People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

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People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby 72o on Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:44 pm

Don't you hate them?
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby MeDeFe on Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:06 pm

Is this about ratings or number of troops on territories?
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:11 pm

72o wrote:Don't you hate them?


Control freak?
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby Chewie1 on Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:37 pm

So,etimes its a good tactic =D> =D> :-$ :-$
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby swimmerdude99 on Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:58 pm

72o wrote:Don't you hate them?

If NONE of their territories are 1s and they have 6+ territories then yes.
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby rhp 1 on Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:10 pm

I guess the point can be made for your argument.. However, it does get a bit tiresome when people believe there is only one legit way to play a map on particular settings/map/# of players/etc.. that said, in the games that I assume you're talking about, yea.. I dislike them slightly.. and Swimmy's assessment is pretty much an accurate guideline...
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby Timminz on Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:18 pm

I hit 2's and 3's on principle.
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby ManBungalow on Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:44 pm

I think of leaving 2s/3s all over the board like anti-carpet bombing.

Cover the map with an inch deep layer of your troops and make a lot of noise.

But when a carpet and an anti-carpet collide, they annihilate and form a high-energy annoyed particle/CC user.

Hell, I've been known to do this even when I'm winning the game. And when it's not an escalating game.

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Hey, maybe only AoG will actually understand the reference in the image. And even then, it's not funny.

:(
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:38 pm

MeDeFe wrote:Is this about ratings or number of troops on territories?


Does it matter?
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby rhp 1 on Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:47 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:Is this about ratings or number of troops on territories?


Does it matter?


depends.. most top players in esc game subscribe to the theory of leaving 1's and building stacks... this makes it easy for everyone to card and go for a kill and a run.. basically comes down to timing, luck, cards and being able to see multiple kills to run a board... perfectly legit strat, used by many...
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby maxfaraday on Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:03 am

Yes.
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby tzor on Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:21 am

72o wrote:Don't you hate them?


No, but it depends on what part of the game we are in. In the early part of the game I'm looking for "easy pickings" when you are only getting 3 troops a turn, a X on 1 is so much easier than an X on 2 to get that extra territory and card without loosing troops in the process. So I prefer 1's and look on those who have 2's and 3's as "wise" ... at least at that stage of the game.

I haven't done the math in the case of the large troop invasion. I suspect that it's a wash and not worth the bother.

But it's not worth hate over. I reserve that for the dice.
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:24 am

Sometimes they're just being stupid, but other times there are legitimate strategic reasons for it.
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby 72o on Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:35 pm

Most of the time they're just being stupid. I'm having an argument with one such logic-denier right now. He claims that "this is war" and "why should he help others", which is dumb. He claims my strategy is not smart and is too luck-dependent.

I mapranked he and I on 6,7, and 8 player escalating games. He is -156. I am +2466.
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby Metsfanmax on Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:38 pm

72o wrote:Most of the time they're just being stupid. I'm having an argument with one such logic-denier right now. He claims that "this is war" and "why should he help others", which is dumb. He claims my strategy is not smart and is too luck-dependent.

I mapranked he and I on 6,7, and 8 player escalating games. He is -156. I am +2466.


I too agree that engaging in an argument with someone who you feel is stupid is a productive use of time.
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby 72o on Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:32 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
72o wrote:Most of the time they're just being stupid. I'm having an argument with one such logic-denier right now. He claims that "this is war" and "why should he help others", which is dumb. He claims my strategy is not smart and is too luck-dependent.

I mapranked he and I on 6,7, and 8 player escalating games. He is -156. I am +2466.


I too agree that engaging in an argument with someone who you feel is stupid is a productive use of time.


Well, I happen to have won the lottery with this particular character, and am in 16 different 8 player escalating games with him simultaneously due to some unfortunate tournament scheduling and group assignments.
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:41 pm

72o wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
72o wrote:Most of the time they're just being stupid. I'm having an argument with one such logic-denier right now. He claims that "this is war" and "why should he help others", which is dumb. He claims my strategy is not smart and is too luck-dependent.

I mapranked he and I on 6,7, and 8 player escalating games. He is -156. I am +2466.


I too agree that engaging in an argument with someone who you feel is stupid is a productive use of time.


Well, I happen to have won the lottery with this particular character, and am in 16 different 8 player escalating games with him simultaneously due to some unfortunate tournament scheduling and group assignments.


Well, I kind of have to agree with him. I think people just assume that it's in your best interests to give other players card spots. I don't think it's been demonstrably proven that this actually helps you. This isn't something that can be answered by logic, it's something that can be answered by empirics.
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby 72o on Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:30 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
72o wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
72o wrote:Most of the time they're just being stupid. I'm having an argument with one such logic-denier right now. He claims that "this is war" and "why should he help others", which is dumb. He claims my strategy is not smart and is too luck-dependent.

I mapranked he and I on 6,7, and 8 player escalating games. He is -156. I am +2466.


I too agree that engaging in an argument with someone who you feel is stupid is a productive use of time.


Well, I happen to have won the lottery with this particular character, and am in 16 different 8 player escalating games with him simultaneously due to some unfortunate tournament scheduling and group assignments.


