Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby Ace Rimmer on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:00 am

I used to play a number of 24h freestyle games when I first joined, because I was freemie (and am again). That way I'd be guaranteed a move at least every 24h.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby queen victorious on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:02 am

Excellent analysis. I am your typical player who enjoys relatively basic maps and settings
who joined a clan and found myself playing maps and settings I was not prepared for and
didn't really enjoy. I also saw my rank drop from Captain to private at one point, and playing
catch-up isn't easy - it's frustratingly unenjoyable.
I've met so many people on here who are fun - i'd hate to see them disappear out of similar frustrations!

Maybe some of us have become embarrassed to admit that "the basics" are what we really
prefer?
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby jgordon1111 on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:33 am

Absolutley brilliant post changa, I for one agree.

Anyone who wants to play the good old fashioned game let me know, I will be glad at any time to set up the games,sunny,esc,auto,unlimited.

5-8 player games

matter of fact just set some up,everyone invited even if your foed you can join one to start as long as you dont suicide on me,if foed leave message here to be unfoed.
Last edited by jgordon1111 on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby The Voice on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:37 am

Incredible, I find myself agreeing with almost everything you've stated. I would, however, defy you to form a concrete definition of hardcore and then find the actual percentage of their makeup on this site rather than positing the percentage to be very small.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby natty dread on Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:03 pm

Army of GOD wrote:fog is fun for casual gamers (I consider myself a casual gamer with my 0 active games) but freestyle is literally only for the idiots or the hardcore gamers and is just generally unfun. I wouldn't miss any sleep over it being removed.


I agree with shorty here.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby Dibbun on Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:37 pm

If you want 'real risk' then you need an option where people can choose their own drop.

You already have a SoC, why not make a similar 'intermediate one' focused on getting people to Major? Improving education makes more sense to me than restricting freedom.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:55 pm

Mr Changsha wrote:
Woodruff wrote:I don't believe that logically follows.

First of all, I did not at all take your previous post as one denigrating intelligence of casual players at all, so I apologize that my response came across that way.

However, my point is that if the experienced casual player wants to gravitate toward the more complicated settings in order to increase their rank (as you suggest), that doesn't affect the health of the site in any way. Those who are getting pummeled on those maps/settings are still presumably happy in playing those maps/settings, since they are experienced enough to know the difference and haven't moved away from those maps/settings.

There are still a vast number of casual players like me who are perfectly happy chugging along on the fairly basic games and settings, so there is no dearth of opponents nor games being created within that vein. So I'm failing to see how the experienced players' choices affect the health of the site.

Rather, I believe this is wholeheartedly a matter of being able to keep some reasonable percentage of the new players around. Although I am open to the idea that I've completely misunderstood what you're trying to say, much as you thought I took your previous post to be one of denigration to the casual player.


I'm not sure I could put it more clearly than I have! Though I would suggest that you are considering the point from your own experience (which is fair enough), that of a player 'happy to chug along'. I think a lot more players would like to play on those settings as well, but feel they have to play freestyle or fog to increase their score. I know YOU don't care about that, I know there are others who don't either. But i think a lot players do.


But that's rather the point...they have the freedom to make that choice and "fall to the temptation", and they should have that freedom to make that choice once they're experienced players (and not before).

Mr Changsha wrote:I know my proposal is far too radical. People are obsessed with the idea that more choice is automatically a good thing. Even when such choices are destroying the integrity of the game. But I will continue to shout into the wind...


For experienced players, more choice absolutely is a good thing. I don't buy the general premise you're putting forward that the amount of choice is giving the site the "feel" (for lack of a better word) of a crap site or that those choices are destroying the integrity of the game.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby eddie2 on Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:08 pm

lol what happened to equal punishment for all.

this ban. posting in game chat after game was complete.. not even any player in game complaining about it....
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=174283

in regard to this sorry jr.. posting in game chat while game still going on. no warning no ban just a closed... with a comment stating this style of gaming was not abuse so he should not be chatting in it. (but it has been classed as abuse since then.)
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=110327&hilit=jr24+spamming

This is just a perfect example of how players are getting pissed off with the one rule for one and another for a different player. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby Armandolas on Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:15 pm

Heloo
We can choose a lot of reasons for memberships decline.
In my opinion there are 2 separate and simple memberships:
1-The ones that are old in CC
2-The newcomers

Reasons for 1 not buying premium again:
-Like everything in life, everything gets boring...we just find new games new hobbies etc.It happened to me in a lot of hobbies.It happens to almost everyone.
(So thanks for the game improvements like fog,trench,nuke,medals etc...Without this CC would have lost a lot more members.)
-Some ppl get so addicted to all this, then it happens that they think this is a real life drama to live.They get so involved that they would just cause troubles,intrigues and that off course will bother some other ppl that just dont care and get so annoyed by these people that they just looses patiente to hang around.

