Membership and lack of advertisement

Talk about all things related to Conquer Club

Moderators: Community Team, Global Moderators

Forum rules
Please read the community guidelines before posting.

Membership and lack of advertisement

Postby tzor on Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:14 am

CONQUER*CLUB is a lot like the weather; actually it's not at all like the weather; nobody talks about it at all, but we can do something about it. Given the current nature of the Internet world, CC could easily see improved membership if it actually did some sort of advertising.

Now the good news is that ignoring the two advertisers, CC gets the #3 spot when one searches “Online risk.” That's good, but not everyone thinks specifically of risk. On the search of “Online Games” it does not appear on the first page. The Competition, on the other hand is on the first page.

Likewise there is the whole area of Facebook, especially given the general downfall of the original Zynga games and the general tendency of burnout by those not choosing the next ripoff game from that company. Advertisement on Facebook, even on a modest level could bring in huge results. The CC Facebook page only has 8,952 likes … it needs ten to a hundred times more to be effective.

I haven't been to the game convention scenes but you can easily get a good bang for your investment by showing up with a gaggle of cheap terminals for demonstrations. MPGN back in the 90's got a good return in membership numbers that way.

The point is that if you don't do anything; nothing gets done. Note that not all forms of advertisement needs management support. Every active member can push CC on facebook, twitter, or whatever social media that they use.
Image
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class tzor
Media Volunteer
Media Volunteer
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:43 pm
Location: Long Island, NY, USA
Medals: 8
Standard Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (2)

Re: Membership and lack of advertisement

Postby Woodruff on Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:31 pm

tzor wrote:CONQUER*CLUB is a lot like the weather; actually it's not at all like the weather; nobody talks about it at all, but we can do something about it. Given the current nature of the Internet world, CC could easily see improved membership if it actually did some sort of advertising.

Now the good news is that ignoring the two advertisers, CC gets the #3 spot when one searches “Online risk.” That's good, but not everyone thinks specifically of risk. On the search of “Online Games” it does not appear on the first page. The Competition, on the other hand is on the first page.

Likewise there is the whole area of Facebook, especially given the general downfall of the original Zynga games and the general tendency of burnout by those not choosing the next ripoff game from that company. Advertisement on Facebook, even on a modest level could bring in huge results. The CC Facebook page only has 8,952 likes … it needs ten to a hundred times more to be effective.

I haven't been to the game convention scenes but you can easily get a good bang for your investment by showing up with a gaggle of cheap terminals for demonstrations. MPGN back in the 90's got a good return in membership numbers that way.

The point is that if you don't do anything; nothing gets done. Note that not all forms of advertisement needs management support. Every active member can push CC on facebook, twitter, or whatever social media that they use.


Honestly, I have difficulty recommending this site to friends any more...I can't imagine I'd want to advertise for it. Why would I want to advertise for a site that isn't interested in real improvement (and almost no changes at all, good or otherwise)?
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 4973
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am
Medals: 27
Standard Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Contribution (4)

Re: Membership and lack of advertisement

Postby rhp 1 on Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:45 pm

Woodruff wrote:
tzor wrote:CONQUER*CLUB is a lot like the weather; actually it's not at all like the weather; nobody talks about it at all, but we can do something about it. Given the current nature of the Internet world, CC could easily see improved membership if it actually did some sort of advertising.

Now the good news is that ignoring the two advertisers, CC gets the #3 spot when one searches “Online risk.” That's good, but not everyone thinks specifically of risk. On the search of “Online Games” it does not appear on the first page. The Competition, on the other hand is on the first page.

Likewise there is the whole area of Facebook, especially given the general downfall of the original Zynga games and the general tendency of burnout by those not choosing the next ripoff game from that company. Advertisement on Facebook, even on a modest level could bring in huge results. The CC Facebook page only has 8,952 likes … it needs ten to a hundred times more to be effective.

I haven't been to the game convention scenes but you can easily get a good bang for your investment by showing up with a gaggle of cheap terminals for demonstrations. MPGN back in the 90's got a good return in membership numbers that way.

The point is that if you don't do anything; nothing gets done. Note that not all forms of advertisement needs management support. Every active member can push CC on facebook, twitter, or whatever social media that they use.


