Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

[natty dread]

Here's what I suggest.

• Separate scoreboard for freestyle & sequential games (because they're really a different game)
• Allow freemiums to play 1 speed game at a time on any map at any time
• Revamp the site UI - including the actual game page, and the Join/Start/Find a game pages

With these changes, CC could turn this slump it is in now around to a second wind, and rise to the levels it was back in 2009.

There are some additional changes that would need to be made to improve CC:s success above that, but since they are not the most essential to the immediate success of CC (and I have ranted on enough about them elsewhere) I will not mention them here. Also because I don't think any of this is going to help anything - the admins don't listen, they just plug their ears and implement another idiotic feature after another (cough cough... conquer cup) and ignore the falling number of users. By all means, lackattack, prove me wrong... I dare you.

[Mr Changsha]

Here's what I suggest.

• Separate scoreboard for freestyle & sequential games (because they're really a different game)
• Allow freemiums to play 1 speed game at a time on any map at any time
• Revamp the site UI - including the actual game page, and the Join/Start/Find a game pages

With these changes, CC could turn this slump it is in now around to a second wind, and rise to the levels it was back in 2009.

There are some additional changes that would need to be made to improve CC:s success above that, but since they are not the most essential to the immediate success of CC (and I have ranted on enough about them elsewhere) I will not mention them here. Also because I don't think any of this is going to help anything - the admins don't listen, they just plug their ears and implement another idiotic feature after another (cough cough... conquer cup) and ignore the falling number of users. By all means, lackattack, prove me wrong... I dare you.

How hard is it to have seperate freestyle and sequential scoreboards? People have been saying this is something the site needs since I first came here.

I have frankly given up on this ever being done. It is partly why my mind has moved on to more extreme solutions that could work within the existing set up.

[DoomYoshi]

I can understand the point here. However, I did stay here at CC because of the good variety of maps. I did want to play a quads game on Waterloo. I also wanted to play a quads assassin, but that's another story.

[fusibaseball]

Excellent post Changsha, I really hope lack reads this thread because it's refreshing to see everyone collectively agree on (for the most part) solid intellectual solutions to keeping the new recruits interested the way they used to be. Any comments about graphics, interface, advertising, scoreboard, and tournaments are all irrelevant because this is a thread about new recruits people, not solutions that veterans want to see and actually use. Take it to the suggestions. Advertising is not needed because there is still a healthy inflow of players, just look at the bottom of the forum page and look at "Newest Player Joined" line...there's one every few minutes or so. Here are the cut-and-dry, easy to implement solutions which are the obvious answers to the chronic problem plaguing CC...

1. A quick 2/3/4/5 minute tutorial automatically played when a new recruit signs up, educating the basic functions and know-how of where to go. The extensive list of options on left and top are intimidating. Same video for everyone, automated
2. Categorize maps into at least simple vs. complex. I came here and stayed because of versatility on maps, keeps the gameplay interesting but the long list of maps is a big turn-off.
3. Offer limited speed/real-time games for players under 50 games or so to at least give them a taste of what speed games are like. A large portion leave because waiting 24 hours or longer for each turn is awful.
4. Reverse the order of Join A Page so that the freshest/simple options are right at the start, not stupid quads Das Schloss games from BRADDY which absolutely nobody likes. Or just offer a new page titled Join Classic Games where the options are all Classic, small, escalating/flat rate, sunny games which 100% of new players come here with the intention of playing.

Once again, may I reiterate myself, any comments regarding advertising, scoreboard, and tournaments are irrelevant because this is a serious thread about what needs to be done to keep more new recruits interested. New recruits practically never use these features, only veterans/old players use these. Take it to suggestions.

[agentcom]

The site is made for a hardcore of probably a thousand (at most) players. That's why the membership is dropping year by year and why, if CC is not very careful, they will finally lose their site. CC needs to get back to promoting Risk as what this site is about.

I read through your whole post, but not the comments. So, I'm sorry if this has been said.

