Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby Ace Rimmer on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:00 am

I used to play a number of 24h freestyle games when I first joined, because I was freemie (and am again). That way I'd be guaranteed a move at least every 24h.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby queen victorious on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:02 am

Excellent analysis. I am your typical player who enjoys relatively basic maps and settings
who joined a clan and found myself playing maps and settings I was not prepared for and
didn't really enjoy. I also saw my rank drop from Captain to private at one point, and playing
catch-up isn't easy - it's frustratingly unenjoyable.
I've met so many people on here who are fun - i'd hate to see them disappear out of similar frustrations!

Maybe some of us have become embarrassed to admit that "the basics" are what we really
prefer?
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby jgordon1111 on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:33 am

Absolutley brilliant post changa, I for one agree.

Anyone who wants to play the good old fashioned game let me know, I will be glad at any time to set up the games,sunny,esc,auto,unlimited.

5-8 player games

matter of fact just set some up,everyone invited even if your foed you can join one to start as long as you dont suicide on me,if foed leave message here to be unfoed.
Last edited by jgordon1111 on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby The Voice on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:37 am

Incredible, I find myself agreeing with almost everything you've stated. I would, however, defy you to form a concrete definition of hardcore and then find the actual percentage of their makeup on this site rather than positing the percentage to be very small.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby natty dread on Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:03 pm

Army of GOD wrote:fog is fun for casual gamers (I consider myself a casual gamer with my 0 active games) but freestyle is literally only for the idiots or the hardcore gamers and is just generally unfun. I wouldn't miss any sleep over it being removed.


I agree with shorty here.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby Dibbun on Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:37 pm

If you want 'real risk' then you need an option where people can choose their own drop.

You already have a SoC, why not make a similar 'intermediate one' focused on getting people to Major? Improving education makes more sense to me than restricting freedom.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:55 pm

Mr Changsha wrote:
Woodruff wrote:I don't believe that logically follows.

First of all, I did not at all take your previous post as one denigrating intelligence of casual players at all, so I apologize that my response came across that way.

However, my point is that if the experienced casual player wants to gravitate toward the more complicated settings in order to increase their rank (as you suggest), that doesn't affect the health of the site in any way. Those who are getting pummeled on those maps/settings are still presumably happy in playing those maps/settings, since they are experienced enough to know the difference and haven't moved away from those maps/settings.

There are still a vast number of casual players like me who are perfectly happy chugging along on the fairly basic games and settings, so there is no dearth of opponents nor games being created within that vein. So I'm failing to see how the experienced players' choices affect the health of the site.

Rather, I believe this is wholeheartedly a matter of being able to keep some reasonable percentage of the new players around. Although I am open to the idea that I've completely misunderstood what you're trying to say, much as you thought I took your previous post to be one of denigration to the casual player.


I'm not sure I could put it more clearly than I have! Though I would suggest that you are considering the point from your own experience (which is fair enough), that of a player 'happy to chug along'. I think a lot more players would like to play on those settings as well, but feel they have to play freestyle or fog to increase their score. I know YOU don't care about that, I know there are others who don't either. But i think a lot players do.


But that's rather the point...they have the freedom to make that choice and "fall to the temptation", and they should have that freedom to make that choice once they're experienced players (and not before).

Mr Changsha wrote:I know my proposal is far too radical. People are obsessed with the idea that more choice is automatically a good thing. Even when such choices are destroying the integrity of the game. But I will continue to shout into the wind...


For experienced players, more choice absolutely is a good thing. I don't buy the general premise you're putting forward that the amount of choice is giving the site the "feel" (for lack of a better word) of a crap site or that those choices are destroying the integrity of the game.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby eddie2 on Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:08 pm

lol what happened to equal punishment for all.

this ban. posting in game chat after game was complete.. not even any player in game complaining about it....
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=174283

in regard to this sorry jr.. posting in game chat while game still going on. no warning no ban just a closed... with a comment stating this style of gaming was not abuse so he should not be chatting in it. (but it has been classed as abuse since then.)
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=110327&hilit=jr24+spamming

This is just a perfect example of how players are getting pissed off with the one rule for one and another for a different player. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby Armandolas on Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:15 pm

Heloo
We can choose a lot of reasons for memberships decline.
In my opinion there are 2 separate and simple memberships:
1-The ones that are old in CC
2-The newcomers

Reasons for 1 not buying premium again:
-Like everything in life, everything gets boring...we just find new games new hobbies etc.It happened to me in a lot of hobbies.It happens to almost everyone.
(So thanks for the game improvements like fog,trench,nuke,medals etc...Without this CC would have lost a lot more members.)
-Some ppl get so addicted to all this, then it happens that they think this is a real life drama to live.They get so involved that they would just cause troubles,intrigues and that off course will bother some other ppl that just dont care and get so annoyed by these people that they just looses patiente to hang around.