Honestly, I have difficulty recommending this site to friends any more...I can't imagine I'd want to advertise for it. Why would I want to advertise for a site that isn't interested in real improvement (and almost no changes at all, good or otherwise)?



jesus... you play for free and drool on the forum pages talking shit about the site you take advantage of... classy...
User avatar
Major rhp 1
 
Posts: 1203
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:19 pm
Location: IF YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT YOU'RE DOING, IT IS BEST TO DO IT....... QUICKLY
Medals: 44
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (4) Freestyle Achievement (4) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (4) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (2)
Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (2)

Re: Membership and lack of advertisement

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:57 pm

Some valid points here but I have to say that ultimately if the site's owner doesn't want to bother with any of this stuff I'll be damned if I am going to try and promote the site. Until someone starts paying me for boosting its premium numbers I'm not doing any pushing of the site. If someone else wants to start comparable site whose owner gives a crap, sure, I'll support it wholeheartedly.
Last edited by Funkyterrance on Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Colonel Funkyterrance
 
Posts: 1929
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:52 pm
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Medals: 22
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (3) General Contribution (1)

Re: Membership and lack of advertisement

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:05 pm

rhp 1 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
tzor wrote:CONQUER*CLUB is a lot like the weather; actually it's not at all like the weather; nobody talks about it at all, but we can do something about it. Given the current nature of the Internet world, CC could easily see improved membership if it actually did some sort of advertising.

Now the good news is that ignoring the two advertisers, CC gets the #3 spot when one searches “Online risk.” That's good, but not everyone thinks specifically of risk. On the search of “Online Games” it does not appear on the first page. The Competition, on the other hand is on the first page.

Likewise there is the whole area of Facebook, especially given the general downfall of the original Zynga games and the general tendency of burnout by those not choosing the next ripoff game from that company. Advertisement on Facebook, even on a modest level could bring in huge results. The CC Facebook page only has 8,952 likes … it needs ten to a hundred times more to be effective.

I haven't been to the game convention scenes but you can easily get a good bang for your investment by showing up with a gaggle of cheap terminals for demonstrations. MPGN back in the 90's got a good return in membership numbers that way.

The point is that if you don't do anything; nothing gets done. Note that not all forms of advertisement needs management support. Every active member can push CC on facebook, twitter, or whatever social media that they use.


Honestly, I have difficulty recommending this site to friends any more...I can't imagine I'd want to advertise for it. Why would I want to advertise for a site that isn't interested in real improvement (and almost no changes at all, good or otherwise)?



jesus... you play for free and drool on the forum pages talking shit about the site you take advantage of... classy...


I'm pretty sure Woodruff has had premium in the past so inb4 he berates you for it.
Image
saxitoxin wrote:This is the Platinum Lounge, you POS. People should be able to enjoy a surprise dick pic now and then.
User avatar
Cook Army of GOD
 
Posts: 5739
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:30 pm
Location: Over the river and through the woods
Medals: 26
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (2)
Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (2)
Clan Achievement (2) Tournament Contribution (1) General Contribution (1)

Re: Membership and lack of advertisement

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:55 pm

Army of GOD wrote:
rhp 1 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
tzor wrote:CONQUER*CLUB is a lot like the weather; actually it's not at all like the weather; nobody talks about it at all, but we can do something about it. Given the current nature of the Internet world, CC could easily see improved membership if it actually did some sort of advertising.

Now the good news is that ignoring the two advertisers, CC gets the #3 spot when one searches “Online risk.” That's good, but not everyone thinks specifically of risk. On the search of “Online Games” it does not appear on the first page. The Competition, on the other hand is on the first page.

Likewise there is the whole area of Facebook, especially given the general downfall of the original Zynga games and the general tendency of burnout by those not choosing the next ripoff game from that company. Advertisement on Facebook, even on a modest level could bring in huge results. The CC Facebook page only has 8,952 likes … it needs ten to a hundred times more to be effective.

I haven't been to the game convention scenes but you can easily get a good bang for your investment by showing up with a gaggle of cheap terminals for demonstrations. MPGN back in the 90's got a good return in membership numbers that way.

The point is that if you don't do anything; nothing gets done. Note that not all forms of advertisement needs management support. Every active member can push CC on facebook, twitter, or whatever social media that they use.


Honestly, I have difficulty recommending this site to friends any more...I can't imagine I'd want to advertise for it. Why would I want to advertise for a site that isn't interested in real improvement (and almost no changes at all, good or otherwise)?



jesus... you play for free and drool on the forum pages talking shit about the site you take advantage of... classy...


I'm pretty sure Woodruff has had premium in the past so inb4 he berates you for it.


Yeah and I'm pretty sure he doesn't have it right now not because he is cheap/freeloading but as some form of protest if I know him...
AoG is right, you don't want to go there.
User avatar
Colonel Funkyterrance
 
Posts: 1929
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:52 pm
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Medals: 22
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (3) General Contribution (1)

Re: Membership and lack of advertisement

Postby Woodruff on Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:59 pm

rhp 1 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
tzor wrote:CONQUER*CLUB is a lot like the weather; actually it's not at all like the weather; nobody talks about it at all, but we can do something about it. Given the current nature of the Internet world, CC could easily see improved membership if it actually did some sort of advertising.

