Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

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Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby Mr Changsha on Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:09 am

Am I alone in thinking CC should remove any map that is any way derivative? That CC should reduce the number of maps to just those that are unique, and the best examples of a game if there are countless other attempts?

Take the basic geographical maps. Classic is the original and 2.1 expanded upon it. I fail to see the point of any of the others. What do they add?

CC should, in my view, take about 10 core maps and make them as beautiful as possible. CC has had 5 years to experiment with a multitude of possible games and styles. I think now is the time to actually start considering the development of online Risk, by deciding which of these many maps (and game styles) actually have some fundamental strategic value and which either don't, or are but mere copies of another game.

I would say that Classic is the original, is the genesis of all that has since come. The classic map is fundamental.

2.1 expanded on Classic and made it a better game.

I would add that I consider Waterloo, Feudal, and New World to also have developed the game. There may be others I am missing but I think you take my point. At this stage of online Risk's development, I simply don't see the value of a hundred+ maps that, in my view at least, actually manage to dilute the game.

At the moment CC simply cannot say "This is Risk." It is a juvenile mess. If the game is to continue to develop then CC must take some hard decisions on where the game is going.
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby Army of GOD on Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:17 am

I disagree. I like having a lot of maps, even if I don't touch any of them. Sites with only 10 maps aren't as appealing. If I want a map that looks a certain way, then I can find it on here.

Take Japan on this site for example. It doesn't have any intense gameplay, but the map is so beautiful, it draws me in.
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:31 am

Changsha, I read a lot of your strategy articles and stuff, and 90% of the time I agree with you, but in this case I have to disagree. There are a few maps that I personally see little value in, but the key word there is "personally." Every time I hear someone say, "I hate this map!" I hear someone else say, "that's my favourite!" The multitude of maps and settings satisfies a multitude of different people's interests and playing styles, and that's what makes an online community vibrant and successful.

We can't say "this is Risk?" Who cares? Risk was a juvenile introduction to wargaming; mature wargamers always went on to play something more interesting. In the pre-computer age that mostly meant more advanced wargames like Third Reich or any of the Avalon Hill games. After personal computers came out, well, I won't even waste time listing all the options that have become available. The only thing keeping Risk alive is a certain nostalgia because, for most of us, it was the first wargame we ever played. That's all that makes us smile when we think of it, just as you probably still smile when you remember the first girl you kissed, even though now she's probably a postmenopausal old hag with lumbago and you would run away if you ever met her again.

Your favourite map, World 2.1, personally bores me to tears, but I have no desire to deprive you of it. A successful online site is a community, and as in any community, the beautiful things happen when we all decorate our houses differently, not when they just came from the cookie-cutter.
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby grifftron on Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:50 am

Mr Changsha wrote:At the moment CC simply cannot say "This is Risk." It is a juvenile mess. If the game is to continue to develop then CC must take some hard decisions on where the game is going.


CC HAS NEVER CLAIMED TO BE RISK! actually at the bottom it says "RISK is a registered trademark of Hasbro Inc. Conquer Club is not associated with RISK or Hasbro in any way."

CC is BETTER then RISK , more game styles, tons of players to play with any time, quick time games, speed games and of course TONS OF MAPS!

You my friend have played less then 25% of the maps on this website... how can you say most maps on this site suck and mess with the "true" meaning of "RISK" when you have never played on them before?

But in all honestly... if you want to play a few maps.. find a different website, there are tons of lame "risk" gaming sites with like 4-5 maps... i even found a "risk" game on my itouch the other day, it has 1 map! so knock yourself out!

worst idea off all time.

PS. OH and just like the post above, I HATE WORLD 2.1! AND CLASSIC TOO!

-griff
Last edited by grifftron on Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby Bruceswar on Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:52 am

I agree with Changa here, not 10 maps, but about there being too many maps out. Something needs to be done to "weed" out maps. There are too many out there if you ask me. Something has to be done if you ask me.
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby Army of GOD on Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:54 am

What's the problem of having "too many" maps?

