When is breaking a truce justifiable?

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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby Gillipig on Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:58 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
Homo Erectus wrote:Bumping a bit of an old thread I know, but what do people think of breaking a truce to stop the player meeting the victory conditions? By breaking I mean actually breaking and not something like giving prior warning, eg attacking immediately even though there's an agreed set turn notice for example

For me personally, the goal of any game is to end up the victor. If you (as in the general collective you) aren't playing to end up as the victor, and give a game away because you signed a deal that turned out to give more benefit to an opponent of yours, it is almost like not like giving it your all, which I would want of all my opponents!

However, there are some others out there I think that play a more meta-game, and see their diplomacy or win/loss in any game as only a part of their whole philosophy of gaming. Thus, honoring a truce or diplomatic agreement in their eyes might be acceptable loss in the grand scheme of their games.


--Andy


This is especially true for players that play a lot of large freestyle games on difficult maps against each other. The group of players that play 8 player freestyle on Third Crusade for example is very limited. Not more than like 20 are regulars. They play one another so often that breaking a truce to win the game is frowned upon. It's not considered smart. Someone who does that will be at a disadvantage from the start in the other games he'll play against them. A large freestyle game on Third Crusade is pure diplomatic warfare.
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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:42 am

Surely, it makes sense to taking into account the size or pool of players you are playing with, and how your actions might affect current and future games.


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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby KoolBak on Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:49 am

You want opinions?

Making truces / alliances is such a miserably spineless action in the first place that the entire question of breaking one is moot. No worse than entering into one in the first place.

Every player I've ever seen offer / make an alliance has been targeted and foed......in fact, that's how I met ol' Wacicha 6 years ago because be BOTH reacted the same way.....with honor....lol. And THAT'S why I love our group because there's at least 100 people that play with honor. Cowboy up.....win and lose like you got a pair. You wanna play teams, play teams. :D
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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby kentington on Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:52 pm

KoolBak wrote:You want opinions?

Making truces / alliances is such a miserably spineless action in the first place that the entire question of breaking one is moot. No worse than entering into one in the first place.

Every player I've ever seen offer / make an alliance has been targeted and foed......in fact, that's how I met ol' Wacicha 6 years ago because be BOTH reacted the same way.....with honor....lol. And THAT'S why I love our group because there's at least 100 people that play with honor. Cowboy up.....win and lose like you got a pair. You wanna play teams, play teams. :D


I agree with this.
If one opponent is getting to large the other opponents should naturally target the large one. But I wouldn't take troops away from the border with the small opponent. That is just asking to be attacked.
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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby Viceroy63 on Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:22 pm

The way that I understand it, a truce is a sort of temporary cease fire. So if it is a truce that we are discussing here then there is no breaking a truce but simply when does the truce end? If it is a temporary cease fire then it should be for a predetermined amout of time and that is when it ends according to any agreement with the parties involved in the truce.

Truce:
1. A temporary cessation or suspension of hostilities by agreement of the opposing sides; an armistice.
2. A respite from a disagreeable state of affairs.

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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:44 pm

When you're a prat.
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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby Sydney0103 on Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:42 pm

KoolBak wrote:You want opinions?

Making truces / alliances is such a miserably spineless action in the first place that the entire question of breaking one is moot. No worse than entering into one in the first place.

Every player I've ever seen offer / make an alliance has been targeted and foed......in fact, that's how I met ol' Wacicha 6 years ago because be BOTH reacted the same way.....with honor....lol. And THAT'S why I love our group because there's at least 100 people that play with honor. Cowboy up.....win and lose like you got a pair. You wanna play teams, play teams. :D


I haven't been out here on CC very long, but I "Totally" agree with everything he says here...I've said it to many people in games I have played, "If you want to play Teams, Play Teams!!"

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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:32 pm

I dont think making a truce is cowardly. What if its a 4 player game and two of the players form a truce. Does it not make sense that the remaining 2 make a truce as well to even the playing field?
I've made truces but I've never broken one.
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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:11 am

People that disparage diplomacy don't understand how to be diplomatic themselves.

In other words, if I can't fight well, then I'll yell at anyone who chooses to fight.
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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby KoolBak on Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:59 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:People that disparage diplomacy don't understand how to be diplomatic themselves.