Reasons for 2 not buying premium:
1-Old fashioned WEBSITE...not attractive at all to a newcomer.This might seem irrelevant for all us...but its vital in the web these days.
Graphically its worth 0.Navigation speaking its medieval..and associated with this it NEEDS a GOOD menu to setup a CLEAN and EASY game.

A newcomer dont care about clans,conqueror style of playing or stupid arguments about team games or rank.
Not actually they dont care, but they dont know about it.Only when you are a member for a while u start to read forums etc, etc and start to discover those ridiculous things.
I can give my example that applyies to more than half of CC users..for the 2 1st years after registering, ive never been in the forums.
(Too bad because then i couldnt find that there are some really nice tournaments going on the community)
About premium...the only thing that makes people buy premium is to be able to play more than 4 games at a time
About freestyle..its a nice way of playing...i just dont like it..but when i was freemium that was my n1 choice.

Another important thing that someone said:
Promotion...without promotion work you will not have much success in business

Basically, like said in OP, the newcomer comes to play risk and thats what he will get(maybe u dont know but for the first games u are not able to see trench,fog and stuff like that)When u join u can only join simple games..so thats not even an argument.

So again there are only 2 main reasons: Old guys gets bored
New guys need a modern and website


(there are many nice ideias allover this thread)
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby hmsps on Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:24 pm

eddie2 wrote:lol what happened to equal punishment for all.

this ban. posting in game chat after game was complete.. not even any player in game complaining about it....
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=174283

in regard to this sorry jr.. posting in game chat while game still going on. no warning no ban just a closed... with a comment stating this style of gaming was not abuse so he should not be chatting in it. (but it has been classed as abuse since then.)
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=110327&hilit=jr24+spamming

This is just a perfect example of how players are getting pissed off with the one rule for one and another for a different player. :lol: :lol: :lol:
+1 there is a distinct lack of consistency and that is what a lot of users i talk to find very frustrating. Examples are some threads in C & A locked quickly with threats of punishments from mods and some are allowed to ramble and ramble without any consideration to lock. The suggestions forum is very poor, not mods fault i guess but they push for changes where frankly no one cares and adds nothing to gameplay but good honest suggestions are slapped away quite quickly with the comments "been suggested before etc" not a very progressive site.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby cooldeals on Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:44 pm

My first game on here was Halloween Hallows. No idea how that was a normal map? I got attacked by a territory halfway across the map. Somehow I won and for that I stayed. Eventually I bought premium for 3 reasons 1) I got to try speed games during Whac-A-Mod games. 2) I met players in chat who helped guide me through the site and 3) I won my first few games so I actually came back to the site a few times.

I think site enrollment would increase drastically if all users were able to play 1 speed game on the classic map at all times (no slots need to be open, etc.) If you want to play other stuff, buy premium. This competes with all the other risk options out there.

Also, make the Join Now screen more filterable like some have suggested to show more basic games (they already filter somewhat for new recruits, except Halloween Hallows isn't really a basic map for a newbie which is what I saw all over my Join Now screen but at least I didn't play Das Scholls).
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby Dibbun on Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:28 pm

eddie2 wrote:this ban. posting in game chat after game was complete.. not even any player in game complaining about it....
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=174283



That was a very good ruling, it was part of a broader context of Ir1sh Ace's unhealthy obsession with GlG that descended into cyber harassment. Ir1sh Ace should use this month vacation as an opportunity to find a quality therapist so maybe he can find out why he has to stalk people in order to find value in his life.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby IR1SH ACE on Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:25 pm

Dibbun wrote:
eddie2 wrote:this ban. posting in game chat after game was complete.. not even any player in game complaining about it....
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=174283