I think the pros far outweigh the cons
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby grifftron on Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:54 am

Bruceswar wrote:I agree with Changa here, not 10 maps, but about there being too many maps out. Something needs to be done to "weed" out maps. There are too many out there if you ask me. Something has to be done if you ask me.


Why? Its a great variety of maps that most people like, if you don't like a map, just don't play it, whats the big deal?
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby jefjef on Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:58 am

lol. Yeah. Lets "develop" CC into a 10 map snooze fest.

Personally I think CC should dump the "random" map. It has so many glitches you never know what you're gonna end up with.

Keep up the fantastic work foundry crew! =D> =D> =D>
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby Master Fenrir on Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:07 am

Mr Changsha wrote:I would add that I consider Waterloo, Feudal, and New World to also have developed the game.

How is New World different enough from Feudal War to earn one of your 10 spots?
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby grifftron on Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:48 am

Master Fenrir wrote:
Mr Changsha wrote:I would add that I consider Waterloo, Feudal, and New World to also have developed the game.

How is New World different enough from Feudal War to earn one of your 10 spots?


What he means is he would add only the maps he likes, since he only plays on 10 regular maps, and has only played on no more then 40 maps over the 4 years he has been around... why keep the rest? :roll:

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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby Mr Changsha on Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:45 am

grifftron wrote:
Master Fenrir wrote:
Mr Changsha wrote:I would add that I consider Waterloo, Feudal, and New World to also have developed the game.

How is New World different enough from Feudal War to earn one of your 10 spots?


What he means is he would add only the maps he likes, since he only plays on 10 regular maps, and has only played on no more then 40 maps over the 4 years he has been around... why keep the rest? :roll:

-griff


Well if you are pointing out how consistant my views are then I thank you.

I'm saying that while new maps may be fun they rarely actually expand upon the original game. I'm saying there is little value to most of the maps on CC because they are mere copies (gameplay-wise) of other maps. Actually, they are often copies of copies. You can play on England, or Wales, or Africa or any other geographical map, but as far as I know they add no new gameplay dimension at all from the original. Therefore while they look different, and may be great in themselves, they aren't actually adding anything to the site...for they aren't helping online Risk to evolve in any way at all.

By the way I'm not (of course) suggesting that the maps I like should be kept. Give me a little more credit than that. I am saying that some maps have introduced interesting new gameplay elements and these should be kept. I'm sure there are others I haven't come across. I would guess that if one came to consider it you would find about 10 unique gameplay styles. The best of each style should be kept, even developed, the rest junked.

This is all about quality, not quantity.

I'm aware that I am very far from qualified to decide which CC maps have intrinsic value. My record speaks for itself. I was wondering if those of you that have played all the maps are able to take about 10 that are great and would all have unique features.
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby jigger1986 on Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:03 am

I couldnt disagree more with this idea. I love the fact that there are lots of maps. I havent played them all, and although basic gameplay doesnt change much between "standard" maps, its more about the art. Some of these "mere copies" have incredible detail, graphics, themes historical accuracy and are all around beautiful works of art.
Even maps with the simplest of gameplay offer very appealing visuals.
Just for the record if CC starting removing maps because they werent "helping Risk evolve" I would leave, and Im sure many others would as well.
In fact any additional map/setting or gameplay variation, however large or small, is a cross-section of evolution.

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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby Mr Changsha on Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:07 am

This reminds me of when I suggested that CC should lower everyone's rank by about three spots to make it more realistic.

Heh heh heh...

Quality, not quantity. If it isn't innovative then scrap it.
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby natty dread on Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:10 am

I agree in the sense that we have enough standard-gameplay maps. I don't endorse removing any maps that are already in play, because each of these maps are part of CC history and deserves to be included to the site.

But when it comes to new maps, standard gameplay maps simply shouldn't be made anymore. What indeed is the point of having a zillion maps with the same dynamics as classic, but slightly different territories and bonus areas?

What I'd like to see is more maps with new, exciting and innovative gameplay dynamics. Maps that push the envelope, so to speak.