Now the good news is that ignoring the two advertisers, CC gets the #3 spot when one searches “Online risk.” That's good, but not everyone thinks specifically of risk. On the search of “Online Games” it does not appear on the first page. The Competition, on the other hand is on the first page.

Likewise there is the whole area of Facebook, especially given the general downfall of the original Zynga games and the general tendency of burnout by those not choosing the next ripoff game from that company. Advertisement on Facebook, even on a modest level could bring in huge results. The CC Facebook page only has 8,952 likes … it needs ten to a hundred times more to be effective.

I haven't been to the game convention scenes but you can easily get a good bang for your investment by showing up with a gaggle of cheap terminals for demonstrations. MPGN back in the 90's got a good return in membership numbers that way.

The point is that if you don't do anything; nothing gets done. Note that not all forms of advertisement needs management support. Every active member can push CC on facebook, twitter, or whatever social media that they use.


Honestly, I have difficulty recommending this site to friends any more...I can't imagine I'd want to advertise for it. Why would I want to advertise for a site that isn't interested in real improvement (and almost no changes at all, good or otherwise)?


jesus... you play for free and drool on the forum pages talking shit about the site you take advantage of... classy...


I have devoted a great deal of money to this site, actually, both in my own premiums as well as tournament winnings from a good number of tournaments I ran...back when it was a site that improved from time to time. Currently, the site owner doesn't allow anyone to contact him, he doesn't make many updates at all, and when he does make updates, they are either exceptionally limited or devoted specifically to bringing in more money for him rather than being actual improvements to the site. I do currently play for free, and that is done as a means of protest on my part. I'm sorry you don't like my willingness to speak my mind about a site owner who is, in my opinion, useless to his site these days. I'm far from the only one who thinks so. If he's not willing to put effort into the site, why would I want to promote it?
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 4973
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am
Medals: 27
Standard Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Contribution (4)

Re: Membership and lack of advertisement

Postby Woodruff on Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:01 pm

Army of GOD wrote:I'm pretty sure Woodruff has had premium in the past so inb4 he berates you for it.


"Berate" is such a harsh term. <laughing>

Ironically enough, I am on record as saying that the $25 for a premium membership here is a good deal:
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=178606
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 4973
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am
Medals: 27
Standard Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Contribution (4)

Re: Membership and lack of advertisement

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:35 am

rhp 1 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
tzor wrote:CONQUER*CLUB is a lot like the weather; actually it's not at all like the weather; nobody talks about it at all, but we can do something about it. Given the current nature of the Internet world, CC could easily see improved membership if it actually did some sort of advertising.

Now the good news is that ignoring the two advertisers, CC gets the #3 spot when one searches “Online risk.” That's good, but not everyone thinks specifically of risk. On the search of “Online Games” it does not appear on the first page. The Competition, on the other hand is on the first page.

Likewise there is the whole area of Facebook, especially given the general downfall of the original Zynga games and the general tendency of burnout by those not choosing the next ripoff game from that company. Advertisement on Facebook, even on a modest level could bring in huge results. The CC Facebook page only has 8,952 likes … it needs ten to a hundred times more to be effective.

I haven't been to the game convention scenes but you can easily get a good bang for your investment by showing up with a gaggle of cheap terminals for demonstrations. MPGN back in the 90's got a good return in membership numbers that way.

The point is that if you don't do anything; nothing gets done. Note that not all forms of advertisement needs management support. Every active member can push CC on facebook, twitter, or whatever social media that they use.


Honestly, I have difficulty recommending this site to friends any more...I can't imagine I'd want to advertise for it. Why would I want to advertise for a site that isn't interested in real improvement (and almost no changes at all, good or otherwise)?



jesus... you play for free and drool on the forum pages talking shit about the site you take advantage of... classy...


Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

Woodruff can't share this site with people he knows because they would be exposed to his dribbling--which could prove embarrassing.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 4519
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Membership and lack of advertisement

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:36 am

Funkyterrance wrote:Some valid points here but I have to say that ultimately if the site's owner doesn't want to bother with any of this stuff I'll be damned if I am going to try and promote the site. Until someone starts paying me for boosting its premium numbers I'm not doing any pushing of the site. If someone else wants to start comparable site whose owner gives a crap, sure, I'll support it wholeheartedly.


Exactly. If there was some referral program, I could definitely contribute. Hell, I'm in the right place to easily do so. But since my altruistic feelings for CC don't offset the opportunity costs, then I won't advertise.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 4519
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Membership and lack of advertisement

Postby Woodruff on Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:21 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
rhp 1 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
tzor wrote:CONQUER*CLUB is a lot like the weather; actually it's not at all like the weather; nobody talks about it at all, but we can do something about it. Given the current nature of the Internet world, CC could easily see improved membership if it actually did some sort of advertising.

