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[natty dread]

Nobodies, my objection was to the very idea that maps are being made in secret, outside the foundry, and they get some kind of special treatment against regular foundry maps. I don't care how long they're been thinking about making their map or talked about it behind closed doors. I can just as well say I've been thinking of creating my really large world map for a year (which, incidentally, now that I think of it... I first started thinking about the idea last summer or so, so there...)

And sure, Andy can tell me I can make my map if I just change it enough to not be "similar" to theirs, but that's just stupid... they're telling me I can paint my house red, as long as I paint it with any other colour than red...

And why should I have to automatically be the one to have to make a different map? What happened to equality? Why aren't their "secret" map treated the same as any other map that goes through the foundry? Yes, they say they'll "put their map in the foundry for public review" but those are empty words when we know the same rules don't apply to their map... If the graphics or gameplay suck, and the talentless hacks who have to hide in their own forums can't get them up to foundry standards, will their project be binned like any other map project would? I kinda doubt it... it'll probably end up looking like a piece of Easter.

Also, if they're going to put their map for "public review" anyway, then what's the point of developing it in secret in the first place? The thing doesn't make any sense. Mark my words, they're going to phase out the foundry alltogether...

Anyway, this is pretty much all I want to say about this subject. This thing has been going on too long, too many words typed, my fingers hurt, and I'm tired of banging my head against the wall when the wall has no intention of breaking.

[Army of GOD]

What I don't understand is how natty is supposed to know how to make his map different if he doesn't even know what the other map looks like...

[DoomYoshi]

Why can't there be two World XLs? We already have many maps of the world.

Christmas is a good map. It is the only defensible special map.

[kylegraves1]

Why can't there be two World XLs? We already have many maps of the world.

Christmas is a good map. It is the only defensible special map.

+1

[thenobodies80]

Some answers, I'll leave you natty for the final one, since you're the only one who really knows what we're talking about.

.....
Christmas is a good map. It is the only defensible special map.

+1

this make me laugh, i like that map but I know the "secrets" behind it, who draw the background picture, the names on the map, etc...
In any case what you said sound strange to me because I can provide a long long list of people who find it horrible and hate it.
This is a confirmation of the fact all maps have a reason and shouldn't be axed because there's always someone who like them.

Why can't there be two World XLs? We already have many maps of the world.

The foundry, or in this case the site, has its own rules: Maps must be ‘inherently unique either in gameplay, location, or theme’.

What I don't understand is how natty is supposed to know how to make his map different if he doesn't even know what the other map looks like...

He can't, that's why I asked (and Andy did the same) to him to keep his map on hold for a bit. I don't think natty will die if he will work a bit later on this map.
Then if we want to make this thing a matter of principle it's another thing.

Now natty,

my objection was to the very idea that maps are being made in secret, outside the foundry, and they get some kind of special treatment against regular foundry maps.

You already know my thoughts about this but since we're speaking let me speak frankly so people can understand this discussion. First of all let me state clear that I'm not going to speak like Foundry Foreman, but as simple user, foundry user, mapmaker like you and everyone else. So...(throwing the blue shoes in a corner of the room):
Personally I think that special maps, at some point should pass through the foundry system and i think that the site has understood this thing and it's going to go on this road finally. What I continue to say is that there's a big difference between the use and the abuse of a thing. The special maps must be special maps and they must come occasionally and with occasionally I mean 1 in a year, no more.
I'm not pointing my fingers against the Entertainment Team, but - and this is a very personal thought - that team is allowed to do nothing and everything and I think that this is where the problem lies. (don't get me wrong gilligan )
If it was my site the Entertainment Team should be half of what it is now, they should be the team behind a special event but IMO a tournament, a map, etc etc should be organized, runned or draw by the people who does this all days instead of give some pink to people who could be more efficient and prolific with another color. The newsletter people is doing a good job, but if this was my site, for special events I would go with a pink man + a gold man if we speak about tournament, pink + blue if we speak about maps.
The confirmation of what I'm saying is the map you referred to: Easter
I have to admit is one of the map i dislike the most. Input given from CAs: ZERO!
In that moment I learned that, at least the FF, should be aware about a map project or it will be a shitty map 100%
Now, I'm not trying to appear like a map god, far from me, I still have lot to learn like everyone else, but look at my africa II map, done behind the scenes (just because there was a good cause to support) but with the collaboration of a small group of valid people, people who knows about maps.
Personally I've decided to not give my support in the development of new behind the scenes map, this because i really think that my role on this site is to be the voice of the foundry people, not only the person who manage the foundry things for the admins. Obviously I can see if maps are developed, but this just because if I see anopther piece of crap I can jump there and say...guys you're doing another shitty map! But my role/collaboration with that type of maps is just that.

Now, where I throw my blue shoes?..oh ok there...gimem a sec to take them
Done...