I, as a mapmaker, have always tried to steer clear of the standard gameplay model, and introduce at least something new in each of my maps. There are also other mapmakers who I greatly admire who continue to make maps with new and exciting gameplay. Good current examples are South Africa, King's Court, Middle Ages... and of course Research & Conquer that is hopefully soon in beta. And if I may advertise somewhat, me & Isaiah40:s Antarctica... ;)

I'm not saying that every new map should have an exceptionally convoluted gameplay, but at least some deviation from the standard model. South Africa is a good example of this, it has mostly standard bonus areas, but an interesting twist to the gameplay, with the doubling bonuses.

Then we have King's Court, which has exceptionally well-designed dynamics. It plays like it was based on some other completely different board game than Risk.

And Research & Conquer... well, that's just epic. The map has been in development for years, and it will probably blow the minds of players when it finally comes out.

So, we do have lots of good maps with unique gameplay in development. There's no need to worry about that.

We do have lots of maps, but that's an asset to the site IMO. What I'd like to see from CC would be some way to group the maps in categories, because the "start a game" page is starting to become huge, and it's hard to find the maps you want from it...
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby Mr Changsha on Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:20 am

natty_dread wrote:I agree in the sense that we have enough standard-gameplay maps. I don't endorse removing any maps that are already in play, because each of these maps are part of CC history and deserves to be included to the site.

But when it comes to new maps, standard gameplay maps simply shouldn't be made anymore. What indeed is the point of having a zillion maps with the same dynamics as classic, but slightly different territories and bonus areas?

What I'd like to see is more maps with new, exciting and innovative gameplay dynamics. Maps that push the envelope, so to speak.

I, as a mapmaker, have always tried to steer clear of the standard gameplay model, and introduce at least something new in each of my maps. There are also other mapmakers who I greatly admire who continue to make maps with new and exciting gameplay. Good current examples are South Africa, King's Court, Middle Ages... and of course Research & Conquer that is hopefully soon in beta. And if I may advertise somewhat, me & Isaiah40:s Antarctica... ;)

I'm not saying that every new map should have an exceptionally convoluted gameplay, but at least some deviation from the standard model. South Africa is a good example of this, it has mostly standard bonus areas, but an interesting twist to the gameplay, with the doubling bonuses.

Then we have King's Court, which has exceptionally well-designed dynamics. It plays like it was based on some other completely different board game than Risk.

And Research & Conquer... well, that's just epic. The map has been in development for years, and it will probably blow the minds of players when it finally comes out.

So, we do have lots of good maps with unique gameplay in development. There's no need to worry about that.

We do have lots of maps, but that's an asset to the site IMO. What I'd like to see from CC would be some way to group the maps in categories, because the "start a game" page is starting to become huge, and it's hard to find the maps you want from it...


Good point all Natty, but I have to tell you that I can't abide mess and disorder. Once it is agreed that all those standard gameplay maps are a waste of space and add little to the site then they'll just have to go. Otherwise, every day players would be going to browse maps and thinking "Yep, Mr C said that's derivative crap...why can't they just remove it? It makes me ashamed to be here..."

So no half measures Natty. No compromise. If it wasn't, isn't and will never be innovative then it is for the chopper.

I have less experience of other gaming styles and am thus not qualified to judge their value. Hence the thread. But I do know ('cause you know I pretty much only play standard Risk) that most of the standard-game geographical maps may have taught CC'ers the finer points of geography but have done little to help evolve online Risk.
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby natty dread on Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:24 am

The problem is, you'll never get people to agree which maps should go and which should stay. All the maps have some people who like to play it. And everyone can think of reasons why their favorite map should be allowed to stay on the site.

So if mess and disorder are your only concern, what's wrong with just grouping the maps into categories so they will be easier to find? What's wrong with letting people play the maps they want to play?
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby Commander62890 on Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:03 am

I agree with Changsha's point - that most of the maps here have basic gameplay and are basically useless to the experienced player. The endless geographical maps with basic gameplay are incredibly boring.

However, I totally disagree with his view that we should scrap them.

I do not feel that there is any "mess and disorder."
I have a mental image of every map, and can therefore easily sift through a list of maps and find the ones I want.



