Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

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Should the rules and punishments be more clearly outlined

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No
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Total votes : 28

Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby Jippd on Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:41 pm

I have noticed a lot in C&A cases that their is a lot of leeway and grey area when it comes to determining who has or has not violated the rules.

I personally think that the rules system and punishment system should be more clearly outlined.

I have a personal friend who was warned for ratings abuse: viewtopic.php?f=239&t=180862

Now from my perspective if this player (who doesn't really navigate the forums or know as much about CC as everyone else does) went to the rules tab they have violated no rules.

Nowhere does it say under the rules tab that you can or cannot rate someone 1s.

So my problem is how can someone be warned for a rule that they didn't break?

In my opinion it isn't a rule because it isn't clearly listed under the rules tab on the page.

Think if the law of the real world was like this. Nothing clearly listed, and admins(judges) got to pick and choose what they feel like for rulings not needing to maintain a level of consistency.

Obviously it is not like this in the real world because it never works out. It doesn't work here either. It is unfair that administrators get all of this play in the massive "grey" area that they have created regarding rules, warnings, and bans.

If you don't stop it before the problem gets out of control (it already is IMO) then it will just keep getting worse.

I think the rules need to be clearly listed, and if they are not then the site should not be allowed to enforce them. We can't let admins get to do whatever they want all willy nilly.

What does everyone think?
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby greenoaks on Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:36 pm

your friend deserved the warning. not because he gave 1's but because the 1's were not reasonable.
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby jltile1 on Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:37 pm

The outcome is depicted on what the mod wants to do at the time, in most cases. There are way to many grey areas which then allows the mods to come up with a decision based on there beliefs. Rating abuse is the biggest area that it happens.
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby Jippd on Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:51 pm

I don't want this to be about whether or not he deserved it but whether or not there should be more clarity regarding the rules system overall.

When I sent my friend a text saying he had a C&A report he didn't even know that you could get in trouble for rating. I explained that you get a warning then a one month ban for a second offense per usual proceedings. This was a surprise to him.

In his defense and everyone's defense I don't think rules can or should be enforced that aren't clearly listed. I also think a punishment structure should also be clearly listed and available for the public to readily view.
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby blakebowling on Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:35 pm

I'd like to make it clear that I am posting on behalf of myself, and not in an official capacity. This post is not an official view of CC by any means.

I honestly don't understand how ratings abuse is a punishable offense. Especially not for a global ban on the website. Sure if someone is always rating the same thing (beit 1 or 5), then block that person from using the ratings system. There is no reason to apply a website ban to someone who used a simple feature in a way not intended. If players can't give everyone 1's, then they shouldn't be able to rate everyone 5's either.
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby nietzsche on Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:48 pm

blakebowling wrote:I'd like to make it clear that I am posting on behalf of myself, and not in an official capacity. This post is not an official view of CC by any means.

I honestly don't understand how ratings abuse is a punishable offense. Especially not for a global ban on the website. Sure if someone is always rating the same thing (beit 1 or 5), then block that person from using the ratings system. There is no reason to apply a website ban to someone who used a simple feature in a way not intended. If players can't give everyone 1's, then they shouldn't be able to rate everyone 5's either.


We could get rid of ratings with no problem at all. Ratings, feedback has always been a problem. And they are actually useless.
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:55 pm

blakebowling wrote:I'd like to make it clear that I am posting on behalf of myself, and not in an official capacity. This post is not an official view of CC by any means.

I honestly don't understand how ratings abuse is a punishable offense. Especially not for a global ban on the website. Sure if someone is always rating the same thing (beit 1 or 5), then block that person from using the ratings system. There is no reason to apply a website ban to someone who used a simple feature in a way not intended. If players can't give everyone 1's, then they shouldn't be able to rate everyone 5's either.


Have people actually been banned from the website for this offense? I thought we had a mechanism for blocking people from using the ratings system.
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby tkr4lf on Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:09 pm

nietzsche wrote:
blakebowling wrote:I'd like to make it clear that I am posting on behalf of myself, and not in an official capacity. This post is not an official view of CC by any means.

I honestly don't understand how ratings abuse is a punishable offense. Especially not for a global ban on the website. Sure if someone is always rating the same thing (beit 1 or 5), then block that person from using the ratings system. There is no reason to apply a website ban to someone who used a simple feature in a way not intended. If players can't give everyone 1's, then they shouldn't be able to rate everyone 5's either.


We could get rid of ratings with no problem at all. Ratings, feedback has always been a problem. And they are actually useless.

They're not entirely useless. They do serve as a warning in some cases.

When you come upon a player that has played more than 50 or so games and has a rating less than 4.0 with a lot of negative tags, then you know that this is probably someone you should avoid.

