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Re: Did you know...

Postby chapcrap on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:57 pm

natty dread wrote:Secondly, that's all beside the point... the fact is, I made a map, I got told I couldn't make it because the site considered a large World map such an important project that they'd rather give it to a group of talentless hacks to make in secret, rather than to an established mapmaker. That's the point here, that certain people get special privileges over regular mapmakers, for absolutely no good reason whatsoever, other than they happen to be in some inner-circle clubhouse that gets the admin's special protection...

Those guys probably don't even have a draft yet. I have a ready map image. Why all the secrecy and lack of transparency in the process? If they were truly confident in the quality of their work, they'd post their map right alongside mine in the foundry and let the community decide which one is better. Let the better map survive, not the one that has special protection... if I'd get beaten in honest competition, I'd be fine with that, but this is just wrong.

That isn't something I'm arguing with.

I said they didn't steal the concept. That's all.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby army of nobunaga on Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:10 am

chapcrap wrote:
natty dread wrote:Secondly, that's all beside the point... the fact is, I made a map, I got told I couldn't make it because the site considered a large World map such an important project that they'd rather give it to a group of talentless hacks to make in secret, rather than to an established mapmaker. That's the point here, that certain people get special privileges over regular mapmakers, for absolutely no good reason whatsoever, other than they happen to be in some inner-circle clubhouse that gets the admin's special protection...

Those guys probably don't even have a draft yet. I have a ready map image. Why all the secrecy and lack of transparency in the process? If they were truly confident in the quality of their work, they'd post their map right alongside mine in the foundry and let the community decide which one is better. Let the better map survive, not the one that has special protection... if I'd get beaten in honest competition, I'd be fine with that, but this is just wrong.

That isn't something I'm arguing with.

I said they didn't steal the concept. That's all.



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Re: Did you know...

Postby redhawk92 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:01 am

DiM wrote:i'd jump in and do a little bashing on "special" maps but the truth is i really don't care that much about the foundry anymore.
i'm surprised people still do.


i care about the foundry

i think as a member of team cc you saying this is ridiculous

i say the members of cc should be calling for your resignation?
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Re: Did you know...

Postby chapcrap on Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:46 am

army of nobunaga wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
natty dread wrote:Secondly, that's all beside the point... the fact is, I made a map, I got told I couldn't make it because the site considered a large World map such an important project that they'd rather give it to a group of talentless hacks to make in secret, rather than to an established mapmaker. That's the point here, that certain people get special privileges over regular mapmakers, for absolutely no good reason whatsoever, other than they happen to be in some inner-circle clubhouse that gets the admin's special protection...

Those guys probably don't even have a draft yet. I have a ready map image. Why all the secrecy and lack of transparency in the process? If they were truly confident in the quality of their work, they'd post their map right alongside mine in the foundry and let the community decide which one is better. Let the better map survive, not the one that has special protection... if I'd get beaten in honest competition, I'd be fine with that, but this is just wrong.

That isn't something I'm arguing with.
I said they didn't steal the concept. That's all.

What are you talking about and who are you talking to?

If you do not like it quit crying like a girl
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Re: Did you know...

Postby Leehar on Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:48 am

chapcrap wrote:
army of nobunaga wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
natty dread wrote:Secondly, that's all beside the point... the fact is, I made a map, I got told I couldn't make it because the site considered a large World map such an important project that they'd rather give it to a group of talentless hacks to make in secret, rather than to an established mapmaker. That's the point here, that certain people get special privileges over regular mapmakers, for absolutely no good reason whatsoever, other than they happen to be in some inner-circle clubhouse that gets the admin's special protection...

Those guys probably don't even have a draft yet. I have a ready map image. Why all the secrecy and lack of transparency in the process? If they were truly confident in the quality of their work, they'd post their map right alongside mine in the foundry and let the community decide which one is better. Let the better map survive, not the one that has special protection... if I'd get beaten in honest competition, I'd be fine with that, but this is just wrong.

That isn't something I'm arguing with.
I said they didn't steal the concept. That's all.


If you do not like it quit crying like a girl

What are you talking about and who are you talking to?