Natty pretty much nailed it here:
natty_dread wrote:I agree in the sense that we have enough standard-gameplay maps. I don't endorse removing any maps that are already in play, because each of these maps are part of CC history and deserves to be included to the site.

But when it comes to new maps, standard gameplay maps simply shouldn't be made anymore. What indeed is the point of having a zillion maps with the same dynamics as classic, but slightly different territories and bonus areas?

This is the best you're going to get, Mr C. There's no way we're going to scrap maps.
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby grifftron on Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:18 am

Commander62890 wrote:I agree with Changsha's point - that most of the maps here have basic gameplay and are basically useless to the experienced player. The endless geographical maps with basic gameplay are incredibly boring.

However, I totally disagree with his view that we should scrap them.

I do not feel that there is any "mess and disorder."
I have a mental image of every map, and can therefore easily sift through a list of maps and find the ones I want.



Natty pretty much nailed it here:
natty_dread wrote:I agree in the sense that we have enough standard-gameplay maps. I don't endorse removing any maps that are already in play, because each of these maps are part of CC history and deserves to be included to the site.

But when it comes to new maps, standard gameplay maps simply shouldn't be made anymore. What indeed is the point of having a zillion maps with the same dynamics as classic, but slightly different territories and bonus areas?

This is the best you're going to get, Mr C. There's no way we're going to scrap maps.



Hey but on a more serious note... if you guys really want a website with just 10 standard maps i heard there is a website around the corner called www.conquersuckyland.com
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby Serbia on Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:31 am

natty_dread wrote:But when it comes to new maps, standard gameplay maps simply shouldn't be made anymore. What indeed is the point of having a zillion maps with the same dynamics as classic, but slightly different territories and bonus areas?


I disagree with this. My favorite maps are standard gameplay maps. I don't like all the silly wrinkles that being put in the new maps, South Africa being a good example. Does it really harm anyone that there are close to 200 maps? If so, why not just stop making ANY type of new map?

What I'd rather see is a sorting system (as I've suggested before), a way to classify types of maps, so if you prefer a certain gameplay, it's easy to find.
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby Qwert on Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:58 am

i think that changsa give some sugestion,so probably these need to be in sugestion forum.
If CC dont need any more new maps,then they need to close Map Foundry.
Maps with new features-well its easy to development, but you need to have new XMl Development who will follow map creation.
I think that its good to have more and more maps-who ofcourse are pass CC standards. Also its normal that people can not like all maps here, but every map have hes suporter who enjoy playing on these maps.
Personaly,i try to avoide to play Classic map,because these map its to much odd,and they get privileges to be in first place,if they move hem down in C lettrs,i think that people will lost interest to play these map. CC are best risk site,because hes maps,if you remove all maps and leave 10-15 maps, i bet that CC will lost members, its will become to much boring place with nothing to give for play. If i need to be forced to play same odd map ,every time, i will lost interest and try to find better place for game.
You have yours oppinion, but you can not say,what other people like.
Propose these to sugestion forum,and people can vote on these.
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby SirSebstar on Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:17 am

I do think we could rotate simular maps, like make one the map of januari or something. e.g. the WOII maps. give them out in sequance and you get a campain feeling with it...
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby Mr Changsha on Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:23 am

natty_dread wrote:The problem is, you'll never get people to agree which maps should go and which should stay. All the maps have some people who like to play it. And everyone can think of reasons why their favorite map should be allowed to stay on the site.


I believe a closed forum group (of no more than 3 people) should be set up to evaluate each map in turn on the famed Changsha basis of 'democracy and equality for all.' These three players should, and they have chosen on an entirely objective basis, be...

Agent 86 Manwiththeplan and Spoongod

natty_dread wrote:So if mess and disorder are your only concern, what's wrong with just grouping the maps into categories so they will be easier to find? What's wrong with letting people play the maps they want to play?


Are you advocating the wisdom of the masses? All I see here is dumbing down and rank communism. As the American people has proved beyond doubt, if you give people different kinds of pizzas, burgers and fries they'll just keep on eating. "More...is good." Sometimes the really good stuff gets lost in the gluttony.