Now the good news is that ignoring the two advertisers, CC gets the #3 spot when one searches “Online risk.” That's good, but not everyone thinks specifically of risk. On the search of “Online Games” it does not appear on the first page. The Competition, on the other hand is on the first page.

Likewise there is the whole area of Facebook, especially given the general downfall of the original Zynga games and the general tendency of burnout by those not choosing the next ripoff game from that company. Advertisement on Facebook, even on a modest level could bring in huge results. The CC Facebook page only has 8,952 likes … it needs ten to a hundred times more to be effective.

I haven't been to the game convention scenes but you can easily get a good bang for your investment by showing up with a gaggle of cheap terminals for demonstrations. MPGN back in the 90's got a good return in membership numbers that way.

The point is that if you don't do anything; nothing gets done. Note that not all forms of advertisement needs management support. Every active member can push CC on facebook, twitter, or whatever social media that they use.


Honestly, I have difficulty recommending this site to friends any more...I can't imagine I'd want to advertise for it. Why would I want to advertise for a site that isn't interested in real improvement (and almost no changes at all, good or otherwise)?



jesus... you play for free and drool on the forum pages talking shit about the site you take advantage of... classy...


Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

Woodruff can't share this site with people he knows because they would be exposed to his dribbling--which could prove embarrassing.


I'm not sure why anyone expects honest discourse from you any longer. But still, you try so hard to prove those few wrong.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 4973
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am
Medals: 27
Standard Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Contribution (4)

Re: Membership and lack of advertisement

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:26 pm

Woodruff wrote:
rhp 1 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
tzor wrote:CONQUER*CLUB is a lot like the weather; actually it's not at all like the weather; nobody talks about it at all, but we can do something about it. Given the current nature of the Internet world, CC could easily see improved membership if it actually did some sort of advertising.

Now the good news is that ignoring the two advertisers, CC gets the #3 spot when one searches “Online risk.” That's good, but not everyone thinks specifically of risk. On the search of “Online Games” it does not appear on the first page. The Competition, on the other hand is on the first page.

Likewise there is the whole area of Facebook, especially given the general downfall of the original Zynga games and the general tendency of burnout by those not choosing the next ripoff game from that company. Advertisement on Facebook, even on a modest level could bring in huge results. The CC Facebook page only has 8,952 likes … it needs ten to a hundred times more to be effective.

I haven't been to the game convention scenes but you can easily get a good bang for your investment by showing up with a gaggle of cheap terminals for demonstrations. MPGN back in the 90's got a good return in membership numbers that way.

The point is that if you don't do anything; nothing gets done. Note that not all forms of advertisement needs management support. Every active member can push CC on facebook, twitter, or whatever social media that they use.


Honestly, I have difficulty recommending this site to friends any more...I can't imagine I'd want to advertise for it. Why would I want to advertise for a site that isn't interested in real improvement (and almost no changes at all, good or otherwise)?


jesus... you play for free and drool on the forum pages talking shit about the site you take advantage of... classy...


I have devoted a great deal of money to this site, actually, both in my own premiums as well as tournament winnings from a good number of tournaments I ran...back when it was a site that improved from time to time. Currently, the site owner doesn't allow anyone to contact him, he doesn't make many updates at all, and when he does make updates, they are either exceptionally limited or devoted specifically to bringing in more money for him rather than being actual improvements to the site. I do currently play for free, and that is done as a means of protest on my part. I'm sorry you don't like my willingness to speak my mind about a site owner who is, in my opinion, useless to his site these days. I'm far from the only one who thinks so. If he's not willing to put effort into the site, why would I want to promote it?


Wow, did I call that one or not?
User avatar
Colonel Funkyterrance
 
Posts: 1929
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:52 pm
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Medals: 22
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (3) General Contribution (1)

Re: Membership and lack of advertisement

Postby tzor on Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:22 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:Wow, did I call that one or not?


Hold you cards, we have a BINGO! On the other hand it does tell me a bit more of him than I wanted to know. Seriously, is his whole anti-capitalist thing a result of a personal gripe with the site owner doing very little with this site because he might actually have a day job and there's no way this place is ever going to replace it? Really, "when he does make updates, they are either exceptionally limited or devoted specifically to bringing in more money for him rather than being actual improvements to the site." Does he think this guy is running this site to loose money? Of course he wants to make money!
Image
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class tzor
Media Volunteer
Media Volunteer
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:43 pm
Location: Long Island, NY, USA
Medals: 8
Standard Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (2)

Re: Membership and lack of advertisement

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:32 pm

tzor wrote:
Hold you cards, we have a BINGO! On the other hand it does tell me a bit more of him than I wanted to know. Seriously, is his whole anti-capitalist thing a result of a personal gripe with the site owner doing very little with this site because he might actually have a day job and there's no way this place is ever going to replace it? Really, "when he does make updates, they are either exceptionally limited or devoted specifically to bringing in more money for him rather than being actual improvements to the site." Does he think this guy is running this site to loose money? Of course he wants to make money!


