... darken it up a bit as if someone passed over it with another stroke of the brush.
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Aleena on Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:17 pm

Ty Dukasaur for you detailed comments wish more would give feed back like that...

I'm all ready in the middle of doing another revamp - that removes the white boxes behind the words but adds a slight glow simular as what I'm using for the unit circles...

If this next version is not better - I'll see what I can do about making the version you pointed out with bolder letters.

ty again - your advice is really helpful.
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Teflon Kris on Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:37 pm

Worth making the rivers thinner towards their source (they dont need a black outline btw), especially the Tees (which is a mere stream where you have an amazon)

On the rivers subject, if you have the Tees and Trent then you should really also have the Severn and Thames

Cities are a bit closer to real position, a bit, Leeds is currently raising many laughs though ;-) Plus, was Leeds anything in this era?
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Aleena on Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:30 pm

My map is roughly based off this map:
http://brummbar.com/brummbar/board_game ... er_Map.pdf
And I focused on the matching shields and the churches.
Though with still more limitations ever those items can not be in the exact spot.

and as you see, where they have placed Newcastle and Leeds is in a simular spot - I think these are not the phyiscal locations, yet the starting points of the Lords of those castles...

As I said before I have to make many adjustments to make everything fit - do not look apon this map as a history lesson or as a class in geography - do to size limitations and many other limitations - I am only hoping for a map that will provide a fun and challenging experience when playing. In the most part this map is a complete fiction (therefore not copy righted by anyone) Did you not notice that Scotland has fallen off this map and is now underwater? So a few cities/castles out of place is nothing in compared to what happened to Scotland. Try to just think of this map as War of the Roses if it had happened in another alternative dimension where Britain was not attached to Scotland and that many Castles where built in different areas. (The is a game and a map of fiction about a real historical war)

If I was able to make the map 5 times the size - then I'd be able to add all the cities and castles and most likely be able to put them in the right spots - there are limitations and over-all this should be about game play and experience. Try not to get hung-up on the little details....
Last edited by Aleena on Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:03 pm

DJ Teflon wrote:Cities are a bit closer to real position, a bit, Leeds is currently raising many laughs though ;-) Plus, was Leeds anything in this era?

Aleena wrote:My map is roughly based off this map:
http://brummbar.com/brummbar/board_game ... er_Map.pdf
And I focused on the matching shields and the churches.
Though with still more limitations ever those items can not be in the exact spot.

and as you see, where they have placed Newcastle and Leeds is in a simular spot - I think these are not the phyiscal locations, yet the starting points of the Lords of those castles...

What is shown there is not the city of Leeds, but Leeds Castle, which was an important Royal stronghold in those days. (south of Maidstone) It has nothing to do with the modern city of Leeds.

Not sure if there is something you can do to make this clear to people, because I'm sure that others will be confused by it as DJ was. Maybe you can call it Maidstone.

In any case, I would swap the position of London and Leeds/Maidstone. While perfect historical accuracy is impossible on this scale, I think people will expect London to be inland and Maidstone to be on the coast. Definitely the original Kingmaker map has Leeds closer to its proper position as between London and Canterbury.

As I said before I have to make many adjustments to make everything fit - do not look apon this map as a history lesson or as a class in geography - do to size limitations and many other limitations - I am only hoping for a map that will provide a fun and challenging experience when playing.

Absolutely agree! But if you can improve the accuracy somewhat, without sacrificing the gameplay, then why not, right?
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Aleena on Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:23 pm

Ty for your suggestions - I'll change the name of Leeds to Maidstone - but like the original map that I'm basing most of my map on and because I like the dynamic of it - I want London to be able to be reached by the sea. London is a Harbor and if I move it more inland then it will no longer be a Harbor.
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Aleena on Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:55 am

Click image to enlarge.
image


Fixed these issues which where addressed by the community:
Made Text Bold
Made Coventry a central prime location both as route to London as well as a great Blockade spot for the path to St. Davids. This will make Coventry more desirable to fight for.
Changed water to a more Blue color instead of a purple shade.
(Additional changes done to water was: powdered the deep sea to make it look like rippling waves, and added clear blue waters along the shores.)
Changed the colors of the Castles to better recognize the Bonus Color Block areas.
Moved all castle/port/ and church names to be directly above the Unit Qty Circle and below the area graphics - to form a more uniform look and make it easier to match name with location.
Removed the decorative shields off the Ships for they seem to confuse a few people.
Changed name of Leeds to Maidstone
Corrected Spelling on a few other locations.