And why should I have to automatically be the one to have to make a different map? What happened to equality? Why aren't their "secret" map treated the same as any other map that goes through the foundry? Yes, they say they'll "put their map in the foundry for public review" but those are empty words when we know the same rules don't apply to their map... If the graphics or gameplay suck, and the talentless hacks who have to hide in their own forums can't get them up to foundry standards, will their project be binned like any other map project would? I kinda doubt it... it'll probably end up looking like a piece of Easter.

If the site thinks that have and develop a map outside the foundry system is a good thing ....I can't do nothing to stop them.
Honestly If a map comes out a piece of crap only people can "bin" that map, never forget the power of your paying customers.
If the map sucks, don't play it, go in the thread (when we will have it) and shout loudly: this map sucks, stop making maps without letting people who knows about map can look at them.
But for now I have to leave the benefit of the doubt, at least till we can play that map.
Instead, if what you're saying it's just a matter of principle, then natty...you don't own this site, I don't own this site so we can only shut up. As said I really think that special maps should come very rarely.
I don't know about the others map, but for Africa II the system we used was really similar to the foundry one, I'm strongly convinced that the foundry system can produce good maps we really need to refine it, but it works.

Also, if they're going to put their map for "public review" anyway, then what's the point of developing it in secret in the first place? The thing doesn't make any sense. Mark my words, they're going to phase out the foundry alltogether...

The point, i think is that the foundry system is too slow. If the site will let me change the things in the way I would change them it won't be so slow.

Hopefully it seems this time I can change some things, you know I'm trying to change the system to have it done for you all, but let me say that for now just few person send me a PM because the want to help.
So if I fight to change things, if i fight for you all...but when it comes to the point we can change things and you all can speak to change things, no one speak....
Although there're some things that maybe show less respect for the foundry and for the foundry people, in the same time the foundry people has less respect and interest in making their ownhome a better place.
Let me say this clear, there's too much new people that complain but do nothing when it comes to contribute to make thing better.

I don't think they are going to phase out the foundry, but on the opposite is the community that is doing that....look at this thing from the other point of view and you'll see how much I'm right.
People don't care about us, when they do, we respond with harsh words so the don't come back, we are also paying for a old crew who didn't want the outsider come into the foundry, they pissed the people around the forum to transform the foundry in a closed, small group and then leave the site to create their own site with a totally closed system in which they draw your map idea if they want to.

This is the foundry MrBenn and myself found, this is the foundry we're trying to save and put back to its former glory. But even if I try to put all my effort into it I can't do it alone. Look at it, those who are really foundry voices are 4, 5 no more i think...i start a discussion and it ends in nothing....

Remember the foundry are you guys, not the site....they can't close or phase out a group of people....to me it's more that one mapmaker doesn't care anymore about the others, too big egos there, too many bad answers to people who come there trying to ask, contribute.
Tell them they are shit and they will throw your shit back to you at some point.

I think this post is a mess and I'm not sure it's fully understandable (I'm writing while I'm at work so if something is not clear or confused, sorry)

It's interesting we're talking about the foundry in GD....but at least someone will read and reply in the thread!

Nobodies

[Gillipig]

Why can't there be two World XLs? We already have many maps of the world.

Christmas is a good map. It is the only defensible special map.

Let's just say I'm on that list nobodies could give you .


@nobodies
I think it's rather silly to have members of the entertainment team unsupervised make these maps. Focus lies on "unsupervised", as they're not even experts at map making so they definitely need the feedback and help of at least some foundry regulars.
I don't mind seeing them making maps in "semi" secret as long as not too many maps are being made this way, and that the end product is a good looking and enjoyable map.
But in all honesty I don't see why they should make these maps in the first place! It's not really logical that the entertainment team handles special maps when we have map specialists that could handle it better.
It's like putting CA's in charge of special events or tournament organizing, it just doesn't make any sense!

[DiM]

but look at my africa II map, done behind the scenes (just because there was a good cause to support) but with the collaboration of a small group of valid people, people who knows about maps.

you keep telling yourself that it won't make it true but you'll maybe get some peace of mind.
the "good cause" excuse was used by all other "secret" map makers.
"hey it's for christmas, it's for a good cause"
"hey an easter map will make people happy so it's a good cause"

also while i agree your map is much better than crap like st.pattrick's day or christmas it's still far from being what it could have been had it been through a proper foundry process.
the map was done behind the scenes and placed in final forge. this means that only minor tweaking will be done when in fact the map needs quite extensive work.

Personally I've decided to not give my support in the development of new behind the scenes map

would have been nice to reach this decision before you actually gave your support and made the africa map.

[qwert]

Natty,if you want to listen mine advice, just leave foundry imediatly, remove your project and move away. You only talk to wall, and you only lost your nerves. Thenobodies are not person who are responsibile for this decision. If Admin decide ,then you can not change this . Admin have powers to do everything,even when this its against hes own rules(classic Art and all other secret maps), so dont expect that you can win in this case, no mather how much you are right. This is hes games,and hes field, and hes rules.
Sad but true.