Although honestly, I would be fine with abandoning the star system and only using the tags. It's nice to know when someone is a habitual deadbeater, or suicider, or a bad team mate, etc. etc.
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby Army of GOD on Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:35 pm

the last rating I left was in 2009.
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby Jippd on Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:53 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
blakebowling wrote:I'd like to make it clear that I am posting on behalf of myself, and not in an official capacity. This post is not an official view of CC by any means.

I honestly don't understand how ratings abuse is a punishable offense. Especially not for a global ban on the website. Sure if someone is always rating the same thing (beit 1 or 5), then block that person from using the ratings system. There is no reason to apply a website ban to someone who used a simple feature in a way not intended. If players can't give everyone 1's, then they shouldn't be able to rate everyone 5's either.


Have people actually been banned from the website for this offense? I thought we had a mechanism for blocking people from using the ratings system.


To be honest I don't know. This is part of the problem because it isn't listed anywhere how can we know? My issue is with the rules system in general and thinking that it should be more clear and well defined especially regarding punishment for paying customers. It was just this specific instance that caused me to make a post because I don't want my friend getting in trouble or losing the ability to play after paying $25.00 to join this site because of decisions made in a grey area.
Last edited by Jippd on Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:54 pm

The way I look at it it's like policemen. They have letters of the law they have to enforce but they also have to make a ton of judgement calls to be effective and do their jobs properly. Some situations just don't fit into the rulebook.
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby squishyg on Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:55 pm

The rating system is not helpful at all. The tags are even less useful. Is talkative a compliment or a criticism?

We have a friends list function. When you find a player you like, add them to your list. Play games with those people. You'll meet more nice people and good players.
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:01 am

squishyg wrote:The rating system is not helpful at all. The tags are even less useful. Is talkative a compliment or a criticism?

We have a friends list function. When you find a player you like, add them to your list. Play games with those people. You'll meet more nice people and good players.


I'm not just being contrary but I actually do notice ratings and tags. To me they are a somewhat good reflection of how enjoyable it will be to play with that person without having to find out the hard way. I really don't want to play with a deadbeater or rude person.
As far as talkative being a compliment or a criticism, that all depends on you. ;)
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby Evil Semp on Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:24 am

blakebowling wrote:I'd like to make it clear that I am posting on behalf of myself, and not in an official capacity. This post is not an official view of CC by any means.

I honestly don't understand how ratings abuse is a punishable offense. Especially not for a global ban on the website. Sure if someone is always rating the same thing (beit 1 or 5), then block that person from using the ratings system. There is no reason to apply a website ban to someone who used a simple feature in a way not intended. If players can't give everyone 1's, then they shouldn't be able to rate everyone 5's either.


Just for clarification you won't get a website ban for ratings abuse. You can get ratings ban so you can't give ratings.
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby king achilles on Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:18 am

I feel that the Community Guidelines is always forgotten or neglected:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7785

It's there but no one is looking.
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby IcePack on Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:25 am

king achilles wrote:I feel that the Community Guidelines is always forgotten or neglected:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7785

It's there but no one is looking.


If you can be punished for it, it should be highlighted under rules tab. Or get rid of rules tab and create a community guideline tab, and incorporate the rules into that post / thread. Shouldn't be two places for punishable offenses. And some of them should be clarified IMO

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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:28 am

IcePack wrote:
king achilles wrote:I feel that the Community Guidelines is always forgotten or neglected:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7785

It's there but no one is looking.


If you can be punished for it, it should be highlighted under rules tab. Or get rid of rules tab and create a community guideline tab, and incorporate the rules into that post / thread. Shouldn't be two places for punishable offenses. And some of them should be clarified IMO

IcePak


The community guidelines are actually linked to from the rules page. You could only miss it if you didn't read the five paragraphs on that page.
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:36 am

Those rules and guidelines are broken so frequently that what ends up happening is that when people report those who get reprimanded get sore-butted and rightly so. People get singled out when one person gets a bug in their ass and now has it out for someone. They aren't reporting the offense they are reporting the person. If their friend does the same thing they brush it off. I think that the rule breaking should be looked for and dealt with in a more random fashion than report buttons and complaints from passive aggressive players.
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby greenoaks on Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:49 am

Funkyterrance wrote:Those rules and guidelines are broken so frequently that what ends up happening is that when people report those who get reprimanded get sore-butted and rightly so. People get singled out when one person gets a bug in their ass and now has it out for someone. They aren't reporting the offense they are reporting the person. If their friend does the same thing they brush it off. I think that the rule breaking should be looked for and dealt with in a more random fashion than report buttons and complaints from passive aggressive players.

that doesn't matter here. the op has stated his friend doesn't visit the forums so would be unaware of those situations.
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby Denise on Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:59 am

A warning is a warning, not a punishment. Your friend was warned so now he knows what not to do and now he doesn't have to be punished for breaking a rule he doesn't know about.