This is what I came up with:
Any suggestions, comments, advice?
Last edited by Aleena on Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:24 am

Aleena, your efforts are starting to pay off - this version is better than i previously saw :)
Some things for attention if i may...
1. All ships in the west have the same name - W1 - is this intentional?

2. the black text on brown legend is hard to read - are you able to place some lighter layer behind it and offset it all, or
change the colour of the font, or place an outer glow around the text foir more visibility.

3. because of the black place names on dark blue sea it is difficult to read some names which cross from sea onto land or vice versa.
this can be fixed with an outer glow around text, or by extending the light blue coastline out to under those names and make this relatively even all around.

4. you seem to have victory conditions in three places
a. the one under the title
b. control London and 4 churches for 1 turn you win.
c. beside the title
- if the same, they should be in one place so as to not confuse players; this will also reduce the real estate these are taking up and perhaps allow more "eye space" in the legend to read it more comfortably - think about the overall design of you legend.

5. Looking at the southern region around London, there is a big advantage to anyone gaining the churches in the south, if the northern regions don't have easy access to London.
if someone gains Carlisle, Durham, York and Chester, and gets wiped out in the south they have a battle that might take some time to win while their opponent continues to fortify towards the churches and London in the south - i don't know if i am not understand this properly, but the southern advantage seems great. I know there are sea routes in the east.
If i am correct, would you consider some "rider" paths from the north to London that provide that quick access.

5. Caernaron? - Caernarvon or Caernarfon - not sure what you want to use, but i think a small typo perhaps.
Covertry? - Coventry perhaps
Devor - Dover perhaps?

6. also do you have font kerning in your software to spread the text letters evenly so that example Conventry does not appear as 3 sets of letter in one word.
Some fonts do this and need adjusting.
Newcastle looks perfect.

7. for later on, when graphics stage arises, think about some different kinds of trees - simply for variety - the amount you have now seem fine but they are all the same.

8. the minimap colours could do with some love or perhaps different treatment - not sure what is going on there with the whiter sections at the bottom of each region

9. is Stokestay castle part of the welsh region (brown) or mid region (purple) - from the legend it seems it should be part of wales. Seems unfair there is no road from Stokestay to Denbigh.

Hope this helps a little towards your goal. :)
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Aleena on Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:14 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image


1. All ships in the west have the same name - W1 - is this intentional?

(FIXED)

2. the black text on brown legend is hard to read - are you able to place some lighter layer behind it and offset it all, or
change the colour of the font, or place an outer glow around the text foir more visibility.

(Changed to white)

3. because of the black place names on dark blue sea it is difficult to read some names which cross from sea onto land or vice versa.
this can be fixed with an outer glow around text, or by extending the light blue coastline out to under those names and make this relatively even all around.

(Adjusted words so not in water or added light blue behind them)

4. you seem to have victory conditions in three places
a. the one under the title
b. control London and 4 churches for 1 turn you win.
c. beside the title
- if the same, they should be in one place so as to not confuse players; this will also reduce the real estate these are taking up and perhaps allow more "eye space" in the legend to read it more comfortably - think about the overall design of you legend.

(I removed the duplicate instructions about victory condition)

5. Looking at the southern region around London, there is a big advantage to anyone gaining the churches in the south, if the northern regions don't have easy access to London.
if someone gains Carlisle, Durham, York and Chester, and gets wiped out in the south they have a battle that might take some time to win while their opponent continues to fortify towards the churches and London in the south - i don't know if i am not understand this properly, but the southern advantage seems great. I know there are sea routes in the east.
If i am correct, would you consider some "rider" paths from the north to London that provide that quick access.