That was a very good ruling, it was part of a broader context of Ir1sh Ace's unhealthy obsession with GlG that descended into cyber harassment. Ir1sh Ace should use this month vacation as an opportunity to find a quality therapist so maybe he can find out why he has to stalk people in order to find value in his life.


the therapist said she was full up for the next few months dealing with your alter ego...unfortunately she would not disclose the name of this other personality that you have but it was going to be a big job to fix all the messed up shit going on inside his head...and I might as well return to the site as there really is nothing wrong with me....even got one of those rubber stamps saying Im "Sane"...good to be back and cheers for the bit of support I got...

one question Dibbun..did you go and read all the threads that involved me since you came back to the site or did you already know from your other account about all the GLG crusading that has being going on?....Im flattered if you felt the need to read up on me since returning.... ;)

P.S.....actually I dont really care....later Bro...
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby Mr Changsha on Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:51 pm

ahunda wrote:Oh, wow. At this point I am starting to completely disagree with Mr Changsha on almost everything he has said in his last posts. I don´t even know, where to start.

Point 1:

Mr Changsha wrote:''But they can set them up themselves!!!" I hear you all cry. But I wager the new player is rarely immediately premium. He must join a game.

This is wrong, I believe. Freemiums can start/create casual games ? They can not start private games, that´s all ?

Point 2:

Your definition of the casual player is seriously lacking. I had friends playing at this site, who never visited the forums, gave a rats ass about the Scoreboard, clans, etc. Only came here to play games and did so for years. Casual fun players in every meaning of the word, and guess what their preferred games were: Feudal Foggy, AoR Foggy, ...

Not everybody is playing special maps & settings, because they think, that it is the best way to gain points & rank. As a matter of fact, I actually believe, most play them, because they simply like to play them.

Point 3:

I just looked at the top of the Scoreboard, and from what I see there, at least 50% of the current Top 20-50 are Sequential players. Some of them almost exclusively playing Standard Esc games.

From my own experience I can tell you: Playing 6-8 player Standard Esc games, Sunny & on old school Risk maps, you can reach General and even 4000+ points. If you are good enough.

Your arguments in that regard sound rather like a personal grudge of someone, who has peaked with his personally preferred settings. And you have started that argument about 100 times in different threads in the past already. Yes, playing Standard Flat Rate games you will not reach the Top 20 of the Scoreboard. The reason being, that - different from Standard Esc games - beyond a certain point you don´t find enough players of similar rank anymore to fill your games.

And yet again, from personal experience, I can tell you, why: Unless you have lop-sided dice in the early rounds or someone makes a really stupid mistake, that upsets the entire balance of the game, a huge percentage of Flat Rate Standard games develop into never-ending stalemate building games. And after a few 100 of these games, they are about as exciting as watching paint go dry. Thus many players (myself included), once they have mastered this particular setting, get bored with it and move on to different games.

As I see it, the many special maps & settings are actually what keeps many old-timers interested, so they stick around & keep playing. Because there still is something new to discover, a new challenge to be had, a new interesting twist to the game to be tried.

Point 4:

I agree, that the scoring system is f*cked. But I don´t think, that this is the reason for the decline of the site.

I remember, that a couple of years ago there were never less than 18.000 players on the Scoreboard, and at times as many as 22-23.000. So there is a decline, that much is obvious. But let´s be honest: The discussions about the scoring system, about the Sequential-Freestyle conflict and about Farming issues we had already back then, years ago, when the member count was at its height.

Maybe the f*cked scoring system is a reason for some people to leave/quit the site. But there are many other reasons: People just getting bored with the game and moving on to something else, people undergoing changes in RL and not having time for it anymore, etc.

The problem is, that obviously not enough new players sign up & stay around. And there have been some very good posts here, why that might be so, and what could be done about that.

For players to become frustrated with the scoring system, they must have been around for quite a while already to realise the problems with it. These however are certainly not the main problems for the casual fun player, who - by definition - doesn´t care too deeply about the Scoreboard anyway.

Still: Certainly problems, that have gone unanswered for way too long, with pretty obvious solutions being suggested again and again: Separation of the Scoreboard. Sequential-Freestyle at the very least. If people insist, further separation might be possible (Singles - Team, whatever). But this, in my opinion at least, it is a different discussion entirely.