The tactic of boycotting the site is actually the most effective way to deal with the situation, if any, since it affects lack's end(as tzor pointed out seems to be lack's best interest). The problem is that lack isn't even here enough to realize it's being boycotted. :x
User avatar
Colonel Funkyterrance
 
Posts: 1929
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:52 pm
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Medals: 22
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (3) General Contribution (1)

Re: Membership and lack of advertisement

Postby Woodruff on Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:59 pm

tzor wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:Hold you cards, we have a BINGO! On the other hand it does tell me a bit more of him than I wanted to know. Seriously, is his whole anti-capitalist thing a result of a personal gripe with the site owner doing very little with this site because he might actually have a day job and there's no way this place is ever going to replace it? Really, "when he does make updates, they are either exceptionally limited or devoted specifically to bringing in more money for him rather than being actual improvements to the site." Does he think this guy is running this site to loose money? Of course he wants to make money!


Anti-Capitalist? Not even remotely. Anti-lackattack? Without question.

Whether the site owner "has a day job" is irrelevant as far as I see things. We're discussing the situation of this site. If the site owner is having problems maintaining the site "because he has a day job", that is wholly his problem and the criticism of his maintenance of the site is still very warranted.

Perhaps you believe that I would have more affect on lackattack's apathy by giving him my money (with or without my voicing of complaints), rather than by staying here and voicing my opinions as a boycotter? Or perhaps you believe I would have more of an affect by leaving the site entirely. Do either of those options actually make sense to you?

Idiotic questions like "Does he think this guy is running thise site to lose money?" simply make me believe that you want to try to defend lackattack at any cost.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 4973
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am
Medals: 27
Standard Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Contribution (4)

Re: Membership and lack of advertisement

Postby Woodruff on Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:00 am

Funkyterrance wrote:The problem is that lack isn't even here enough to realize it's being boycotted. :x


Indeed. This really is at the heart of the problem, as I see it. Ironically, if he were, I likely wouldn't be boycotting.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 4973
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am
Medals: 27
Standard Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Contribution (4)

Re: Membership and lack of advertisement

Postby tzor on Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:10 am

Woodruff wrote:Whether the site owner "has a day job" is irrelevant as far as I see things. We're discussing the situation of this site. If the site owner is having problems maintaining the site "because he has a day job", that is wholly his problem and the criticism of his maintenance of the site is still very warranted.


"Maintenance of the site?" Is the site frequently down and not working? Doesn't he have enough volunteer (FREE) mods to cover the forums?

Note I'm not suggesting you get a premium membership. I don't have one either, although frankly it is because I'm not using the site enough to make me want to.

People talk about the immient death of CC; I keep wondering why it hasn't "died" sooner. The answer is that the site does just enough to get by.

I've been on (and worked for) enough games of this size and category to know that the owners never actually appear in their games. To say they would get mobbed is an understatement, and generally they can get better "filtered" information from the people they appoint as forum moderators.

So the question turns back to the players; if you think that declining membership is resulting in having a harder time to find or create the games you want, you have to do something about it.

If not ... well, I'm here because I like playing the game. Therefore it performs its job well.
Image
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class tzor
Media Volunteer
Media Volunteer
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:43 pm
Location: Long Island, NY, USA
Medals: 8
Standard Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (2)

Re: Membership and lack of advertisement

Postby Woodruff on Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:58 pm

tzor wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Whether the site owner "has a day job" is irrelevant as far as I see things. We're discussing the situation of this site. If the site owner is having problems maintaining the site "because he has a day job", that is wholly his problem and the criticism of his maintenance of the site is still very warranted.


"Maintenance of the site?" Is the site frequently down and not working? Doesn't he have enough volunteer (FREE) mods to cover the forums?


That's your expectation of "maintenance of the site"? I don't even know how to respond to that.

tzor wrote:People talk about the immient death of CC; I keep wondering why it hasn't "died" sooner. The answer is that the site does just enough to get by.


Yes, that is the answer. You'll note that I'M not talking about the imminent death of CC, because I don't see it happening. It's dragging along on its laurels with little improvement, but it's not dying anytime soon because it is still a bargain for what you get in my opinion (again, as I've stated in other threads).

tzor wrote:I've been on (and worked for) enough games of this size and category to know that the owners never actually appear in their games. To say they would get mobbed is an understatement, and generally they can get better "filtered" information from the people they appoint as forum moderators.