(Actually even the north area can all most attack London directly by using the ships in the water. London is a port, and because of this all areas pretty much have quick access to it.)

5. Caernaron? - Caernarvon or Caernarfon - not sure what you want to use, but i think a small typo perhaps.
Covertry? - Coventry perhaps
Devor - Dover perhaps?


(Fixed Spelling)

6. also do you have font kerning in your software to spread the text letters evenly so that example Conventry does not appear as 3 sets of letter in one word.
Some fonts do this and need adjusting.
Newcastle looks perfect.


(Think this issue was fixed when I fixed the spelling - do you still see an issue?)


7. for later on, when graphics stage arises, think about some different kinds of trees - simply for variety - the amount you have now seem fine but they are all the same.

(I'll look into this, but I'm using pine trees and most pine forests really only have pine trees in them.)

8. the minimap colours could do with some love or perhaps different treatment - not sure what is going on there with the whiter sections at the bottom of each region

(I changed the colors of the minimap and map them solid no more white bottoms)

9. is Stokestay castle part of the welsh region (brown) or mid region (purple) - from the legend it seems it should be part of wales. Seems unfair there is no road from Stokestay to Denbigh.

(Purple, Yellow and Brown sections have 10 areas each - but as you see the Brown section gives more of a Bonus, this is because it is seperated this way and is harder to control. So I balanced out this issue by making the Brown areas worth more.)



Any more comments, or suggestions?
Last edited by Aleena on Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby waauw on Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:04 am

I don't like the sea, it's too purple and the transition to the light blue coastline doesn't fit.
Also, the name Caernarvon passes infront of a tower
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Aleena on Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:23 am

Ok, I adjusted the Castle so the text does not cross over now.

I was trying to give an illusion in the water like this:
Click image to enlarge.
image


As you see the light blue water stands apart from the darker waters of the ocean, it does not just blend out...
But since you do not feel like it fits, I went ahead and blended it a bit.

I also think it's much more Blue then purple from before - so maybe it's just you don't like the royal blue and want a lighter blue - so I lightened it up some to also help blend with the island a bit -I do not want a perfect blend - for most maps now a days are placing outlines around the coastal areas to give a little detail, (they usually do it in like a black outline effect) I want to go a step further and make it actual coastal waters instead of just an outline..

Click image to enlarge.
image
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby cairnswk on Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:49 pm

Aleena wrote:...
(Think this issue was fixed when I fixed the spelling - do you still see an issue?)
...
Any more comments, or suggestions?


Vast improvement, nice work. :) but some further suggestions

1. now that you have the lighter blue sea, you can move the icons & army holders around on the coastline so that names sit out at sea. there is nothing to keep those coastal names on the land - this will give you more space on land

2. the kerning appears not right on Whitby, Alnwick, Beaumaris, Preston

3. Berwich? -> Berwick
Norwick? -> Norwich

3. is Alnwick in the right place? because on your larger reference map it is south of Berwick on the east coast of Northumberland, and where you have it now seems to be Appleby

4. Should not Raby Castle be on the north side of the River Tees - perhaps you need to examine where the River Tees runs on your map.

5. Compton is not in the right place, same with Exeter - should be on the south coast.

6. you'll need to swap the port symbol and Beaumaris army holder so that armies don't run over Caervarvon word.

7. what is that yellow/red shield on Maidstone. on your ref map that shield is south-east of London on Leeds, and indeed Mainstone is south-east of London, where you Canterbury, and Canterbury should be closer to Dover. Perhaps you mean that to be Farnham
I'm sorry, i recognise the need for creativity in some aspect of the map, but you simply cannot move things around this much so as to create incorrect historical accuracy. There needs to be correct placement of historical locations.

8. there is now space on the right side of your map to move the entire land sections over a fraction. from this movement, you'll be able to widen the legend so that the "each"s near the shields have brown legend under them and not sea.