Limiting the admins to being able to enforce only rules that are clearly stated in detail makes it too easy for players to use loopholes and disrupt the game. Admins ability to easily stop inappropriate behavior when it happens, even if there isn't a clearly stated rule about that behavior, makes the game and forums more enjoyable for all of us.
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:04 am

greenoaks wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:Those rules and guidelines are broken so frequently that what ends up happening is that when people report those who get reprimanded get sore-butted and rightly so. People get singled out when one person gets a bug in their ass and now has it out for someone. They aren't reporting the offense they are reporting the person. If their friend does the same thing they brush it off. I think that the rule breaking should be looked for and dealt with in a more random fashion than report buttons and complaints from passive aggressive players.

that doesn't matter here. the op has stated his friend doesn't visit the forums so would be unaware of those situations.


I took the example as just that and figured the discussion was open to all aspects of rulings on CC as the poll suggests. If not, so be it.
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby greenoaks on Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:01 am

Funkyterrance wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:Those rules and guidelines are broken so frequently that what ends up happening is that when people report those who get reprimanded get sore-butted and rightly so. People get singled out when one person gets a bug in their ass and now has it out for someone. They aren't reporting the offense they are reporting the person. If their friend does the same thing they brush it off. I think that the rule breaking should be looked for and dealt with in a more random fashion than report buttons and complaints from passive aggressive players.

that doesn't matter here. the op has stated his friend doesn't visit the forums so would be unaware of those situations.


I took the example as just that and figured the discussion was open to all aspects of rulings on CC as the poll suggests. If not, so be it.

its a bit of both

the op as you rightly said wanted a broad discussion but provided a poor example for why we should have that discussion.
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby IcePack on Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:06 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
IcePack wrote:
king achilles wrote:I feel that the Community Guidelines is always forgotten or neglected:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7785

It's there but no one is looking.


If you can be punished for it, it should be highlighted under rules tab. Or get rid of rules tab and create a community guideline tab, and incorporate the rules into that post / thread. Shouldn't be two places for punishable offenses. And some of them should be clarified IMO

IcePak


The community guidelines are actually linked to from the rules page. You could only miss it if you didn't read the five paragraphs on that page.


Community Guidelines:

Our moderation policy for the Forum, Private Messages, Live Chat and Game Chat is outlined in the community guidelines.

-----

Forum, PM, LC and game chat does NOT give the impression it goes into further rules outside f places that you are typing. Does not mention ratings or other rules that are covered. If I were looking into if I could be punished for ratings, i would not continue thru that link based on its explanation paragraph.
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
12:15:00 * IcePack joins Social
12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:20 am

IcePack wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
IcePack wrote:
king achilles wrote:I feel that the Community Guidelines is always forgotten or neglected:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7785

It's there but no one is looking.


If you can be punished for it, it should be highlighted under rules tab. Or get rid of rules tab and create a community guideline tab, and incorporate the rules into that post / thread. Shouldn't be two places for punishable offenses. And some of them should be clarified IMO

IcePak


The community guidelines are actually linked to from the rules page. You could only miss it if you didn't read the five paragraphs on that page.


Community Guidelines:

Our moderation policy for the Forum, Private Messages, Live Chat and Game Chat is outlined in the community guidelines.

-----

Forum, PM, LC and game chat does NOT give the impression it goes into further rules outside f places that you are typing. Does not mention ratings or other rules that are covered. If I were looking into if I could be punished for ratings, i would not continue thru that link based on its explanation paragraph.


You are correct that it would be helpful if the link also said that ratings were covered there. Nevertheless, since even people who do not use the forum, use the PM system and game chat, they should be aware of the Community Guidelines resource and be familiar with it before participating in any way with the community other than just strictly playing a game. Ratings surely fall into that category.

That and the rules page are the only places on the forum where explicit rules are given (the FAQ page also covers some things, incidentally). It's not like anyone can legitimately claim "I didn't know to look there."
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Re: Admins picking and choosing how they feel about rulings

Postby Lindax on Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:11 pm

king achilles wrote:I feel that the Community Guidelines is always forgotten or neglected:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7785

It's there but no one is looking.


Ouch. That's not a fair statement. I try to be up-to-date and informed about rules and regulations on any website I go to.

Hence, I have looked at the Community Guidelines many a time.

In your position KA, you should be the last to generalize.

Lx
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