Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:51 pm

betiko wrote:I seriously think that trench isn't a good way to farm funky. mostly if you play 1vs1 manual trench, the one who starts first is basically assured to win. and in general in most cases of 1vs1 trench games. and 1 dicefail can mean game. The whole point is to get enemies 1 territory away from your bonus so you are sure to keep it.


Ok, I'll take a different approach to try and clarify.
If I personally join a trench game(accidentally), regardless of my drop/dice I am most certainly going to lose. This is due to the fact that I don't have any interest in learning trench as of yet and am not going to be bothered to do so for the sake of an accidentally joined game. I feel that an inexperienced player will act in a similar manner. I'm not really questioning whether or not trench is a great way to farm, rather, is it producing some inadvertent point dropping and if so, to what extent? Granted, I am learning some tips during the progression of this thread but I would never pursue this info on my own. Considering that inexperienced players are obviously not overly concerned with honing their skills, I don't think assuming they would just take their turns aimlessly or deadbeat is an outrageous idea.
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby Chariot of Fire on Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:50 am

Mr Changsha wrote:Risk is a children's game?

I would say the evolution of team games has increased the complexity and level of thought required to play the game to a high standard. The evaluation of odds, position and turn order is no simple matter either. Dubs speed demands a level of concentration, quick thinking and communication that is not to be scoffed at, while all forms of Risk demand bravery as an integral component of success. These are not qualities that children tend to excel in. Furthermore, long standard games ask one to have almost unlimitless amounts patience (children in my experience tend to have the attention span of a well-trained dog), all standard games need a rather large dollop of base cunning - a quality one must admit children are not lacking in - while finally high-level risk play of any kind needs a kind of self-control rarely found in the kind of being that would typically eat so much candy or chocolate that they actually vomit.

Risk is children's game?

I don't doubt any game could be played in a child-like manner, but just because Risk - or whatever it is we play now - doesn't fit your definition of a war game doesn't mean it is a child-like game. Frankly I wasn't aware I was playing a war game. I play a strategy game, which it seems to me is an entirely different thing, and I rather fail to see how just because a game fails to include the elements you mentioned, it therefore follows the game is not involving or strategic, never mind being actually child-like.


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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby betiko on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:31 am

Funkyterrance wrote:
betiko wrote:I seriously think that trench isn't a good way to farm funky. mostly if you play 1vs1 manual trench, the one who starts first is basically assured to win. and in general in most cases of 1vs1 trench games. and 1 dicefail can mean game. The whole point is to get enemies 1 territory away from your bonus so you are sure to keep it.


Ok, I'll take a different approach to try and clarify.
If I personally join a trench game(accidentally), regardless of my drop/dice I am most certainly going to lose. This is due to the fact that I don't have any interest in learning trench as of yet and am not going to be bothered to do so for the sake of an accidentally joined game. I feel that an inexperienced player will act in a similar manner. I'm not really questioning whether or not trench is a great way to farm, rather, is it producing some inadvertent point dropping and if so, to what extent? Granted, I am learning some tips during the progression of this thread but I would never pursue this info on my own. Considering that inexperienced players are obviously not overly concerned with honing their skills, I don't think assuming they would just take their turns aimlessly or deadbeat is an outrageous idea.


well i guess that you pay attention enough not to join freestyle or any other game mode you don't seem to play. If you don't pay enough attention to the games you join or if you're so scared to lose a little game because you don't want to give it a try and lose 20 points and learn, stop calling this game mode evil and for farmers. It brings a whole new strategy that all the trench players enjoy. Is adjacent forts evil because it's more complicated?
Andd yes, as far as I remember in the european risk board game is played "trench".
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby maasman on Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:53 am

Funkyterrance wrote:
Ahem...
Aside from the foolish part I would accept the possibility of what you wrote. I'm basing of course my analysis on my personal experiences with varying opponents in rl. That being said, I have seen some variation but most people obey the rule book for the most part and any differences were minor at best. I'm interested to hear what basic CC settings would confuse a new player to the extent of trench?


Escalating, fog, freestyle, adjacent, no spoils, chained, team games, probably others. Except for a slight variation on adjacent and escalating, all these settings were brand new to me when I joined. At home we had always played trench, escalating, free for all and a variation of unlimited adjacent fortifications, which was you could move any amount of armies 2 regions and you could do this as much as you want as long as those armies didn't move again. So to me personally, CC was totally foreign. I know that the new risk games have flat rate as more standard, so escalating would be a jump, and no spoils, while simple, requires a brand new strategy to learn. I also know that other people have their own house rules, which can make learning CC confusing for anyone who hasn't seen even half the settings offered here. Some settings take longer than others to learn obviously, but overall it would still make brand new players vulnerable to a large amount of abuses for the first 10 games or so for even the easiest of settings.
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:31 pm

betiko wrote:
well i guess that you pay attention enough not to join freestyle or any other game mode you don't seem to play. If you don't pay enough attention to the games you join or if you're so scared to lose a little game because you don't want to give it a try and lose 20 points and learn, stop calling this game mode evil and for farmers. It brings a whole new strategy that all the trench players enjoy. Is adjacent forts evil because it's more complicated?
Andd yes, as far as I remember in the european risk board game is played "trench".