I'm not buying this one at all. The good sites DO have active owners, and lackattack used to be one of them.

tzor wrote:So the question turns back to the players; if you think that declining membership is resulting in having a harder time to find or create the games you want, you have to do something about it.


Thus, my boycott.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 4973
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am
Medals: 27
Standard Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Contribution (4)

Re: Membership and lack of advertisement

Postby Johnny Rockets on Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:08 am

This is an intersting post from Dukasaur from the Mods on Strike thread.

The perspective that Lack neither cares, or does anything gets a little assaulted when there is a list of 11 updates over the past 24 months done by our "absentee" site owner.


Take the time to read it. It's long, but it sums a lot of the situation up very neatly, and asks a few questions that you should fucking answer before polishing your sense of righteous indignation.


Dukasaur wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:Anyone want to tell me why this is a bad idea?

You've been so consistently depressing and negative lately that I've started ignoring you as one does with trolls. But then I thought about the fact that you used to be an interesting poster, and I used to enjoy reading what you have to say, so maybe before I write you off completely I should take one shot at achieving an understanding.

Okay, so why is this a bad idea? Let's get started.

1. A successful strike needs a clearly defined set of demands.
We actually did have a successful strike on CC not too long ago, when the mapmakers went on strike, demanding some XML upgrades in the foundry. That was a pretty specific demand, and they got it. But what, specifically, do you think the mods should demand site-wide?

There is absolutely no general consensus on what is wrong with CC and how to fix it.
  • On one hand, you have the mapmakers and the foundry mods, who say that what we need to sustain a vibrant CC is upgraded XML to make more complex and innovative maps. As noted, the foundry had a strike recently because they felt very strongly about that issue. On the other hand, you have Changsha's recent essay about "the real reason CC is declining" which argues that complex maps are the reason for CC's decline and we need to get back to basics. Lot of people posted supportive comments in that thread, which reveals a huge watershed of people sick of being ambushed with Byzantine maps and settings that require full-time specialization to be good at and are guaranteed to defeat any genuinely casual player.
    So, which side would you have the mods demand: more complexity or less complexity?

  • On one hand, you have a steady stream of people whining that the reason for CC's downfall is "excessive moderation" and "the loss of Flame Wars" and other such things. On the other hand, you have fairly regular input from people who are sick of all the filth and profanity and ask for more moderation. One mod actually did go on strike not too long ago to try to force the issue and get stricter rules in place for foul language. He didn't succeed, but do you think he should have?
    Which side would you have the mods strike in support of: more profanity or less profanity?

  • One one hand, you frequently see suggestions that CC should invest more in advertising. On the other hand, anyone who has been in business knows that the effectiveness of advertising is a hit-and-miss affair, and while it can sometimes pay off, on other occasions it can bleed you dry and accomplish nothing.
    So what would you have the mods demand: that CC's financial reserves should be put on the Pass line in the crap shoot of advertising, or should be carefully shepherded?

  • On one hand, a lot of people demand more action regarding the perceived dominance of the scoreboard by freestyle farmers. While there might still be some things we can do to curtail a few specific forms of farming, the bottom line is that there will never be a real resolution without hurting the practise of freestyle itself. Some people would like to see freestyle abolished outright, some would like to see it banished to a separate scoreboard, some would like a cap on the points you can earn through it. On the other hand, many of the freestylers are among CC's oldest and most loyal members. I'm not sure exactly how many there are, but it's a risky business to make changes in favour of a new crowd at the expense of the old crowd that has been paying for years.
    So, where do you think the mods should line up: for freestylers, or against them?

These are a few of the things that divide public opinion on CC. I could find you more examples, but these suffice to illustrate the point. For every person who says "We need more X!" there is another person saying "We need to get rid of X and have more Y!"

"The mods" are not some unique species bred in captivity and selected for unique characteristics. Except perhaps for having slightly more than average willingness to volunteer for stuff, we are otherwise just a reasonably random sample of CC's membership. We come down on both sides of every issue just as the membership in general comes down on both sides of every issue.

This was illustrated quite recently (during your hiatus) when people attempted to revive the issue of reforming the scoreboard. Almost everyone agrees the scoreboard should be reformed (even there, it's "almost everyone" and definitely not an unqualified "everyone") but that's about as far as the consensus goes. There are at least five different major suggestions of how to reform the scoreboard, and minor variations on each, and none of them can command the support of anything resembling a majority.

Anyway, let's carry on.

2. Forcing lack to do more may not accomplish anything.
Okay, so maybe there is one thing you could try to build a consensus around: the basic idea that lack doesn't do enough to improve the site. You will never get a consensus about what changes he should make, but you can get a consensus, however useless it might be, that he should be doing more of an unspecified "something."