Well, I kind of have to agree with him. I think people just assume that it's in your best interests to give other players card spots. I don't think it's been demonstrably proven that this actually helps you. This isn't something that can be answered by logic, it's something that can be answered by empirics.


Such as the map rank stats I posted above. His strategy loses more points than it wins. Mine would make me a brigadier if that's all I played.
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby docstretch on Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:37 pm

Where your strategy works for you, it doesn't make it the master strategy that all should follow or get off the site. If we all played the same, would it be any fun? Just play the game and have fun.
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby 72o on Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:25 pm

docstretch wrote:Where your strategy works for you, it doesn't make it the master strategy that all should follow or get off the site. If we all played the same, would it be any fun? Just play the game and have fun.


Well, there's a reason it's the strategy taught by the Society of Cooks. Actually the best escalating games are the ones where everyone plays this strategy, as they are adept at identifying opponents' opportunities and blocking them. The worst ones are the ones where a noob cashes for 15 and crashes a 12 stack to take South America for a +2 bonus, because it leaves the person whose stack he crashed with a low troop count, and leaves the next person to play with an easy elimination.
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:10 pm

72o wrote:Such as the map rank stats I posted above. His strategy loses more points than it wins. Mine would make me a brigadier if that's all I played.


That's not real evidence. First, there are more things that affect escalating strategy than just how you deal with leaving open card spots, and if you're better than him at those other things that would affect the outcome. Second, there's a large element of luck in this game, and that would only tend to wash out over many games, so if you or your opponent haven't actually played that many 6+ player escalating games, it's hard to draw a conclusion from it. The bottom line is that you need more than a two person sample to answer this question.
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby 72o on Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:30 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
72o wrote:Such as the map rank stats I posted above. His strategy loses more points than it wins. Mine would make me a brigadier if that's all I played.


That's not real evidence. First, there are more things that affect escalating strategy than just how you deal with leaving open card spots, and if you're better than him at those other things that would affect the outcome. Second, there's a large element of luck in this game, and that would only tend to wash out over many games, so if you or your opponent haven't actually played that many 6+ player escalating games, it's hard to draw a conclusion from it. The bottom line is that you need more than a two person sample to answer this question.


Ok.

Edgron is an SoC teacher, so I know he plays "correctly". He is 909 for 3863 for +4450 points. He's probably just really lucky.

Actually the whole SoC academy squad must just be really lucky.

dhallmeyer is 519 for 2070, for +5553.
bruceswar is 775 for 2786, for +9311.

Please provide examples for people who leave 2s and 3s all over the board and their maprank in 6, 7, and 8 player escalators for comparison.
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:26 pm

@72o, Mets, and whoevs:

I've always wondered about the marginal benefits/costs of leaving 2s on the board compared to the marginal benefits/costs of leaving 1s on the board (with the tradeoff of having a more concentrated, thus effective, force)...

Based on 72o's quantitative evidence (which is very small), it seems that the concentration method is superior to "the 2s/3s" method. With qualitative evidence--i.e. if we asked the big shots about it--I'd expect that they'd support varieties of the concentration method too.

But perhaps there is someone out there who uses the 2s/3s method and garners a lot of points on 6+ escalating games... (If someone provided this existence proof, then we would have more reason to support Mets doubt on 72o's claim.
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:41 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:@72o, Mets, and whoevs:

I've always wondered about the marginal benefits/costs of leaving 2s on the board compared to the marginal benefits/costs of leaving 1s on the board (with the tradeoff of having a more concentrated, thus effective, force)...

Based on 72o's quantitative evidence (which is very small), it seems that the concentration method is superior to "the 2s/3s" method. With qualitative evidence--i.e. if we asked the big shots about it--I'd expect that they'd support varieties of the concentration method too.

But perhaps there is someone out there who uses the 2s/3s method and garners a lot of points on 6+ escalating games... (If someone provided this existence proof, then we would have more reason to support Mets doubt on 72o's claim.


I agree that the sample group is rather small at this point.
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Re: People who leave 2s and 3s in Escalating

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:25 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:@72o, Mets, and whoevs:

I've always wondered about the marginal benefits/costs of leaving 2s on the board compared to the marginal benefits/costs of leaving 1s on the board (with the tradeoff of having a more concentrated, thus effective, force)...

Based on 72o's quantitative evidence (which is very small), it seems that the concentration method is superior to "the 2s/3s" method. With qualitative evidence--i.e. if we asked the big shots about it--I'd expect that they'd support varieties of the concentration method too.

But perhaps there is someone out there who uses the 2s/3s method and garners a lot of points on 6+ escalating games... (If someone provided this existence proof, then we would have more reason to support Mets doubt on 72o's claim.


I agree that the sample group is rather small at this point.


Right. I don't necessarily doubt the method, I'm just being properly skeptical since all we have is fairly anecdotal evidence at this point.

As I pointed out, it is hard to properly extricate the main variable here from other relevant factors, such as inherent skill of the player. Still, I imagine that if you found some equally high rated players who used this method and lost their 6-8 player games most of the time, that would be better proof. But the fact that no one at high levels uses the method would not necessarily be proof, even if it's strong circumstantial evidence.
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