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Re: Did you know...

Postby DiM on Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:43 pm

kylegraves1 wrote:
DiM wrote:i'd jump in and do a little bashing on "special" maps but the truth is i really don't care that much about the foundry anymore.
i'm surprised people still do.


i care about the foundry


and strangely you aren't even bothered to manifest that care through feedback given in the foundry. if you really care about it, then go to the foundry, look at the maps being developed and post your constructive criticism.

kylegraves1 wrote:i think as a member of team cc you saying this is ridiculous


why? there are plenty of team CC members that never posted in the foundry.
the truth is, a vast portion of this site's members doesn't even know where maps are made or who makes them.
and while very few people know about the existence of the foundry even fewer visit it regularly and contribute. the foundry regulars are less than 0.1%of the total number of people on this site.

kylegraves1 wrote:i say the members of cc should be calling for your resignation?


yeah. take out your pitchforks and axes.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby Qwert on Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:52 pm

well,well Naty, when i talk abouth how map foundry create maps in secret forums,and when this maps are restricted only to few people, you laught and defend foundry foremans and CA, after that you become foe on mine list,and we dont talk anymore. Now you copy and paste mine oppinion abouth work in Map Foundry. Well who will say that this day will come to naty speak same like me?

Naty ,map foundry its not frendly place,and if you think that you will get right to create map ,then you are wrong-this is not democraty,and only what you can its to leave map foundry imediatly,like i do 2009 years. I still demand justice for Classic Art map, and that all recipient, be strip of this medals(this map create iner circle comunity of Foundry Foreman and CA who get privilege to create this map,and for this shit map work(yes Classic Art are crap map,dont deserve any congratulation) they all get awards(6 medals).
I know that someone will say " medals are irelewant" , but i spend 3 years in map creating, and these 6 person spend 1 day creating Classic Crap, and in this way they show how respect all MAp Makers,who spend month and month in creating maps in regular map foundry, and try to finish maps in "regular" way.
In mine demand ,they only laught, show what they think abouth mine work.
Result are know,after that i leave map foundry permanently(3 years now out of map foundry),i even demand that they remove mine GA medal for notheworthy contribution in map foundry,because its belove mine honor to have the medal with same people who get same award.
In begining map foundry whas frendly place, even lackattack are frendly ,want to speak with other mapmakers,try to solve problems in fair way, but now everything are change.
I have so many more,but map foundry are history for me,,victor sulivan and thenobodie try something last year, but they dont have enough powers to bring things in right way, to bring justice back, and i refuse to come back .
Good luck with your attempt natty, but this is not democraty, dont forget that.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby redhawk92 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:48 pm

DiM wrote:
kylegraves1 wrote:
DiM wrote:i'd jump in and do a little bashing on "special" maps but the truth is i really don't care that much about the foundry anymore.
i'm surprised people still do.


i care about the foundry


and strangely you aren't even bothered to manifest that care through feedback given in the foundry. if you really care about it, then go to the foundry, look at the maps being developed and post your constructive criticism.

kylegraves1 wrote:i think as a member of team cc you saying this is ridiculous


why? there are plenty of team CC members that never posted in the foundry.
the truth is, a vast portion of this site's members doesn't even know where maps are made or who makes them.
and while very few people know about the existence of the foundry even fewer visit it regularly and contribute. the foundry regulars are less than 0.1%of the total number of people on this site.

kylegraves1 wrote:i say the members of cc should be calling for your resignation?


yeah. take out your pitchforks and axes.


i look threw it on occasion, i think it should be there and it has a purpose, obviously you dont

that is sad
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Re: Did you know...

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:57 pm

qwert wrote:when i talk abouth how map foundry create maps in secret forums,and when this maps are restricted only to few people, you laught and defend foundry foremans and CA


Shows what you know... Firstly, the secret maps are not being made in the map foundry, that's the whole point of this thing, and some of them are even done without the supervision of CA:s or the foreman... Secondly, I have never defended the process of making secret maps, ever, so I don't know what you're talking about there.