Would this make a difference? Let's consider the evidence.

Since I joined CC, the suggestion/demand I've seen most often is "Why can't we play Battle Royales all the time, not just during the Anniversaries?" And recently, lack made that change. All premium members can now join a Battle Royale every month. Did that do anything so silence the endless clamour of "lack never does anything!" or "the site never changes!"? Not really. Maybe for two or three days there was a flurry of people thanking or congratulating lack, but soon enough the old cacaphony returned. "Lack never does anything to improve the site" was being chanted in unison less than a week after he implemented the single most frequently demanded change on the site!

The second most common demand was one-minute Speed turns. Again, that was something lack implemented in his 2011 Speed Game Revamp, along with 2-minute turns, the turn-warning buzzer, and other improvements that speed players had been asking for. Did that silence the clamor? Again, absolutely not. A little extra interest in Speed games for a few days, and in less than a week the old mantras were being chanted again. "Nothing every changes" "Lack does nothing but sit on his thumbs" and of course "We haven't seen an update in years." I shit you not -- within three or four days after the Speed Game Revamp I saw someone claim that he hadn't seen a single improvement on CC in "years."

Cognitive Dissonance is a frightening thing. People who spend all their time chanting "nothing ever changes" cannot be moved from their position by showing them change. All they will do is trivialize and belittle the changes in order to persuade themselves that they were still right all along.

Let me just try to review the changes I've seen in the time (less than two years) that I've been here. In no particular order:
  • Speed Game Revamp
  • Battle Royales
  • Trench Warfare
  • The new Tournament-Finder drop-down
  • Mass Wall Clean and other functional improvements to the wall
  • integral clickies
  • Dice Stats
  • Medal Stats
  • Round Limits (What a huge improvement that was -- a way for people to eliminate the possibility of stalemates if they chose)
  • various server and database upgrades to reduce lag
  • various new medals and minor improvements

So, I've been here 23 months and I can list 11 significant changes. There's probably some that I missed, but any day of the week I can find another post in the forums saying "nothing ever changes" or "lack doesn't give a shit" or some other version of the popular mantra. So, if one change every second month has absolutely no effect on the critics, do you think one change every month would? How about one change every week? What do you think, maybe we should pressure lack to make one change every day, so nobody has any idea what all the different game settings are, or where anything is?

I mean, if you give your wife 11 bouquets and she's still screaming, "you never buy me flowers!" do you really think that bringing her a 12th bunch will fix the situation?

Okay, let's move on.

3. If your primary plan fails, your fallback position is disastrous.
Let's see:
Funkyterrance wrote:Worst case scenario he sells the site and someone who actually cares takes the helm.

Are you really that naive? Please tell me you were just trolling, and really aren't that naive.

First off, when games come on the market, they are not bought by white knights who selflessly seek to improve them. Games are bought by predatory puppy mills like Electronic Arts and Ubisoft who are only interested in draining whatever profit can be derived before the well runs dry. The first thing a major company would do is lower the boom and put a time limit on free players so that they would get an introductory 60 days or something and then pay or f*ck off. Then they would increase the price for the rest of us, while littering the site with massive bandwidth-sucking ads. "Why not?" you ask, "if they're going to make improvements?" Because they won't make any improvements.

Major gaming companies are interested in hits. Games that have a minor cult following like this are just cash cows to be milked in order to produce new hits. No executive at any major gaming company would authorize five minutes of programmer time to be spent on something like this. Well, except maybe to close a loophole through which someone might get something for free.

"Okay," you retort, "let's not sell it on the open market then. Let's sell it secretly to someone who is prepared to love it." Well, there you run up against a couple problems. First, no one will ever love something as much as the original creator. As unmotivated as you might think lackattack is, you can be pretty sure that his replacement will be slightly less motivated.

Let's take a few minutes to look at the economics of the situation. Of course, nobody except lack really knows what the financial picture is, but I've spent quite a lot of time thinking about it and looking at stuff, and I have my own estimate. I figure CC grosses about $130,000 and has about $100,000 in costs, for a net of about $30,000 to lack.

Now, I will not spend even one minute trying to defend those numbers. I admit that they're mainly based on speculation and conjecture and that I could be way, way off. But just as thought experiment, pretend that I'm a clever guy who used to be involved in some business startups and that my estimate might be correct.

$30K is a barely adequate income at a Canadian cost of living. I'm a blue-collar guy who works seasonal and temporary jobs and has periods of unemployment in between, and even I make more than that. For a university educated computer programmer like lack it would be totally unacceptable to settle for that kind of income.

Can you imagine a guy with a wife and two young kids coming home and saying, "Honey, I could have had a job at Oracle making $150K, but I've decided to stay home and play with my pet project. We don't need more than $30K a year, do we?" So, either he has a day job somewhere or he has other websites not related to CC. Possibly both. Certainly he isn't going to make CC his full-time career.