An alternative to your doomsday prediction: CC will establish itself as a niche where people who want a little change on the classic game can come to play. While many freemiums may leave the site after a poor first experience, I have met many players who revel in the challenge of games that are not like that old-fashioned game of Risk that brought them to this site. There are other places on the internet where you can go play actual Risk. How many of you have been to Pogo? Many, I presume. What sets the games you're talking about apart from Pogo? Not much. In order to succeed, you need to be different. And I'd rather pay my $25 here then play old-school over there. I like that they're out there. I love fog, different fortification and card settings, the ability to play in teams, etc.

If they're looking for Risk, they can come here and see if they want to indulge in the unique game play options. If they like them, they might pay for more. If they don't like them ... well why would they pay to be here when they can hop on Pogo, etc.? The benefits of Premium are: More games, speed games, and ability to send invites. How many people that are just wanting to play the old school classic game would pay to be here for any of those options? Not many because you can get your fix over at Pogo.

The users that you say are taking over the site are the ones that want more games and the option to play speed games on whatever map they want. In other words, the direction that this site is heading is a direct response to the desires of the paying customers. That's not a problem so much as it is a good business model.

If CC becomes more like old-school Risk, it will lose the only competitive advantage it has over these other sites. Differentiation is the key to success here (especially for CC who doesn't hold the rights to the original game). Players that want to play Risk will naturally tend to flow to sites that offer Risk. And, tbh, Hasbro can probably give them that classic experience that they are looking for better than CC can. But CC's opportunity to succeed is based on being similar to but distinct from that classic game. The users that desire the mix of settings and maps that make CC different will be the ones that stay here and pay to play.

The thing you criticize is the very thing (the only thing?) that will give CC a shot at success.

[jltile1]

The site is made for a hardcore of probably a thousand (at most) players. That's why the membership is dropping year by year and why, if CC is not very careful, they will finally lose their site. CC needs to get back to promoting Risk as what this site is about.

I read through your whole post, but not the comments. So, I'm sorry if this has been said.

An alternative to your doomsday prediction: CC will establish itself as a niche where people who want a little change on the classic game can come to play. While many freemiums may leave the site after a poor first experience, I have met many players who revel in the challenge of games that are not like that old-fashioned game of Risk that brought them to this site. There are other places on the internet where you can go play actual Risk. How many of you have been to Pogo? Many, I presume. What sets the games you're talking about apart from Pogo? Not much. In order to succeed, you need to be different. And I'd rather pay my $25 here then play old-school over there. I like that they're out there. I love fog, different fortification and card settings, the ability to play in teams, etc.

If they're looking for Risk, they can come here and see if they want to indulge in the unique game play options. If they like them, they might pay for more. If they don't like them ... well why would they pay to be here when they can hop on Pogo, etc.? The benefits of Premium are: More games, speed games, and ability to send invites. How many people that are just wanting to play the old school classic game would pay to be here for any of those options? Not many because you can get your fix over at Pogo.

The users that you say are taking over the site are the ones that want more games and the option to play speed games on whatever map they want. In other words, the direction that this site is heading is a direct response to the desires of the paying customers. That's not a problem so much as it is a good business model.

If CC becomes more like old-school Risk, it will lose the only competitive advantage it has over these other sites. Differentiation is the key to success here (especially for CC who doesn't hold the rights to the original game). Players that want to play Risk will naturally tend to flow to sites that offer Risk. And, tbh, Hasbro can probably give them that classic experience that they are looking for better than CC can. But CC's opportunity to succeed is based on being similar to but distinct from that classic game. The users that desire the mix of settings and maps that make CC different will be the ones that stay here and pay to play.

The thing you criticize is the very thing (the only thing?) that will give CC a shot at success.

I some what agree but I think your missing the point. The point is how to keep new players and stop the decline of players. Yes once your here for a while the maps and setting get fun to play with. But as a lot of people have said it has also been a serious way of people and teams of people farming the newer players possibly making them leave. Also the fact still remains that most people are coming here to play risk or risk style games.