And now I stop myself, before this become any longer ... O:)


Points 1 and 2...the first is a technical question and I'm not convinced it is hugely key. Assuming you are right, then of course that element of my argument (of course I have so many...) must be disregarded. Concerning point 2, this is a question of our interpertations of motivation. I say they choose these settings to increase their chances of winning, you say they play them for fun. Perhaps unsurprisingly, I will continue to stick with my interpretation.

Point 3 is more crucial as I suspect you have missed an element of the argument. Btw I don't blame you at all for this. If someone else had written all this no doubt I would be entirely lost. i credit you for keeping up so well!! The issue is related to the Alpha or Beta players. Alpha players are prefectly capable of playing sunny, sequential and getting up to 4,000. Of course I know that. So that you have found many players of this type on the first page is irrelevent. The issue is with the Beta players. These guys have to pervert their settings (effectively farm) to compete with the Alpha players. Sadly, because the options are there, some Beta players turn to the dark side. This is what has created the sense of unfairness that pervades this site.

Therefore, the only way I can see to cleanse the site is to remove the offending settings.

Furthermore, players are always throwing this 'you have rank envy' comments my way. It is beneath you all. I write a huge amount about this game and the site, it is inevitable that I have to write about rank and forms that I don't play, and that I will offend some with my comments. If I was bothered about having a high rank I would go and get one. I have always been more interested in writing about the game (I don't think anyone could even begin to deny this), but I also (unlike many who write here a lot) am actually pretty good at it. I could certainly break 3000 playing sunny sequential and I could do it with a reasonable combination of games. I have analysed my game very carefully. I am not capable of breaking 3500 - just not good enough - but I am at that level below it. I choose not to push for a higher rank for many reasons...these were discussed in a previous thread.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby Mr Changsha on Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:07 pm

tkr4lf wrote:
Mr Changsha wrote:I think I can answer most of the replies by concerning myself with woodruff's post.

You didn't really address my points at all. The point about how it's inherently unfair to force players to play a certain type of game. If some people like to play sequential, escalating, sunny games, and others like to play sequential, no spoils, foggy games, why can't the both just play the game types that they like? Why must there be an abolishing of settings in order to force everybody to play the game type that you like best? Does that not seem a bit excessive?

Isn't there a happy medium somewhere that allows those who want to play more advanced settings the opportunity to do so, but still encourages the classic gameplay that you so desire? Or, in your opinion, must a draconian action be taken to force everybody to play the game that you (and most casual gamers, according to you anyway) want to play?

And how about the point that doing so would likely drive away some of the existing customers who have been here for years? I personally don't care all that much for sunny games anymore. Fog introduces new strategy into a tired old game. I've been playing RISK since I was about 10 years old with my dad and brother. After a while, playing that same game gets old. I can't speak for everybody, but I would be willing to wager that I wouldn't be alone in this, but personally, I would leave the site if they started abolishing settings in order to force me to play a certain game type that I don't want to play.

Can you actually address these points? Because you really didn't in your response to Woodruff.


I apologise for missing your posts. In my defence - as I am sure you understand - I had a lot of comments to deal with.

Firstly, with regards to the unfairness of forcing players to play without fog or freestyle, I can only say that if I believe these forms are corrupting the game and site as a whole, then what solution can I come to other than to say they should be removed? I've come to the conclusion that the reason that both new players are not staying AND older players are leaving is because of these settings. I've explained why in great detail. People have been wondering about this for years. I am giving you my reason for it. I think you would agree that IF I am right then there is only one solution.

The counter-argument is that people play varying combinations of tricky maps, fog and freestyle to increase their enjoyment. Of course that must be true in some cases. But overall I think they do it to WIN MORE. That is a different thing. People have spent years complaining about farming and ranching ruining the site. But most of you only consider page 1. I think these issues affect the whole site, the great majority of the players. Mainly because most on this site have by now chosen settings to try and get an unfair advantage. As I said, it has corrupted the whole site by encouraging everyone to get their 'extra little advantage'.

Finally, the driving away of members. This is a key point. I feel I lack the information to give a comprehensive answer. It is without question that a lot of members are playing a combination of these settings. Some would surely leave. But if I am right that the majority play in this way because others do and they don't want to be left behind (as in the pernicious effects of corruption) then once the offending settings were removed for everyone then they would play sunny, sequential again..which as I have tried to prove are are the settings most players genuinely want to play.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby natty dread on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:22 pm

Here's what I suggest.