Now, you propose to sell CC to some white knight who will make it his full time carreer. What can be the selling point? If you could wave a magic wand and quadruple the profit, it might be interesting to someone. But you can't. There are no guarantees in business. Someone might make a bunch of changes and quadruple the revenue, or they might make a bunch of changes and nothing happens. Or worse, they invest a whole lot of time and money and the revenues might continue to go down. You just don't know, and all you can offer this hypothetical white knight is what the profits are at present.

If he's even moderately proficient at programming, your hypothetical white knight can get a six-digit salary any day of the week at any established software house. Even if he's a really bad programmer, he can bullshit his way into a job paying $65K or so. And you want to entice him to take on a job that pays possibly half that much?

If you were to succeed in this hypothetical private sale of yours, you would either get just another lackattack who would work on this part-time in between more lucrative projects, or you would get a really atrocious programmer who would fill the place with bugs and make it unplayable in no time. (That's one thing I love about CC: compared to any other Internet game I've tried, there are so few crashes and bugs. This really is the most stable game I've ever played.)

So, to get back to your original question, "Why is this a bad idea?" I think I've answered it. (1)There is no consensus about what changes we should pressure lack to make, (2)making changes would not satisfy the ingrates who have self-brainwashed with the "nothing ever changes" mantra, and (3)if you did manage to depress lack to the point of giving up and selling the thing, it would get substantially worse and not better.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Johnny Rockets
 
Posts: 568
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 9:58 pm
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Medals: 51
Conquer Cup Silver Achievement (1) Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2)
Terminator Achievement (2) Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (3) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1)
Fog of War Achievement (3) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (4) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (6)

Re: Membership and lack of advertisement

Postby ManBungalow on Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:05 am

I'd just like to point out that there IS a referral program on this site. I've hardly ever registered it, but it has its own tab in the left margin. You apparently gain 1 month premium whenever somebody you recommended buys 1 year. And that's a formal recommendation, with the link and all, not just telling your friends about CC at the water cooler.

tzor wrote:I've been on (and worked for) enough games of this size and category to know that the owners never actually appear in their games. To say they would get mobbed is an understatement, and generally they can get better "filtered" information from the people they appoint as forum moderators.

I think the underlined is an interesting point because that detaches the owners from the gamers. When the owner is also the developer, this makes it difficult to determine which of the potential site changes will be best received. I suppose that's a little bit like introducing a new administrator (Hyasri) who isn't a natural CC denizen, who then goes on to make quite radical changes (removal of flame wars) without having a decent understanding of the subtleties of this site.
Image
User avatar
Colonel ManBungalow
 
Posts: 3336
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:02 am
Location: On a giant rock orbiting a star somewhere
Medals: 84
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (4) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (4) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (4) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (2)
General Achievement (10) Clan Achievement (12) Tournament Contribution (3) General Contribution (6)

Re: Membership and lack of advertisement

Postby tzor on Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:58 am

ManBungalow wrote:
tzor wrote:I've been on (and worked for) enough games of this size and category to know that the owners never actually appear in their games. To say they would get mobbed is an understatement, and generally they can get better "filtered" information from the people they appoint as forum moderators.

I think the underlined is an interesting point because that detaches the owners from the gamers. When the owner is also the developer, this makes it difficult to determine which of the potential site changes will be best received. I suppose that's a little bit like introducing a new administrator (Hyasri) who isn't a natural CC denizen, who then goes on to make quite radical changes (removal of flame wars) without having a decent understanding of the subtleties of this site.

I am reminded of the designer of the crayon based board game "Empire Builder." (I know him because I had to design the online version for MPGN.) He rarely played at conventions because everyone would beat him at the game he designed. Of course an owner should "lurk" on the board from time to time, but even then, he shouldn't be wasting too much time there, especially when he can be directed to the important parts from the forum moderators. Looking at CC, for example, how many threads are merely about the "bad dice?"

It's even more obvious here because this is a game that does what it does and that's it. The people in Map Foundary will argue over technical stuff until it reaches the attention of the designers who then suggest that they can do things to the owner. Highly logical and very effective. I don't think people have been complaining about the forum in years.

Now I'm going from fuzzy memory but I threw up a game a while back and while it took several days to get it filled, it wasn't the standard map and I seem to recall when I was playing several years ago that it would also take a few days to get a non standard map filled. I'm not seeing any deficits in the ability to play games. People play this game yet they don't want to promote it? It just strikes me as odd.
Image
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class tzor
Media Volunteer
Media Volunteer
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:43 pm
Location: Long Island, NY, USA
Medals: 8
Standard Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (2)


Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

Login