Fusi baseball also stated that giving speed games like under 50 games that is one of the best ideas as other sites do the same thing, get them hooked. Give a little to get more in return, but also block the games and settings they can play. Yes there needs to be a video or something to watch, or someone to talk to before they go playing games. It sucks but seems like every player needs a warning about being farmed at some point on the site.

Just think how people are finding this site agent there not googling lunar war, or city mogal, or where can I play freestyle games. They are lookin up risk, CC don't even pop up in stragety games at least for me. I do think CC offers a lot but it also takes a lot that some new players may have trouble with. If you simply make the site easy at least in the beginning and someone to show them around you would have a lot more paying and staying.

[natty dread]

The main point is still that 90% of potential new players quit when they find out the games they can play are not real time. Fixing that alone would probably increase the retention rate by a huge margin.

Especially when there are already sites out there where you can play speed games for free.

[ahunda]

Points 1 and 2...the first is a technical question and I'm not convinced it is hugely key. Assuming you are right, then of course that element of my argument (of course I have so many...) must be disregarded. Concerning point 2, this is a question of our interpertations of motivation. I say they choose these settings to increase their chances of winning, you say they play them for fun. Perhaps unsurprisingly, I will continue to stick with my interpretation.

Well, let´s be real here: Everybody wants to win. Nobody here starts a game and hopes to lose. Even the most casual fun player prefers winning over losing, and I´d guess, that even the most casual fun player will feel a certain pride/satisfaction, when reaching a certain rank (Lieutenant, Captain, Major, whatever) for the first time.

The distinction between "casual" fun & competitive "hardcore" players should be in their main motivation: Do they come here first and foremost to kill some time & play some games, or do they have as their main objective to reach a certain rank & climb the Scoreboard. The borders are somewhat fleeting there, I guess.

Point 3 is more crucial as I suspect you have missed an element of the argument. Btw I don't blame you at all for this. If someone else had written all this no doubt I would be entirely lost. i credit you for keeping up so well!! The issue is related to the Alpha or Beta players. Alpha players are prefectly capable of playing sunny, sequential and getting up to 4,000. Of course I know that. So that you have found many players of this type on the first page is irrelevent. The issue is with the Beta players. These guys have to pervert their settings (effectively farm) to compete with the Alpha players. Sadly, because the options are there, some Beta players turn to the dark side. This is what has created the sense of unfairness that pervades this site.

Ok. I get the point. We have all seen those threads in the forum, where some lower ranked player is asking for advice how to improve his rank, and somehow this community seems to think, that the best way is specialising on a certain map & settings. At least that seems to be the standard recommendation.

It is, of course, complete nonsense. Whatever map & setting you choose, if you don´t have the skill, you won´t go far. And if you have the skill, you should be able to apply it to different maps & settings.

Coming to think of it, it seems a kind of double-standard: To have a community, that likes to cry so much about Farming & undeserving players on the top of the Scoreboard, and yet recommending new players again and again to specialise. I reckon, some of the same people giving that advice might cry out half a year later, when a player actually managed to rise to Conqueror by following their own advice ...

Therefore, the only way I can see to cleanse the site is to remove the offending settings.

And this is, where we simply disagree.

First of all, the "offending settings" seem to be very arbitrary here. There is general agreement, that most abuse & Farming is happening in Freestyle. But Fog ? Where do you get that idea from ? I don´t see anything wrong whatsoever with Fog ...

But more importantly, I think, you are throwing out the child with the bath water here.

• Separate scoreboard for freestyle & sequential games (because they're really a different game)
• Allow freemiums to play 1 speed game at a time on any map at any time
• Revamp the site UI - including the actual game page, and the Join/Start/Find a game pages

These changes should achieve a lot:

The separation of the Scoreboard would satisfy many old-timers, and the Sequential Scoreboard would have real merit of measuring skill at the game.