9. you need to organise the legend so that all the references to churches is im one place, and all the references ports is similarly placed. the win conditions probably needs to go at the top of the legend where it is easily seen.

Keep up the good work. you'll get there. ;)
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Aleena on Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:21 pm

The color of the shore water now blends into the ocean - I do not think it gives the feel like that island picture I showed above..

Decided to make the ocean darker yet again, expand the coast waters out more - add whitewash and make the white wash look like it is being pulled out to sea and pushed into land...

What do you think of this water?

Click image to enlarge.
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Aleena on Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:29 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image


This is an alternative placement of the areas.

Please Let me know if you like where the areas are in the map above better or in the map below better.
Above the areas are about 60% accurate to what I'm using as my main guide and below they are 85% accurate.
(Will not be able to get any more accurate then what I have below... But even with this accuracy - the areas are bunched up in places where as above they are spread out... But I'll let you all be the judge of which layout you like better...

This link is what I'm basing all of the area placement by: (focusing on churches and shields)
http://brummbar.com/brummbar/board_game ... er_Map.pdf

I do now that the either map still have a few issues such as Exeter in the bottom map is not a port but a church and Penzance is not yellow but brown... But what I need to know right now is should I fix the map above and move forward - of fix the map below and move forward... Which map has better placement or areas as far as game play goes - in your all opinion?


Click image to enlarge.
image
Last edited by Aleena on Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:46 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:34 pm

I don't have any specific comments right now -- just wanted to say that you've done an awesome job transforming this from an MS Paint idea into a map I'd love to try!
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Aleena on Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:11 am

Ty Metsfanmax, I hope I'll be able to get out of draft and through this stamping process so that you could play it..

I do not like wasting time, and since I had the options for these layouts up all day and no one said anything - I decided to move forward with the new layout...

Below is the completed version of the new layout - many changes made - Please would love your feed back, comments, suggestions...

Click image to enlarge.
image
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby rdsrds2120 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:50 pm

One thing I notice is that it's hard to tell the bonus sections apart. Perhaps instead of coloring in the icons, you could make them uniform, a tad smaller, and use that extra room to add colored glows to territory names? This would also make the names easier to see (especially ones that span over multiple colors, such as Carisbrooke, Calais, Beaumaris, etc).

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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Aleena on Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:56 pm

Ok, I added a green glow behind the Names of the Green Areas... (The one's in the northern part of the map)

What do you all think? If you like I'll do it through out - but I think I did this before - and players didn't like it because it takes a lot away from the map since their are so many long names all over the map.

But if you like it - I can add it - just need the word....

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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby waauw on Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:28 am

Aleena wrote:Ok, I added a green glow behind the Names of the Green Areas... (The one's in the northern part of the map)

What do you all think? If you like I'll do it through out - but I think I did this before - and players didn't like it because it takes a lot away from the map since their are so many long names all over the map.

But if you like it - I can add it - just need the word....

Click image to enlarge.
image


These namebackgrounds look a lot better then the last ones.
Though I disagree with rds. Imo it was already clear what belonged to what bonuszone.
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Aleena on Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:52 am

If it is clear with-out placing the background color glow behind the words then I prefer to go with out... The less we clutter the map the better in my opinion...

So, I'm at a waiting game again - for either more players to say add the back ground glow behind names, other suggestions/comments, or a stamp so I can try to focus my attention more at game play then graphics..
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby waauw on Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:01 am

Aleena wrote:If it is clear with-out placing the background color glow behind the words then I prefer to go with out... The less we clutter the map the better in my opinion...

So, I'm at a waiting game again - for either more players to say add the back ground glow behind names, other suggestions/comments, or a stamp so I can try to focus my attention more at game play then graphics..


you could always maybe just try out a glow, as in a coloured shadow behind the letters
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Aleena on Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:21 am

will do
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Re: War Of The Roses

Postby Dukasaur on Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:49 pm

I'm wondering if there can be just a very light glow? Perhaps with just 25% saturation or something?
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