Reasons for 2 not buying premium:
1-Old fashioned WEBSITE...not attractive at all to a newcomer.This might seem irrelevant for all us...but its vital in the web these days.
Graphically its worth 0.Navigation speaking its medieval..and associated with this it NEEDS a GOOD menu to setup a CLEAN and EASY game.

A newcomer dont care about clans,conqueror style of playing or stupid arguments about team games or rank.
Not actually they dont care, but they dont know about it.Only when you are a member for a while u start to read forums etc, etc and start to discover those ridiculous things.
I can give my example that applyies to more than half of CC users..for the 2 1st years after registering, ive never been in the forums.
(Too bad because then i couldnt find that there are some really nice tournaments going on the community)
About premium...the only thing that makes people buy premium is to be able to play more than 4 games at a time
About freestyle..its a nice way of playing...i just dont like it..but when i was freemium that was my n1 choice.

Another important thing that someone said:
Promotion...without promotion work you will not have much success in business

Basically, like said in OP, the newcomer comes to play risk and thats what he will get(maybe u dont know but for the first games u are not able to see trench,fog and stuff like that)When u join u can only join simple games..so thats not even an argument.

So again there are only 2 main reasons: Old guys gets bored
New guys need a modern and website


(there are many nice ideias allover this thread)
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby hmsps on Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:24 pm

eddie2 wrote:lol what happened to equal punishment for all.

this ban. posting in game chat after game was complete.. not even any player in game complaining about it....
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=174283

in regard to this sorry jr.. posting in game chat while game still going on. no warning no ban just a closed... with a comment stating this style of gaming was not abuse so he should not be chatting in it. (but it has been classed as abuse since then.)
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=110327&hilit=jr24+spamming

This is just a perfect example of how players are getting pissed off with the one rule for one and another for a different player. :lol: :lol: :lol:
+1 there is a distinct lack of consistency and that is what a lot of users i talk to find very frustrating. Examples are some threads in C & A locked quickly with threats of punishments from mods and some are allowed to ramble and ramble without any consideration to lock. The suggestions forum is very poor, not mods fault i guess but they push for changes where frankly no one cares and adds nothing to gameplay but good honest suggestions are slapped away quite quickly with the comments "been suggested before etc" not a very progressive site.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby cooldeals on Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:44 pm

My first game on here was Halloween Hallows. No idea how that was a normal map? I got attacked by a territory halfway across the map. Somehow I won and for that I stayed. Eventually I bought premium for 3 reasons 1) I got to try speed games during Whac-A-Mod games. 2) I met players in chat who helped guide me through the site and 3) I won my first few games so I actually came back to the site a few times.

I think site enrollment would increase drastically if all users were able to play 1 speed game on the classic map at all times (no slots need to be open, etc.) If you want to play other stuff, buy premium. This competes with all the other risk options out there.

Also, make the Join Now screen more filterable like some have suggested to show more basic games (they already filter somewhat for new recruits, except Halloween Hallows isn't really a basic map for a newbie which is what I saw all over my Join Now screen but at least I didn't play Das Scholls).
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby Dibbun on Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:28 pm

eddie2 wrote:this ban. posting in game chat after game was complete.. not even any player in game complaining about it....
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=174283



That was a very good ruling, it was part of a broader context of Ir1sh Ace's unhealthy obsession with GlG that descended into cyber harassment. Ir1sh Ace should use this month vacation as an opportunity to find a quality therapist so maybe he can find out why he has to stalk people in order to find value in his life.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby IR1SH ACE on Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:25 pm

Dibbun wrote:
eddie2 wrote:this ban. posting in game chat after game was complete.. not even any player in game complaining about it....
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=174283