Revamping the interface in the discussed manner (hiding games with advanced settings by default) would make the site much easier to navigate for first time visitors and put an immediate end to a lot of Farming issues, whilst still giving people the choice to play advanced settings & maps, if they want to.

And as you can see from the feedback here, those advanced maps & settings actually appeal to many. Again not necessarily because of point/rank issues, but simply because they make for interesting & challenging variations of the game. In my opinion, they should be seen as a strength of the site, not a weakness.

In this way you could have both: Old school Risk games and advanced variations on special maps with special settings. And people would have the freedom to choose for themselves. I am someone, who always has some very old school Standard Esc games going, but also very much likes to explore the more special maps & settings (as long as it is Sequential).

The Speed Game option for Freemiums would simply get more people hooked into the site and make them come back for more to eventually discover what CC has to offer beyond that. And it would also revive the Speed Games themselves.

Fusi baseball also stated that giving speed games like under 50 games that is one of the best ideas as other sites do the same thing, get them hooked.

This is a big No however. It would create a flood of Multis. After having played their 50 Speed games, people would simply open a new account. If you give the Speed option to Freemiums, you have to find other incentives to make them buy Premium.

I think, it would pay off anyway. A far greater number of first time visitors would have a positive first experience & come back for more.

As for all those ideas of video instructions & little volunteer helpers taking new players by the hand, I think, it´s nonsense and not needed at all. The basic Risk rules are simple, and the interface changes would solve the main problems for new visitors. Once someone clicks the "Advanced Settings/Maps" button, he knows, that he is entering unknown territory and does so willingly & by his own choice. You can hardly put up a different video for all the different maps (from Feudal to Stalingrad).

But maybe there should be a "Warning" on top of the advanced "Join/Find/Start a Game" pages, that includes a link to the BOB forum thread, because frankly speaking, some of the more complicated maps seem almost unplayable to me without BOB. And hoping, that lack would finally integrate BOB into the site, now that really seems to be asking too much ...

[Vid_FISO]

If the thought is that RT games are an important draw then why not give all fremiums a free weekend "upgrade" at some point to give them a taste and then see how many a driven to pay a sub to continue playing?

Might also be worth considering giving fremiums a "clan slot" to get more to join in there?

[Mr Changsha]

I decided to give the quote button a break..so in reply to Ahunda and Agentcom:

1. Specialisation: There is nothing intrinsically wrong with specialisation, by god I've preached it often enough myself. I refuse to accept it is nothing other than superb to choose a map and settings and master it. The question is the settings. Doing it on freestyle fog and a tricky map (say 1vs1) will always lead to accusations of farming, playing quads sequential sunny is in my view a legitimate striving for excellence.

2. Fog: I admit this is tricky. On the one hand I do feel high ranked teams setting up public foggy games are in the main hoping to score easy wins. I don't feel they are adding much to the site and it certainly has the capability of becoming a 'farming setting'. Yet, many foggy games are played in a great spirit, whether teams or standard. I was impressed by the suggestion above to implement a rank limit for foggy games (I would suggest 1600).

It is the COMBINATION of foggy AND freestyle which is my main concern. A rank limit is the absolute minimum I would apply to that setting. There are reasonable arguments to suggest that in isolation they are acceptable. But combined?

Remember that the key to this thread is the concept of getting more people playing standard Risk. Arguments over the validity of certain settings are important (and I truly believe that the site would benefit from some of the changes proposed), but I would admit I deliberately distracted the flow of thread, mainly because I was horribly disturbed by everyone agreeing with me. My threads are not meant to be so civilised!!! I prefer to deal with pure rage, rather than strange equanimity. It is disturbing to me.