[Leehar]

Nicely said nobodies. It's always nice to hear those perspectives!

[natty dread]

Well, I wasn't going to post here any more, but a couple more thoughts:

Why do we need an entertainment team to create special maps? If those guys really want to make maps, they should just go to the foundry and do it like the real mapmakers do. If we need some "surprise" maps, fine, create a special project for them... it seems to me like the only reason we get maps made by the entertainment team is because the entertainment team wants to feel useful.

Funny thing is, look at the most popular map on the site, Classic. When classic was revamped, the situation was completely different from what it is now. The revamp of classic map wasn't given to some secret clubhouse of the entertainment team, no, it was made by a mapmaker in the foundry. It started out as just another foundry map, World Cities, until it was decided that this map should be made into the new classic, and then it was developed as the new Classic map in the foundry like all the other maps.

If the atmosphere had been then what it is now, the maker of World Cities would probably have been told "hey, you have to stop making your map, we're going to make a new classic map and yours is too similar"...

What changed between now and then? The answer is obvious, lackattack no longer trusts the Foundry to create the best possible maps for the site, despite all the evidence showing that maps made outside the foundry are inferior in quality every time.

[AndyDufresne]

What changed between now and then? The answer is obvious, lackattack no longer trusts the Foundry to create the best possible maps for the site, despite all the evidence showing that maps made outside the foundry are inferior in quality every time.

I think that is pretty false analysis. If Lackattack no longer trusted the Foundry, he'd probably just shut it down, and I can't ever see him doing that.

We have only a small number of seasonal or special maps that were created outside of the Foundry, and this number will always stay low. And going forward, project maps will have a Foundry development period as well.


--Andy

[ljex]

What changed between now and then? The answer is obvious, lackattack no longer trusts the Foundry to create the best possible maps for the site, despite all the evidence showing that maps made outside the foundry are inferior in quality every time.

I think that is pretty false analysis. If Lackattack no longer trusted the Foundry, he'd probably just shut it down, and I can't ever see him doing that.

We have only a small number of seasonal or special maps that were created outside of the Foundry, and this number will always stay low. And going forward, project maps will have a Foundry development period as well.


--Andy

why must their be project maps? would it not be better for the community if there were contest where people posted drafts and the map with the most votes received approval for development?

And by better for the community, i mean both the players who then get to decide what maps get developed if they so choose, and the map makers where the rights to make these maps is based on merit instead of something else. I don't see the justification to having some maps be developed privately even in seasonal maps...let alone non-seasonal maps.

[AndyDufresne]

There have been very few real project maps, which I see as different from Seasonal maps, though I can see how some would lump them all together. Project maps usually have a specific aim, in addition to the entertainment value (which is usually what a seasonal map strictly is) The Classic map is a great example of such a project map. The theme, some gameplay, and some graphics were solidified in the project stage before heading to the Foundry. We're essentially just following that example again for a special project. And we really have few such special projects!


--Andy

[qwert]

What changed between now and then? The answer is obvious, lackattack no longer trusts the Foundry to create the best possible maps for the site, despite all the evidence showing that maps made outside the foundry are inferior in quality every time.

I think that is pretty false analysis. If Lackattack no longer trusted the Foundry, he'd probably just shut it down, and I can't ever see him doing that.

We have only a small number of seasonal or special maps that were created outside of the Foundry, and this number will always stay low. And going forward, project maps will have a Foundry development period as well.


--Andy

Well if World XL will be seasonal map,then this is totaly diferent thing.
But then who will be crazy to create World XL to be seasonal map?
Small number of seasonal maps? 10-15 maybe?
For what i notice Natty can start creating WORLD XL, and in any moment someone fro madmins can jump and say "change this ,its will be similar to our map", and in this way Natty will dont have chance to finish map, because he dont know how this "project-seasonal map look".
You realy need to alove Natty to get acces to this hiden forum, so that he know how need to work on hes map.

[DiM]

project maps will have a Foundry development period as well.

you mean the beta period?

that's just a little more than nothing.
nothing major is changed in beta.
at most a few bonuses will be tweaked and some very minor graphic nitpicks will be solved.
any problems that require a lot of work will be dismissed and not fixed.
so basically the map is still 99% decided behind the scenes and the foundry's influence is minimal.

look at africa 2 map which is much much better than any other map ever made in secret.
the impassables not only look bad/wrong/funny but they're also hard to spot properly. the connections are completely counter-intuitive and without bob there's a very high chance you'll make mistakes.
so any subjective graphical flaws put aside, the map has a major problem. despite a very easy classic style gameplay, it actually manages to be a complicated map "thanks" to its poor design.
i highly doubt thenobodies will start redesigning the map now to change this.
the map will most likely remain as it is, people will play it now that it's new then once they see how it plays the interest in it will quickly fade away.