In other words, if I can't fight well, then I'll yell at anyone who chooses to fight.


You say diplomat, I say pussy :lol:
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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:28 pm

KoolBak wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:People that disparage diplomacy don't understand how to be diplomatic themselves.

In other words, if I can't fight well, then I'll yell at anyone who chooses to fight.


You say diplomat, I say pussy :lol:

Now, now, lets compromise. Diplussy. Or maybe, Pussomat.

Anyways, I actually maybe agree with BBS. Ha.


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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby KoE_Sirius on Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:02 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:Then why not post the agreement and show us that as well?

The suicide thing is a different issue. He's definitely wrong there just saying that even in joking.

How come ? Its a valid tactic to threaten to suicide.Lots of players do it and it really makes an opponent think,even put them off game play.
To actually suicide is another matter. :-s
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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby KoolBak on Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:47 pm

OK AndyBallz....I respect differences of opinions (hell, I've managed to stay married for 24 years :shock: )...I didn't mean to offend guys (tosses bananas and poutine oot for all). :D
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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:40 pm

KoolBak wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:People that disparage diplomacy don't understand how to be diplomatic themselves.

In other words, if I can't fight well, then I'll yell at anyone who chooses to fight.


You say diplomat, I say pussy :lol:


You say pussy, I say strategerie.


As Sun Tzu says, the successful general is one who wins the war without deploying a single soldier. I'm still figuring out how to apply this to ConquerClub....
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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby Viceroy63 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:34 pm

In a way this is also a role playing game but the thing is that we carry our roles into every game we play. So if we break our agreements then eventually our reputations will proceed us.

If we make a truce it should be towards a certain specific round. For example: "Pink, can we have a truce until round 18?" Then on round 18 the first player to go can fire on.

BigBallinStalin wrote:As Sun Tzu says, the successful general is one who wins the war without deploying a single soldier. I'm still figuring out how to apply this to ConquerClub....


That's too deep for me man. LOL.
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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:12 am

Viceroy63 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:As Sun Tzu says, the successful general is one who wins the war without deploying a single soldier. I'm still figuring out how to apply this to ConquerClub....

Imagine a scenario where everyone in the game misses turns and deadbeats. The winner, if they similarly missed turns and never deployed would have deadbeated, but the game crowns them the victor without ever deploying a single soldier. Ha.

Not really a strategy one can employ though on command!


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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:28 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:In a way this is also a role playing game but the thing is that we carry our roles into every game we play. So if we break our agreements then eventually our reputations will proceed us.

If we make a truce it should be towards a certain specific round. For example: "Pink, can we have a truce until round 18?" Then on round 18 the first player to go can fire on.

BigBallinStalin wrote:As Sun Tzu says, the successful general is one who wins the war without deploying a single soldier. I'm still figuring out how to apply this to ConquerClub....


That's too deep for me man. LOL.


Haha, don't be discouraged. It goes like this:


You undermine the State, or create/take advantage of a tension between its rulers and their people. This renders the State/political leaders' ability to craft policy and wage war less effective. Much of this is performed through the 5th column (spies). A longer framework would incorporate making alliances against the enemy (or engaging in mutual trade embargos/sanctions). The internal pressure increases, and the external threat of force (from your own forces and from your allies) would hopefully force the enemy to sue for peace---before the physical war has even begun.

Thus, the successful general is one who wins the war without deploying a single soldier.
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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:33 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:As Sun Tzu says, the successful general is one who wins the war without deploying a single soldier. I'm still figuring out how to apply this to ConquerClub....

Imagine a scenario where everyone in the game misses turns and deadbeats. The winner, if they similarly missed turns and never deployed would have deadbeated, but the game crowns them the victor without ever deploying a single soldier. Ha.

Not really a strategy one can employ though on command!


--Andy


Have you noticed the domestic turmoil as of late? Declining numbers, people are pissed at the mods, they demand lackattack, no response for lackattack! THE END TIMES ARE NIGH!

WHO IS RESPONSIBLE!!

MAJORCOMMAND.COM, THAT'S WHO!

They've read Sun Tzu's Art of War. They're manipulating us against ourselves. We'll show them...... YES... we'll show them all right.