Let's have some long-term thinking here. 'Every map ever should stay...part of CC history.' What about when there are 200 maps? A genuine look should be had at lots of these maps. If they are not obviously innovative (or popular...I give you all that) then they should be scrapped.

Btw, I have absolutely no expectation of anyone with any actual authority taking a blind bit of notice of me. Hence this is not in the suggestions forum. I'm just getting my ideas out there. In this case...

'Quality, not quantity.'
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby natty dread on Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:43 am

Mr Changsha wrote:
natty_dread wrote:The problem is, you'll never get people to agree which maps should go and which should stay. All the maps have some people who like to play it. And everyone can think of reasons why their favorite map should be allowed to stay on the site.


I believe a closed forum group (of no more than 3 people) should be set up to evaluate each map in turn on the famed Changsha basis of 'democracy and equality for all.' These three players should, and they have chosen on an entirely objective basis, be...

Agent 86 Manwiththeplan and Spoongod


Ok, so why should 3 people decide what maps 10000 other people can or can not play? What makes these 3 people so superior that they know what the 10000 other people want better than they themselves?

natty_dread wrote:So if mess and disorder are your only concern, what's wrong with just grouping the maps into categories so they will be easier to find? What's wrong with letting people play the maps they want to play?


Are you advocating the wisdom of the masses?


No, I'm advocating keeping CC a site that serves all of it's members, instead of a few snobby elitists who don't consider the bulk of the maps "good enough" for them.

All I see here is dumbing down and rank communism.


Troll harder. Communism is just a buzzword these days (as is, incidentally, the word "buzzword" itself) used mainly by americans to discredit other peoples' ideas. Hence why I wasn't using it to refute your "3 people to decide for everyone" idea, much as the situation would have warranted...

As the American people has proved beyond doubt, if you give people different kinds of pizzas, burgers and fries they'll just keep on eating. "More...is good." Sometimes the really good stuff gets lost in the gluttony.


I believe you are commiting the logical fallacy of "argumentum ad anuseum", ie. pulling arguments out of your arse.

You can't compare eating habits with CC maps. For one thing, no one ever got morbidly obese from playing CC maps. There might be some correlation in cases where players do nothing but play on CC all day and eat junk food, but as you should know, correlation does not imply causation.

Let's have some long-term thinking here. 'Every map ever should stay...part of CC history.' What about when there are 200 maps?


What about it? Then we'll have 200 maps to choose from. If you don't want to play some of those maps... here's an easy solution: don't play them.

A genuine look should be had at lots of these maps. If they are not obviously innovative (or popular...I give you all that) then they should be scrapped.


Well, how much play is enough to keep a map on the site, in your opinion? Where do we draw the line? Besides, just because a map isn't popular right now, doesn't mean it can't become popular again in the future. Having lots of maps also allows tournament players options to hold variable and interesting tournaments.

Btw, I have absolutely no expectation of anyone with any actual authority taking a blind bit of notice of me. Hence this is not in the suggestions forum. I'm just getting my ideas out there. In this case...

'Quality, not quantity.'


"Quality" is a subjective measure. What you consider a quality map can be a piece of crap to someone else, and vice versa.
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby grifftron on Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:03 am

Agent 86Manwiththeplan and Spoongod


HMMMMMM, well i looked at all 3, and they are all from CHINA at this very moment, which either means you are sitting for them all today, or they are all really from CHINA like yourself... this thread is a joke, think of something else that makes more since then just setting up 3 of your best buddies to choose all the maps of CC... or you could just start your own "risk" site like some have already done (MajorCommand ring a bell?)

plus they are all freemium.. why should they have any say what people want?
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Re: Brace Yourself...Mapmakers.

Postby Mr Changsha on Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:07 am

Am I supposed to get involved in one of those quoting/sniping marathons right about now?

Yeah, right...

It is time to prune CC at the edges, it is time to cut away the chaff. I think you could take away overnight about half of the maps and the only people who would notice would be grifftron ('cause he just has it in for me), quert ('cause he's just that kind of guy) and old lesbian Sally, the squinty-eyed milkmaid from Doncaster. Who had a thing for whips, chains and, easily sickest of all, 'Archipelago'.
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