And when I defended the foundry, it's because back then the foundry used to be a good place... no admin came to tell mapmakers they couldn't make a map because they'd rather have some team of hacks make it in secret. Now, that's all changed, and it's painfully obvious the admins intend to phase out the foundry... I asked about this directly from Andy, I asked if they plan on making the foundry irrelevant, and he dodged my question totally.

The foreman and the CA:s do a great job, I wish nothing but good for them. It's the admin of the site and the bullshit entertainment-team Secret Foundry #2 that are to blame for all this bullshit.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby DiM on Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:30 pm

kylegraves1 wrote:i look threw it on occasion, i think it should be there and it has a purpose, obviously you dont

that is sad


so your contribution towards the foundry is just as valuable as your spelling. :roll:
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Re: Did you know...

Postby VampireM on Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:17 pm

natty dread wrote: I asked about this directly from Andy, I asked if they plan on making the foundry irrelevant, and he dodged my question totally.


u should make a thread threatening the bring down the entire process unless andy answers u and fixes this problem
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Re: Did you know...

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:33 pm

Natty, you know I have respect for you as man an as mapmaker so please don't think I'm writing this post to defend the site or something like that, nor to argue with you.
I'm writing this post just for make things clear about the fact you said the admins stole your map idea.

- You posted the map (April, 7th @ 19:14) (my time zone)
- I asked you to keep the map on hold (April, 7th @ 19:53)
- I asked to the admins (April, 7th @ 19:45)
- I received an official answer (April, 9th @ 17:14) with precise instructions
- I sent you a PM, the one quoted in the OP, two days later (April, 11th @ 11:53) - sorry for waiting 2 days but you know I'm busy sometimes O:)
- The first time I received info about this admin project was on March, 28th and it was confirmed to me on March, 30th

So, even if you already know my opinion about this whole thing (i'm not going to post here the things we discussed in private) and even if you certainly know that it wasn't simple for me to tell you to stop with that map, your assertion about the admins stealing your map idea is false.
Moreover, knowing the admins working time line I bet this project is born really much much earlier than yours.

And just for the record, you should say all the truth, I know Andy has given you an answer:

AndyDufresne wrote:You can still certainly develop World XL, we aren't really stopping you on that front....Omissis....We just did not want you investing your effort into something that may end up the similar gameplay. But you can certainly create a World XL map if you think it has unique enough gameplay different from the map we'll be releasing and if the Foundry supports it like any other map.


So, for what I can understand, he said you to wait a bit (and you have to wait till we decide the new supersize limits anyway), look the map they will realease IN the foundry for a public review, and then if you have support and if it's unique enough continue your map project.

Said that, we have already talked about this and I don't think your current feelings/thoughts are caused by this map but for a sum of things. You know that I'm saying the truth. ;)

Listen to me, take your time, relax, refresh your mind and come back stronger! :)
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Re: Did you know...

Postby redhawk92 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:28 pm

DiM wrote:
kylegraves1 wrote:i look threw it on occasion, i think it should be there and it has a purpose, obviously you dont

that is sad


so your contribution towards the foundry is just as valuable as your spelling. :roll:


if you want to discuss how i spell id love to discuss that with you, pm me
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Re: Did you know...

Postby DiM on Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:00 pm

kylegraves1 wrote:
DiM wrote:
kylegraves1 wrote:i look threw it on occasion, i think it should be there and it has a purpose, obviously you dont

that is sad


so your contribution towards the foundry is just as valuable as your spelling. :roll:


if you want to discuss how i spell id love to discuss that with you, pm me


and it appears your syntax is just as poor as your spelling. ;)

but i digress. my point was that despite being part of team CC i'm free to not care about the foundry.
furthermore, you, a person that allegedly goes "threw" the foundry yet never posts, aren't really in the position to judge my stance towards the foundry when i have spent countless hours making maps and giving feedback.
if i am disappointed in the foundry, which i am, then i have pretty good reasons. and those reasons you'll probably never be able to fully understand because you're not a map maker, or even a foundry regular.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby redhawk92 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:50 pm