  • Separate scoreboard for freestyle & sequential games (because they're really a different game)
  • Allow freemiums to play 1 speed game at a time on any map at any time
  • Revamp the site UI - including the actual game page, and the Join/Start/Find a game pages

With these changes, CC could turn this slump it is in now around to a second wind, and rise to the levels it was back in 2009.

There are some additional changes that would need to be made to improve CC:s success above that, but since they are not the most essential to the immediate success of CC (and I have ranted on enough about them elsewhere) I will not mention them here. Also because I don't think any of this is going to help anything - the admins don't listen, they just plug their ears and implement another idiotic feature after another (cough cough... conquer cup) and ignore the falling number of users. By all means, lackattack, prove me wrong... I dare you.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby Mr Changsha on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:32 pm

natty dread wrote:Here's what I suggest.

  • Separate scoreboard for freestyle & sequential games (because they're really a different game)
  • Allow freemiums to play 1 speed game at a time on any map at any time
  • Revamp the site UI - including the actual game page, and the Join/Start/Find a game pages

With these changes, CC could turn this slump it is in now around to a second wind, and rise to the levels it was back in 2009.

There are some additional changes that would need to be made to improve CC:s success above that, but since they are not the most essential to the immediate success of CC (and I have ranted on enough about them elsewhere) I will not mention them here. Also because I don't think any of this is going to help anything - the admins don't listen, they just plug their ears and implement another idiotic feature after another (cough cough... conquer cup) and ignore the falling number of users. By all means, lackattack, prove me wrong... I dare you.


How hard is it to have seperate freestyle and sequential scoreboards? People have been saying this is something the site needs since I first came here.

I have frankly given up on this ever being done. It is partly why my mind has moved on to more extreme solutions that could work within the existing set up.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:09 am

I can understand the point here. However, I did stay here at CC because of the good variety of maps. I did want to play a quads game on Waterloo. I also wanted to play a quads assassin, but that's another story.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby fusibaseball on Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:45 am

Excellent post Changsha, I really hope lack reads this thread because it's refreshing to see everyone collectively agree on (for the most part) solid intellectual solutions to keeping the new recruits interested the way they used to be. Any comments about graphics, interface, advertising, scoreboard, and tournaments are all irrelevant because this is a thread about new recruits people, not solutions that veterans want to see and actually use. Take it to the suggestions. Advertising is not needed because there is still a healthy inflow of players, just look at the bottom of the forum page and look at "Newest Player Joined" line...there's one every few minutes or so. Here are the cut-and-dry, easy to implement solutions which are the obvious answers to the chronic problem plaguing CC...

1. A quick 2/3/4/5 minute tutorial automatically played when a new recruit signs up, educating the basic functions and know-how of where to go. The extensive list of options on left and top are intimidating. Same video for everyone, automated
2. Categorize maps into at least simple vs. complex. I came here and stayed because of versatility on maps, keeps the gameplay interesting but the long list of maps is a big turn-off.
3. Offer limited speed/real-time games for players under 50 games or so to at least give them a taste of what speed games are like. A large portion leave because waiting 24 hours or longer for each turn is awful.
4. Reverse the order of Join A Page so that the freshest/simple options are right at the start, not stupid quads Das Schloss games from BRADDY which absolutely nobody likes. Or just offer a new page titled Join Classic Games where the options are all Classic, small, escalating/flat rate, sunny games which 100% of new players come here with the intention of playing.

Once again, may I reiterate myself, any comments regarding advertising, scoreboard, and tournaments are irrelevant because this is a serious thread about what needs to be done to keep more new recruits interested. New recruits practically never use these features, only veterans/old players use these. Take it to suggestions.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby agentcom on Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:26 am

Mr Changsha wrote:The site is made for a hardcore of probably a thousand (at most) players. That's why the membership is dropping year by year and why, if CC is not very careful, they will finally lose their site. CC needs to get back to promoting Risk as what this site is about.


I read through your whole post, but not the comments. So, I'm sorry if this has been said.