That was a very good ruling, it was part of a broader context of Ir1sh Ace's unhealthy obsession with GlG that descended into cyber harassment. Ir1sh Ace should use this month vacation as an opportunity to find a quality therapist so maybe he can find out why he has to stalk people in order to find value in his life.


the therapist said she was full up for the next few months dealing with your alter ego...unfortunately she would not disclose the name of this other personality that you have but it was going to be a big job to fix all the messed up shit going on inside his head...and I might as well return to the site as there really is nothing wrong with me....even got one of those rubber stamps saying Im "Sane"...good to be back and cheers for the bit of support I got...

one question Dibbun..did you go and read all the threads that involved me since you came back to the site or did you already know from your other account about all the GLG crusading that has being going on?....Im flattered if you felt the need to read up on me since returning.... ;)

P.S.....actually I dont really care....later Bro...
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby Mr Changsha on Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:51 pm

ahunda wrote:Oh, wow. At this point I am starting to completely disagree with Mr Changsha on almost everything he has said in his last posts. I don´t even know, where to start.

Point 1:

Mr Changsha wrote:''But they can set them up themselves!!!" I hear you all cry. But I wager the new player is rarely immediately premium. He must join a game.

This is wrong, I believe. Freemiums can start/create casual games ? They can not start private games, that´s all ?

Point 2:

Your definition of the casual player is seriously lacking. I had friends playing at this site, who never visited the forums, gave a rats ass about the Scoreboard, clans, etc. Only came here to play games and did so for years. Casual fun players in every meaning of the word, and guess what their preferred games were: Feudal Foggy, AoR Foggy, ...

Not everybody is playing special maps & settings, because they think, that it is the best way to gain points & rank. As a matter of fact, I actually believe, most play them, because they simply like to play them.

Point 3:

I just looked at the top of the Scoreboard, and from what I see there, at least 50% of the current Top 20-50 are Sequential players. Some of them almost exclusively playing Standard Esc games.

From my own experience I can tell you: Playing 6-8 player Standard Esc games, Sunny & on old school Risk maps, you can reach General and even 4000+ points. If you are good enough.

Your arguments in that regard sound rather like a personal grudge of someone, who has peaked with his personally preferred settings. And you have started that argument about 100 times in different threads in the past already. Yes, playing Standard Flat Rate games you will not reach the Top 20 of the Scoreboard. The reason being, that - different from Standard Esc games - beyond a certain point you don´t find enough players of similar rank anymore to fill your games.

And yet again, from personal experience, I can tell you, why: Unless you have lop-sided dice in the early rounds or someone makes a really stupid mistake, that upsets the entire balance of the game, a huge percentage of Flat Rate Standard games develop into never-ending stalemate building games. And after a few 100 of these games, they are about as exciting as watching paint go dry. Thus many players (myself included), once they have mastered this particular setting, get bored with it and move on to different games.

As I see it, the many special maps & settings are actually what keeps many old-timers interested, so they stick around & keep playing. Because there still is something new to discover, a new challenge to be had, a new interesting twist to the game to be tried.

Point 4:

I agree, that the scoring system is f*cked. But I don´t think, that this is the reason for the decline of the site.

I remember, that a couple of years ago there were never less than 18.000 players on the Scoreboard, and at times as many as 22-23.000. So there is a decline, that much is obvious. But let´s be honest: The discussions about the scoring system, about the Sequential-Freestyle conflict and about Farming issues we had already back then, years ago, when the member count was at its height.

Maybe the f*cked scoring system is a reason for some people to leave/quit the site. But there are many other reasons: People just getting bored with the game and moving on to something else, people undergoing changes in RL and not having time for it anymore, etc.

The problem is, that obviously not enough new players sign up & stay around. And there have been some very good posts here, why that might be so, and what could be done about that.

For players to become frustrated with the scoring system, they must have been around for quite a while already to realise the problems with it. These however are certainly not the main problems for the casual fun player, who - by definition - doesn´t care too deeply about the Scoreboard anyway.

Still: Certainly problems, that have gone unanswered for way too long, with pretty obvious solutions being suggested again and again: Separation of the Scoreboard. Sequential-Freestyle at the very least. If people insist, further separation might be possible (Singles - Team, whatever). But this, in my opinion at least, it is a different discussion entirely.