DiM wrote:
kylegraves1 wrote:
DiM wrote:
kylegraves1 wrote:i look threw it on occasion, i think it should be there and it has a purpose, obviously you dont

that is sad


so your contribution towards the foundry is just as valuable as your spelling. :roll:


if you want to discuss how i spell id love to discuss that with you, pm me


and it appears your syntax is just as poor as your spelling. ;)

but i digress. my point was that despite being part of team CC i'm free to not care about the foundry.
furthermore, you, a person that allegedly goes "threw" the foundry yet never posts, aren't really in the position to judge my stance towards the foundry when i have spent countless hours making maps and giving feedback.
if i am disappointed in the foundry, which i am, then i have pretty good reasons. and those reasons you'll probably never be able to fully understand because you're not a map maker, or even a foundry regular.


i just think you shouldnt speak against the foundry without saying why you are
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Re: Did you know...

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:58 pm

Nobodies, my objection was to the very idea that maps are being made in secret, outside the foundry, and they get some kind of special treatment against regular foundry maps. I don't care how long they're been thinking about making their map or talked about it behind closed doors. I can just as well say I've been thinking of creating my really large world map for a year (which, incidentally, now that I think of it... I first started thinking about the idea last summer or so, so there...)

And sure, Andy can tell me I can make my map if I just change it enough to not be "similar" to theirs, but that's just stupid... they're telling me I can paint my house red, as long as I paint it with any other colour than red...

And why should I have to automatically be the one to have to make a different map? What happened to equality? Why aren't their "secret" map treated the same as any other map that goes through the foundry? Yes, they say they'll "put their map in the foundry for public review" but those are empty words when we know the same rules don't apply to their map... If the graphics or gameplay suck, and the talentless hacks who have to hide in their own forums can't get them up to foundry standards, will their project be binned like any other map project would? I kinda doubt it... it'll probably end up looking like a piece of Easter.

Also, if they're going to put their map for "public review" anyway, then what's the point of developing it in secret in the first place? The thing doesn't make any sense. Mark my words, they're going to phase out the foundry alltogether...

Anyway, this is pretty much all I want to say about this subject. This thing has been going on too long, too many words typed, my fingers hurt, and I'm tired of banging my head against the wall when the wall has no intention of breaking.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby Army of GOD on Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:01 pm

What I don't understand is how natty is supposed to know how to make his map different if he doesn't even know what the other map looks like...
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Re: Did you know...

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:02 am

Why can't there be two World XLs? We already have many maps of the world.

Christmas is a good map. It is the only defensible special map.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby redhawk92 on Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:30 am

DoomYoshi wrote:Why can't there be two World XLs? We already have many maps of the world.

Christmas is a good map. It is the only defensible special map.


+1 =D>
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Re: Did you know...

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:08 am

Some answers, I'll leave you natty for the final one, since you're the only one who really knows what we're talking about.

kylegraves1 wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:.....
Christmas is a good map. It is the only defensible special map.


+1 =D>


this make me laugh, i like that map but I know the "secrets" behind it, who draw the background picture, the names on the map, etc...
In any case what you said sound strange to me because I can provide a long long list of people who find it horrible and hate it.
This is a confirmation of the fact all maps have a reason and shouldn't be axed because there's always someone who like them.

DoomYoshi wrote:Why can't there be two World XLs? We already have many maps of the world.


The foundry, or in this case the site, has its own rules: Maps must be ‘inherently unique either in gameplay, location, or theme’.

Army of GOD wrote:What I don't understand is how natty is supposed to know how to make his map different if he doesn't even know what the other map looks like...


He can't, that's why I asked (and Andy did the same) to him to keep his map on hold for a bit. I don't think natty will die if he will work a bit later on this map.
Then if we want to make this thing a matter of principle it's another thing.

Now natty,

natty dread wrote:my objection was to the very idea that maps are being made in secret, outside the foundry, and they get some kind of special treatment against regular foundry maps.