An alternative to your doomsday prediction: CC will establish itself as a niche where people who want a little change on the classic game can come to play. While many freemiums may leave the site after a poor first experience, I have met many players who revel in the challenge of games that are not like that old-fashioned game of Risk that brought them to this site. There are other places on the internet where you can go play actual Risk. How many of you have been to Pogo? Many, I presume. What sets the games you're talking about apart from Pogo? Not much. In order to succeed, you need to be different. And I'd rather pay my $25 here then play old-school over there. I like that they're out there. I love fog, different fortification and card settings, the ability to play in teams, etc.

If they're looking for Risk, they can come here and see if they want to indulge in the unique game play options. If they like them, they might pay for more. If they don't like them ... well why would they pay to be here when they can hop on Pogo, etc.? The benefits of Premium are: More games, speed games, and ability to send invites. How many people that are just wanting to play the old school classic game would pay to be here for any of those options? Not many because you can get your fix over at Pogo.

The users that you say are taking over the site are the ones that want more games and the option to play speed games on whatever map they want. In other words, the direction that this site is heading is a direct response to the desires of the paying customers. That's not a problem so much as it is a good business model.

If CC becomes more like old-school Risk, it will lose the only competitive advantage it has over these other sites. Differentiation is the key to success here (especially for CC who doesn't hold the rights to the original game). Players that want to play Risk will naturally tend to flow to sites that offer Risk. And, tbh, Hasbro can probably give them that classic experience that they are looking for better than CC can. But CC's opportunity to succeed is based on being similar to but distinct from that classic game. The users that desire the mix of settings and maps that make CC different will be the ones that stay here and pay to play.

The thing you criticize is the very thing (the only thing?) that will give CC a shot at success.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby jltile1 on Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:09 pm

agentcom wrote:
Mr Changsha wrote:The site is made for a hardcore of probably a thousand (at most) players. That's why the membership is dropping year by year and why, if CC is not very careful, they will finally lose their site. CC needs to get back to promoting Risk as what this site is about.


I read through your whole post, but not the comments. So, I'm sorry if this has been said.

An alternative to your doomsday prediction: CC will establish itself as a niche where people who want a little change on the classic game can come to play. While many freemiums may leave the site after a poor first experience, I have met many players who revel in the challenge of games that are not like that old-fashioned game of Risk that brought them to this site. There are other places on the internet where you can go play actual Risk. How many of you have been to Pogo? Many, I presume. What sets the games you're talking about apart from Pogo? Not much. In order to succeed, you need to be different. And I'd rather pay my $25 here then play old-school over there. I like that they're out there. I love fog, different fortification and card settings, the ability to play in teams, etc.

If they're looking for Risk, they can come here and see if they want to indulge in the unique game play options. If they like them, they might pay for more. If they don't like them ... well why would they pay to be here when they can hop on Pogo, etc.? The benefits of Premium are: More games, speed games, and ability to send invites. How many people that are just wanting to play the old school classic game would pay to be here for any of those options? Not many because you can get your fix over at Pogo.

The users that you say are taking over the site are the ones that want more games and the option to play speed games on whatever map they want. In other words, the direction that this site is heading is a direct response to the desires of the paying customers. That's not a problem so much as it is a good business model.

If CC becomes more like old-school Risk, it will lose the only competitive advantage it has over these other sites. Differentiation is the key to success here (especially for CC who doesn't hold the rights to the original game). Players that want to play Risk will naturally tend to flow to sites that offer Risk. And, tbh, Hasbro can probably give them that classic experience that they are looking for better than CC can. But CC's opportunity to succeed is based on being similar to but distinct from that classic game. The users that desire the mix of settings and maps that make CC different will be the ones that stay here and pay to play.

The thing you criticize is the very thing (the only thing?) that will give CC a shot at success.



I some what agree but I think your missing the point. The point is how to keep new players and stop the decline of players. Yes once your here for a while the maps and setting get fun to play with. But as a lot of people have said it has also been a serious way of people and teams of people farming the newer players possibly making them leave. Also the fact still remains that most people are coming here to play risk or risk style games.

Fusi baseball also stated that giving speed games like under 50 games that is one of the best ideas as other sites do the same thing, get them hooked. Give a little to get more in return, but also block the games and settings they can play. Yes there needs to be a video or something to watch, or someone to talk to before they go playing games. It sucks but seems like every player needs a warning about being farmed at some point on the site.