(inb4 Andy joke, "Everyone! Man your Banana Stations!")
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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby jimboston on Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:46 am

I think by warning him you are essentially giving notice that the alliance or truce is over. Thus there is no more truce at that point. If you attacked with no warning that would not be kosher.
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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby Serbia on Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:47 pm

Truces are meant to be broken. Yeah, it might be "cheap" to break a truce without warning, but hey, we're all playing to win, right? Next time, don't enter into a truce. Or if you do, never fully trust anyone. That's a surefire way to lose.

(I rarely enter into truces, ftr - can't remember the last time I did)
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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:14 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:In a way this is also a role playing game but the thing is that we carry our roles into every game we play. So if we break our agreements then eventually our reputations will proceed us.

If we make a truce it should be towards a certain specific round. For example: "Pink, can we have a truce until round 18?" Then on round 18 the first player to go can fire on.

BigBallinStalin wrote:As Sun Tzu says, the successful general is one who wins the war without deploying a single soldier. I'm still figuring out how to apply this to ConquerClub....


That's too deep for me man. LOL.


Haha, don't be discouraged. It goes like this:


You undermine the State, or create/take advantage of a tension between its rulers and their people. This renders the State/political leaders' ability to craft policy and wage war less effective. Much of this is performed through the 5th column (spies). A longer framework would incorporate making alliances against the enemy (or engaging in mutual trade embargos/sanctions). The internal pressure increases, and the external threat of force (from your own forces and from your allies) would hopefully force the enemy to sue for peace---before the physical war has even begun.

Thus, the successful general is one who wins the war without deploying a single soldier.


That sounds like a lot of work...
I always took it to mean that if you slowly explain to your enemy that resistance is pointless, the actual fighting becomes merely a formality.
Also, peace is not the goal, victory is the goal.
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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby Gillipig on Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:29 pm

ConquerClub is just not advanced enough to encompass all of Sun Tzu's philosophies. So we can ignore his "supreme excellence is to defeat your enemies without fighting". However great it is.
This one is one can be followed however:
'There are roads which must not be followed, armies which must not be attacked, towns which must not be besieged,positions which must not be contested.'
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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:10 pm

Gillipig wrote:ConquerClub is just not advanced enough to encompass all of Sun Tzu's philosophies. So we can ignore his "supreme excellence is to defeat your enemies without fighting". However great it is.
This one is one can be followed however:
'There are roads which must not be followed, armies which must not be attacked, towns which must not be besieged,positions which must not be contested.'


Sounds reasonable. O:)
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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby Viceroy63 on Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:35 pm

The only real way that I see where a player can win without deploying a single troop is to have such a huge reputation for awesomely winning games and putting other players to shame, that he simply stares his opponents into deadbeating on the game. LOL.
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Re: When is breaking a truce justifiable?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:02 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:In a way this is also a role playing game but the thing is that we carry our roles into every game we play. So if we break our agreements then eventually our reputations will proceed us.

If we make a truce it should be towards a certain specific round. For example: "Pink, can we have a truce until round 18?" Then on round 18 the first player to go can fire on.

BigBallinStalin wrote:As Sun Tzu says, the successful general is one who wins the war without deploying a single soldier. I'm still figuring out how to apply this to ConquerClub....


That's too deep for me man. LOL.


Haha, don't be discouraged. It goes like this:


You undermine the State, or create/take advantage of a tension between its rulers and their people. This renders the State/political leaders' ability to craft policy and wage war less effective. Much of this is performed through the 5th column (spies). A longer framework would incorporate making alliances against the enemy (or engaging in mutual trade embargos/sanctions). The internal pressure increases, and the external threat of force (from your own forces and from your allies) would hopefully force the enemy to sue for peace---before the physical war has even begun.

Thus, the successful general is one who wins the war without deploying a single soldier.


That sounds like a lot of work...
I always took it to mean that if you slowly explain to your enemy that resistance is pointless, the actual fighting becomes merely a formality.
Also, peace is not the goal, victory is the goal.


An enemy cannot rely solely on your explanations. You have to change his incentives and his mental calculations in order to convince him.

Victory can be many things. If your goal is to extract wealth from the defeated, then you can demand money when the enemy sues for peace--without having to use your armies. That would be a victory.

Another victory is the pursuit of total war, or war at all costs, and according to Sun Tzu, that ain't a victory but an inevitable loss for both sides.
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