And now I stop myself, before this become any longer ... O:)


Points 1 and 2...the first is a technical question and I'm not convinced it is hugely key. Assuming you are right, then of course that element of my argument (of course I have so many...) must be disregarded. Concerning point 2, this is a question of our interpertations of motivation. I say they choose these settings to increase their chances of winning, you say they play them for fun. Perhaps unsurprisingly, I will continue to stick with my interpretation.

Point 3 is more crucial as I suspect you have missed an element of the argument. Btw I don't blame you at all for this. If someone else had written all this no doubt I would be entirely lost. i credit you for keeping up so well!! The issue is related to the Alpha or Beta players. Alpha players are prefectly capable of playing sunny, sequential and getting up to 4,000. Of course I know that. So that you have found many players of this type on the first page is irrelevent. The issue is with the Beta players. These guys have to pervert their settings (effectively farm) to compete with the Alpha players. Sadly, because the options are there, some Beta players turn to the dark side. This is what has created the sense of unfairness that pervades this site.

Therefore, the only way I can see to cleanse the site is to remove the offending settings.

Furthermore, players are always throwing this 'you have rank envy' comments my way. It is beneath you all. I write a huge amount about this game and the site, it is inevitable that I have to write about rank and forms that I don't play, and that I will offend some with my comments. If I was bothered about having a high rank I would go and get one. I have always been more interested in writing about the game (I don't think anyone could even begin to deny this), but I also (unlike many who write here a lot) am actually pretty good at it. I could certainly break 3000 playing sunny sequential and I could do it with a reasonable combination of games. I have analysed my game very carefully. I am not capable of breaking 3500 - just not good enough - but I am at that level below it. I choose not to push for a higher rank for many reasons...these were discussed in a previous thread.
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Re: Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

Postby Mr Changsha on Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:07 pm

tkr4lf wrote:
Mr Changsha wrote:I think I can answer most of the replies by concerning myself with woodruff's post.

You didn't really address my points at all. The point about how it's inherently unfair to force players to play a certain type of game. If some people like to play sequential, escalating, sunny games, and others like to play sequential, no spoils, foggy games, why can't the both just play the game types that they like? Why must there be an abolishing of settings in order to force everybody to play the game type that you like best? Does that not seem a bit excessive?

Isn't there a happy medium somewhere that allows those who want to play more advanced settings the opportunity to do so, but still encourages the classic gameplay that you so desire? Or, in your opinion, must a draconian action be taken to force everybody to play the game that you (and most casual gamers, according to you anyway) want to play?

And how about the point that doing so would likely drive away some of the existing customers who have been here for years? I personally don't care all that much for sunny games anymore. Fog introduces new strategy into a tired old game. I've been playing RISK since I was about 10 years old with my dad and brother. After a while, playing that same game gets old. I can't speak for everybody, but I would be willing to wager that I wouldn't be alone in this, but personally, I would leave the site if they started abolishing settings in order to force me to play a certain game type that I don't want to play.

Can you actually address these points? Because you really didn't in your response to Woodruff.


I apologise for missing your posts. In my defence - as I am sure you understand - I had a lot of comments to deal with.

Firstly, with regards to the unfairness of forcing players to play without fog or freestyle, I can only say that if I believe these forms are corrupting the game and site as a whole, then what solution can I come to other than to say they should be removed? I've come to the conclusion that the reason that both new players are not staying AND older players are leaving is because of these settings. I've explained why in great detail. People have been wondering about this for years. I am giving you my reason for it. I think you would agree that IF I am right then there is only one solution.

The counter-argument is that people play varying combinations of tricky maps, fog and freestyle to increase their enjoyment. Of course that must be true in some cases. But overall I think they do it to WIN MORE. That is a different thing. People have spent years complaining about farming and ranching ruining the site. But most of you only consider page 1. I think these issues affect the whole site, the great majority of the players. Mainly because most on this site have by now chosen settings to try and get an unfair advantage. As I said, it has corrupted the whole site by encouraging everyone to get their 'extra little advantage'.

Finally, the driving away of members. This is a key point. I feel I lack the information to give a comprehensive answer. It is without question that a lot of members are playing a combination of these settings. Some would surely leave. But if I am right that the majority play in this way because others do and they don't want to be left behind (as in the pernicious effects of corruption) then once the offending settings were removed for everyone then they would play sunny, sequential again..which as I have tried to prove are are the settings most players genuinely want to play.
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