Just think how people are finding this site agent there not googling lunar war, or city mogal, or where can I play freestyle games. They are lookin up risk, CC don't even pop up in stragety games at least for me. I do think CC offers a lot but it also takes a lot that some new players may have trouble with. If you simply make the site easy at least in the beginning and someone to show them around you would have a lot more paying and staying.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby natty dread on Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:48 pm

The main point is still that 90% of potential new players quit when they find out the games they can play are not real time. Fixing that alone would probably increase the retention rate by a huge margin.

Especially when there are already sites out there where you can play speed games for free.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby ahunda on Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:51 pm

Mr Changsha wrote:Points 1 and 2...the first is a technical question and I'm not convinced it is hugely key. Assuming you are right, then of course that element of my argument (of course I have so many...) must be disregarded. Concerning point 2, this is a question of our interpertations of motivation. I say they choose these settings to increase their chances of winning, you say they play them for fun. Perhaps unsurprisingly, I will continue to stick with my interpretation.

Well, let´s be real here: Everybody wants to win. Nobody here starts a game and hopes to lose. Even the most casual fun player prefers winning over losing, and I´d guess, that even the most casual fun player will feel a certain pride/satisfaction, when reaching a certain rank (Lieutenant, Captain, Major, whatever) for the first time.

The distinction between "casual" fun & competitive "hardcore" players should be in their main motivation: Do they come here first and foremost to kill some time & play some games, or do they have as their main objective to reach a certain rank & climb the Scoreboard. The borders are somewhat fleeting there, I guess.

Mr Changsha wrote:Point 3 is more crucial as I suspect you have missed an element of the argument. Btw I don't blame you at all for this. If someone else had written all this no doubt I would be entirely lost. i credit you for keeping up so well!! The issue is related to the Alpha or Beta players. Alpha players are prefectly capable of playing sunny, sequential and getting up to 4,000. Of course I know that. So that you have found many players of this type on the first page is irrelevent. The issue is with the Beta players. These guys have to pervert their settings (effectively farm) to compete with the Alpha players. Sadly, because the options are there, some Beta players turn to the dark side. This is what has created the sense of unfairness that pervades this site.

Ok. I get the point. We have all seen those threads in the forum, where some lower ranked player is asking for advice how to improve his rank, and somehow this community seems to think, that the best way is specialising on a certain map & settings. At least that seems to be the standard recommendation.

It is, of course, complete nonsense. Whatever map & setting you choose, if you don´t have the skill, you won´t go far. And if you have the skill, you should be able to apply it to different maps & settings.

Coming to think of it, it seems a kind of double-standard: To have a community, that likes to cry so much about Farming & undeserving players on the top of the Scoreboard, and yet recommending new players again and again to specialise. I reckon, some of the same people giving that advice might cry out half a year later, when a player actually managed to rise to Conqueror by following their own advice ...

Mr Changsha wrote:Therefore, the only way I can see to cleanse the site is to remove the offending settings.

And this is, where we simply disagree.

First of all, the "offending settings" seem to be very arbitrary here. There is general agreement, that most abuse & Farming is happening in Freestyle. But Fog ? Where do you get that idea from ? I don´t see anything wrong whatsoever with Fog ...

But more importantly, I think, you are throwing out the child with the bath water here.

natty dread wrote:
  • Separate scoreboard for freestyle & sequential games (because they're really a different game)
  • Allow freemiums to play 1 speed game at a time on any map at any time
  • Revamp the site UI - including the actual game page, and the Join/Start/Find a game pages

These changes should achieve a lot:

The separation of the Scoreboard would satisfy many old-timers, and the Sequential Scoreboard would have real merit of measuring skill at the game.

Revamping the interface in the discussed manner (hiding games with advanced settings by default) would make the site much easier to navigate for first time visitors and put an immediate end to a lot of Farming issues, whilst still giving people the choice to play advanced settings & maps, if they want to.

And as you can see from the feedback here, those advanced maps & settings actually appeal to many. Again not necessarily because of point/rank issues, but simply because they make for interesting & challenging variations of the game. In my opinion, they should be seen as a strength of the site, not a weakness.

In this way you could have both: Old school Risk games and advanced variations on special maps with special settings. And people would have the freedom to choose for themselves. I am someone, who always has some very old school Standard Esc games going, but also very much likes to explore the more special maps & settings (as long as it is Sequential).