You already know my thoughts about this but since we're speaking let me speak frankly so people can understand this discussion. First of all let me state clear that I'm not going to speak like Foundry Foreman, but as simple user, foundry user, mapmaker like you and everyone else. So...(throwing the blue shoes in a corner of the room):
Personally I think that special maps, at some point should pass through the foundry system and i think that the site has understood this thing and it's going to go on this road finally. What I continue to say is that there's a big difference between the use and the abuse of a thing. The special maps must be special maps and they must come occasionally and with occasionally I mean 1 in a year, no more.
I'm not pointing my fingers against the Entertainment Team, but - and this is a very personal thought - that team is allowed to do nothing and everything and I think that this is where the problem lies. (don't get me wrong gilligan ;) )
If it was my site the Entertainment Team should be half of what it is now, they should be the team behind a special event but IMO a tournament, a map, etc etc should be organized, runned or draw by the people who does this all days instead of give some pink to people who could be more efficient and prolific with another color. The newsletter people is doing a good job, but if this was my site, for special events I would go with a pink man + a gold man if we speak about tournament, pink + blue if we speak about maps.
The confirmation of what I'm saying is the map you referred to: Easter
I have to admit is one of the map i dislike the most. Input given from CAs: ZERO!
In that moment I learned that, at least the FF, should be aware about a map project or it will be a shitty map 100%
Now, I'm not trying to appear like a map god, far from me, I still have lot to learn like everyone else, but look at my africa II map, done behind the scenes (just because there was a good cause to support) but with the collaboration of a small group of valid people, people who knows about maps.
Personally I've decided to not give my support in the development of new behind the scenes map, this because i really think that my role on this site is to be the voice of the foundry people, not only the person who manage the foundry things for the admins. Obviously I can see if maps are developed, but this just because if I see anopther piece of crap I can jump there and say...guys you're doing another shitty map! But my role/collaboration with that type of maps is just that.

Now, where I throw my blue shoes?..oh ok there...gimem a sec to take them ;)
Done...

natty dread wrote:And why should I have to automatically be the one to have to make a different map? What happened to equality? Why aren't their "secret" map treated the same as any other map that goes through the foundry? Yes, they say they'll "put their map in the foundry for public review" but those are empty words when we know the same rules don't apply to their map... If the graphics or gameplay suck, and the talentless hacks who have to hide in their own forums can't get them up to foundry standards, will their project be binned like any other map project would? I kinda doubt it... it'll probably end up looking like a piece of Easter.


If the site thinks that have and develop a map outside the foundry system is a good thing ....I can't do nothing to stop them.
Honestly If a map comes out a piece of crap only people can "bin" that map, never forget the power of your paying customers.
If the map sucks, don't play it, go in the thread (when we will have it) and shout loudly: this map sucks, stop making maps without letting people who knows about map can look at them.
But for now I have to leave the benefit of the doubt, at least till we can play that map.
Instead, if what you're saying it's just a matter of principle, then natty...you don't own this site, I don't own this site so we can only shut up. As said I really think that special maps should come very rarely.
I don't know about the others map, but for Africa II the system we used was really similar to the foundry one, I'm strongly convinced that the foundry system can produce good maps we really need to refine it, but it works.

natty dread wrote:Also, if they're going to put their map for "public review" anyway, then what's the point of developing it in secret in the first place? The thing doesn't make any sense. Mark my words, they're going to phase out the foundry alltogether...


The point, i think is that the foundry system is too slow. If the site will let me change the things in the way I would change them it won't be so slow.

Hopefully it seems this time I can change some things, you know I'm trying to change the system to have it done for you all, but let me say that for now just few person send me a PM because the want to help.
So if I fight to change things, if i fight for you all...but when it comes to the point we can change things and you all can speak to change things, no one speak....
Although there're some things that maybe show less respect for the foundry and for the foundry people, in the same time the foundry people has less respect and interest in making their ownhome a better place.
Let me say this clear, there's too much new people that complain but do nothing when it comes to contribute to make thing better.

I don't think they are going to phase out the foundry, but on the opposite is the community that is doing that....look at this thing from the other point of view and you'll see how much I'm right.
People don't care about us, when they do, we respond with harsh words so the don't come back, we are also paying for a old crew who didn't want the outsider come into the foundry, they pissed the people around the forum to transform the foundry in a closed, small group and then leave the site to create their own site with a totally closed system in which they draw your map idea if they want to.