Turning to Agentcom, I think your post was excellently written and well-argued. I thank you for giving us the opposing view point. However, I think your arguments failed to address the enormous issue of WHY the site's membership has dropped so alarmingly. That is the point of this thread, so I feel you will have to explain how the game's development (which you feel has been in the right direction) has managed to evolve while membership is dropping... and that this is still a good thing.

A tricky task...I would think.

Finally, remember that I am not criticising team games, or complicated maps (though i have before), or trench warfare, or 1vs1, or the rise of the clans (though again I have expressed doubts) etc etc. I want new players having their first experiences on the classic risk board, sequentially and in a sunny fashion. I want them (and other newer or casual players) to be able to avoid farming settings AND have far more options for games of standard Risk that they would enjoy. The most difficult leap I am asking you all to make is that the reason classic standard games have dropped off is not because (as has been said before and seemingly accepted) that members are bored of those settings, but rather that the membership as a whole has been corrupted by the idea of securing an easy win due to the fog and freestyle settings. Effectively I am saying that due to the settings, the great majority of the members are employed in trying to steal the candy from other players, rather than trying to play a fair game of Risk...i.e sunny and sequential.

And that is why the site's membership has dropped like a stone. Many people don't want to play on such a site.

[swimmerdude99]

My favorite part of this thread is about 6 pages back near the top...

[jltile1]

As Changsha asked what is so difficult of making two scoreboards?? One freestyle one seq as they are two diffrent games. Fog is what it is in my opinion you still typically can tell who the leader is and can at least see around if you know what your doing. I do like the variations of maps here on CC some a little tricky but you do have to play them a few times and having a team mate that knows the map helps, but it does suck having to give up points to learn them.


I also wonder why mods don't directly get involved into these time of threads so questions can be answered, instead of all our opinions just being kicked around and nothing done.

[thenobodies80]

I also wonder why mods don't directly get involved into these time of threads so questions can be answered, instead of all our opinions just being kicked around and nothing done.

What answers do you want? Honestly I think that no mod can give you a final answer for what you're saying or asking.
What we can do is read, share thoughts...but honestly I don't know if we are able to give you the answers you need/want...mods (or volunteers) can do nothing to have done what you guys are saying/asking. We are just members like you all that are here to help, we're not staff / admins. We don't code the site, we don't manage the site and we don't have the final say on things.

But let's try.... What answers? About ?

[jltile1]

I also wonder why mods don't directly get involved into these time of threads so questions can be answered, instead of all our opinions just being kicked around and nothing done.

What answers do you want? Honestly I think that no mod can give you a final answer for what you're saying or asking.
What we can do is read, share thoughts...but honestly I don't know if we are able to give you the answers you need/want...mods (or volunteers) can do nothing to have done what you guys are saying/asking. We are just members like you all that are here to help, we're not staff / admins. We don't code the site, we don't manage the site and we don't have the final say on things.

But let's try.... What answers? About ?

Well why even think about a post ? Maybe someone that has a answer or a real job here post . Nothing against you but we all want answers just to have a mod come here with I do t know is stupid. Put the boys here to talk to all us. If you cannot talk about it don't speak on it is my thought. Sorry

[jltile1]

I also wonder why mods don't directly get involved into these time of threads so questions can be answered, instead of all our opinions just being kicked around and nothing done.

What answers do you want? Honestly I think that no mod can give you a final answer for what you're saying or asking.
What we can do is read, share thoughts...but honestly I don't know if we are able to give you the answers you need/want...mods (or volunteers) can do nothing to have done what you guys are saying/asking. We are just members like you all that are here to help, we're not staff / admins. We don't code the site, we don't manage the site and we don't have the final say on things.

But let's try.... What answers? About ?

Let's be real honest here. Do the mods get involved in the forums when needed yes. But when they think it's needed not when it's a serious topic. This and many threads have been serious in my eyes and no mods there posting thoughts or opinions is my point. Look we are here posting stuff to help the site and to get no response is complete bullshit in my eyes. I could just look the other way and let this site crumble as it is . I dont know what else to tell you besides Wake up a lil