The Speed Game option for Freemiums would simply get more people hooked into the site and make them come back for more to eventually discover what CC has to offer beyond that. And it would also revive the Speed Games themselves.

jltile1 wrote:Fusi baseball also stated that giving speed games like under 50 games that is one of the best ideas as other sites do the same thing, get them hooked.

This is a big No however. It would create a flood of Multis. After having played their 50 Speed games, people would simply open a new account. If you give the Speed option to Freemiums, you have to find other incentives to make them buy Premium.

I think, it would pay off anyway. A far greater number of first time visitors would have a positive first experience & come back for more.

As for all those ideas of video instructions & little volunteer helpers taking new players by the hand, I think, it´s nonsense and not needed at all. The basic Risk rules are simple, and the interface changes would solve the main problems for new visitors. Once someone clicks the "Advanced Settings/Maps" button, he knows, that he is entering unknown territory and does so willingly & by his own choice. You can hardly put up a different video for all the different maps (from Feudal to Stalingrad).

But maybe there should be a "Warning" on top of the advanced "Join/Find/Start a Game" pages, that includes a link to the BOB forum thread, because frankly speaking, some of the more complicated maps seem almost unplayable to me without BOB. And hoping, that lack would finally integrate BOB into the site, now that really seems to be asking too much ...
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby Vid_FISO on Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:31 pm

If the thought is that RT games are an important draw then why not give all fremiums a free weekend "upgrade" at some point to give them a taste and then see how many a driven to pay a sub to continue playing?

Might also be worth considering giving fremiums a "clan slot" to get more to join in there?
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby Mr Changsha on Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:01 pm

I decided to give the quote button a break..so in reply to Ahunda and Agentcom:

1. Specialisation: There is nothing intrinsically wrong with specialisation, by god I've preached it often enough myself. I refuse to accept it is nothing other than superb to choose a map and settings and master it. The question is the settings. Doing it on freestyle fog and a tricky map (say 1vs1) will always lead to accusations of farming, playing quads sequential sunny is in my view a legitimate striving for excellence.

2. Fog: I admit this is tricky. On the one hand I do feel high ranked teams setting up public foggy games are in the main hoping to score easy wins. I don't feel they are adding much to the site and it certainly has the capability of becoming a 'farming setting'. Yet, many foggy games are played in a great spirit, whether teams or standard. I was impressed by the suggestion above to implement a rank limit for foggy games (I would suggest 1600).

It is the COMBINATION of foggy AND freestyle which is my main concern. A rank limit is the absolute minimum I would apply to that setting. There are reasonable arguments to suggest that in isolation they are acceptable. But combined?

Remember that the key to this thread is the concept of getting more people playing standard Risk. Arguments over the validity of certain settings are important (and I truly believe that the site would benefit from some of the changes proposed), but I would admit I deliberately distracted the flow of thread, mainly because I was horribly disturbed by everyone agreeing with me. My threads are not meant to be so civilised!!! I prefer to deal with pure rage, rather than strange equanimity. It is disturbing to me.

Turning to Agentcom, I think your post was excellently written and well-argued. I thank you for giving us the opposing view point. However, I think your arguments failed to address the enormous issue of WHY the site's membership has dropped so alarmingly. That is the point of this thread, so I feel you will have to explain how the game's development (which you feel has been in the right direction) has managed to evolve while membership is dropping... and that this is still a good thing.

A tricky task...I would think.

Finally, remember that I am not criticising team games, or complicated maps (though i have before), or trench warfare, or 1vs1, or the rise of the clans (though again I have expressed doubts) etc etc. I want new players having their first experiences on the classic risk board, sequentially and in a sunny fashion. I want them (and other newer or casual players) to be able to avoid farming settings AND have far more options for games of standard Risk that they would enjoy. The most difficult leap I am asking you all to make is that the reason classic standard games have dropped off is not because (as has been said before and seemingly accepted) that members are bored of those settings, but rather that the membership as a whole has been corrupted by the idea of securing an easy win due to the fog and freestyle settings. Effectively I am saying that due to the settings, the great majority of the members are employed in trying to steal the candy from other players, rather than trying to play a fair game of Risk...i.e sunny and sequential.

And that is why the site's membership has dropped like a stone. Many people don't want to play on such a site.
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