This is the foundry MrBenn and myself found, this is the foundry we're trying to save and put back to its former glory. But even if I try to put all my effort into it I can't do it alone. Look at it, those who are really foundry voices are 4, 5 no more i think...i start a discussion and it ends in nothing....

Remember the foundry are you guys, not the site....they can't close or phase out a group of people....to me it's more that one mapmaker doesn't care anymore about the others, too big egos there, too many bad answers to people who come there trying to ask, contribute.
Tell them they are shit and they will throw your shit back to you at some point.

I think this post is a mess and I'm not sure it's fully understandable (I'm writing while I'm at work so if something is not clear or confused, sorry)

It's interesting we're talking about the foundry in GD....but at least someone will read and reply in the thread! :lol:

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Re: Did you know...

Postby Gillipig on Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:04 am

DoomYoshi wrote:Why can't there be two World XLs? We already have many maps of the world.

Christmas is a good map. It is the only defensible special map.

:sick:

Let's just say I'm on that list nobodies could give you :lol:.


@nobodies
I think it's rather silly to have members of the entertainment team unsupervised make these maps. Focus lies on "unsupervised", as they're not even experts at map making so they definitely need the feedback and help of at least some foundry regulars.
I don't mind seeing them making maps in "semi" secret as long as not too many maps are being made this way, and that the end product is a good looking and enjoyable map.
But in all honesty I don't see why they should make these maps in the first place! It's not really logical that the entertainment team handles special maps when we have map specialists that could handle it better.
It's like putting CA's in charge of special events or tournament organizing, it just doesn't make any sense!
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Re: Did you know...

Postby DiM on Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:15 am

thenobodies80 wrote:but look at my africa II map, done behind the scenes (just because there was a good cause to support) but with the collaboration of a small group of valid people, people who knows about maps.


you keep telling yourself that it won't make it true but you'll maybe get some peace of mind.
the "good cause" excuse was used by all other "secret" map makers.
"hey it's for christmas, it's for a good cause"
"hey an easter map will make people happy so it's a good cause"

also while i agree your map is much better than crap like st.pattrick's day or christmas it's still far from being what it could have been had it been through a proper foundry process.
the map was done behind the scenes and placed in final forge. this means that only minor tweaking will be done when in fact the map needs quite extensive work.

thenobodies80 wrote:Personally I've decided to not give my support in the development of new behind the scenes map


would have been nice to reach this decision before you actually gave your support and made the africa map.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby Qwert on Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:18 am

Natty,if you want to listen mine advice, just leave foundry imediatly, remove your project and move away. You only talk to wall, and you only lost your nerves. Thenobodies are not person who are responsibile for this decision. If Admin decide ,then you can not change this . Admin have powers to do everything,even when this its against hes own rules(classic Art and all other secret maps), so dont expect that you can win in this case, no mather how much you are right. This is hes games,and hes field, and hes rules.
Sad but true.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby Leehar on Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:18 am

Nicely said nobodies. It's always nice to hear those perspectives!
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Re: Did you know...

Postby natty dread on Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:10 am

Well, I wasn't going to post here any more, but a couple more thoughts:

Why do we need an entertainment team to create special maps? If those guys really want to make maps, they should just go to the foundry and do it like the real mapmakers do. If we need some "surprise" maps, fine, create a special project for them... it seems to me like the only reason we get maps made by the entertainment team is because the entertainment team wants to feel useful.

Funny thing is, look at the most popular map on the site, Classic. When classic was revamped, the situation was completely different from what it is now. The revamp of classic map wasn't given to some secret clubhouse of the entertainment team, no, it was made by a mapmaker in the foundry. It started out as just another foundry map, World Cities, until it was decided that this map should be made into the new classic, and then it was developed as the new Classic map in the foundry like all the other maps.

If the atmosphere had been then what it is now, the maker of World Cities would probably have been told "hey, you have to stop making your map, we're going to make a new classic map and yours is too similar"...

What changed between now and then? The answer is obvious, lackattack no longer trusts the Foundry to create the best possible maps for the site, despite all the evidence showing that maps made outside the foundry are inferior in quality every time.
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