It seems as though you are looking to "ramp up the action" so to speak but I'm not in the mood. Sorry.
If you look back I myself never called the game mode "evil", I'm just posing a question to which a few players are prickling to. I can only guess that these players play trench and are taking the question personally but then again there are others who obviously play trench but aren't reacting so defensively.
Implying that I'm "scared", etc., because I pose the question of whether or not some players are using trench mode to sweep up a few extra points seems a bit of an overreaction. I'm simply exploring a phenomenon. There is no way that a new mode of gameplay like this would not change the rank dynamics of CC to some degree and I'm looking to find out how severe this change actually is. The title is merely a hook, obviously.

maasman wrote:Escalating, fog, freestyle, adjacent, no spoils, chained, team games, probably others. Except for a slight variation on adjacent and escalating, all these settings were brand new to me when I joined. At home we had always played trench, escalating, free for all and a variation of unlimited adjacent fortifications, which was you could move any amount of armies 2 regions and you could do this as much as you want as long as those armies didn't move again. So to me personally, CC was totally foreign. I know that the new risk games have flat rate as more standard, so escalating would be a jump, and no spoils, while simple, requires a brand new strategy to learn. I also know that other people have their own house rules, which can make learning CC confusing for anyone who hasn't seen even half the settings offered here. Some settings take longer than others to learn obviously, but overall it would still make brand new players vulnerable to a large amount of abuses for the first 10 games or so for even the easiest of settings.


Again, I feel that any of these settings, while obviously different when taken to their extremes, still encompass the basic gameplay of the board game. Fog is just a matter of decripting game history/knowing a map, escalating cards involves preparing for sweeps(generalizing), adjacent forts involves more planning of movement of troops, etc., but the core gameplay remains the same. There should be some consideration for the relative strangeness of settings and the magnitude of the handicap that each produces for a player foreign to it.
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby richwwtk on Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:00 am

I don't play tournaments and rarely play team games but that's obviously just my choice. I enjoy playing games here at CC and, since joining, have discovered that I really enjoy the Feudal Epic and War maps. I have settings I find more fun, namely Fog Trench with Flat Rate and unlimited reinforcements but I do join games on other settings.

When I'm setting up my own speed games I enjoy Feudal War, Fog Trench, Unlimited, 20 rounds and one minute as it makes for a fast, fun game. It amazes me when people join a game out of their own free will and then bitch and moan about the settings. Nobody asked them to join! game 12215604 being a real case in point. Surely, if you don't like the way a game is set up just don't join or am I missing something?

P.S. Not played board Risk in years but it in Europe (UK at least) it always used to be Non-Trench and flat rate as standard.
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby betiko on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:36 am

richwwtk wrote:I don't play tournaments and rarely play team games but that's obviously just my choice. I enjoy playing games here at CC and, since joining, have discovered that I really enjoy the Feudal Epic and War maps. I have settings I find more fun, namely Fog Trench with Flat Rate and unlimited reinforcements but I do join games on other settings.

When I'm setting up my own speed games I enjoy Feudal War, Fog Trench, Unlimited, 20 rounds and one minute as it makes for a fast, fun game. It amazes me when people join a game out of their own free will and then bitch and moan about the settings. Nobody asked them to join! game 12215604 being a real case in point. Surely, if you don't like the way a game is set up just don't join or am I missing something?

P.S. Not played board Risk in years but it in Europe (UK at least) it always used to be Non-Trench and flat rate as standard.


I'm not quite sre about trench actually, but flat rate for sure (with soldiers, canons and cavalry), haven't played itin ages either. I just don't remember it was possible to sweep the board so easily.
Also I remember there was a gamemode with objectives, which could be to kill a certain player or to control 2 given continents for 1 round.

And funky, yes you are implying that trench is probably a farmer mode. You are not affirming, but you are suggesting it could be, and the title of the thread just proves where you are trying to go to. Just try it out, it's not that complicated it's just a whole new way of thinking your strategy.
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:32 am

Funkyterrance wrote:
betiko wrote:trench is very interesting but can be way more bitchy than normal settings with shit dice. it's all about the position, and sometimes you just fail with a huge stack vs a small one, you lose a position and a bonus or fail to break the opponent's and it's basically game over for you. On some maps if you start second you are basically fucked unless the opponent gets a major dicefail.


I would say that knowing this alone would be enough for an experienced trench player to completely obliterate a newer/inexperienced player?
I realize that there is always an advantage gained by experienced player over an inexperienced but this setting just seems to tip the scale to the point where even amazing dice would not lead a new player to victory. Perhaps a warning flag is in order?


So, let me get this straight.

Since someone is new to a particular setting and is playing against a more advanced player, then that advanced player must be labeled as a farmer, thus warned?


Why bother? Unless you assume that all new players are (1) so idiotic that they will continue to join games with the alleged farmers, and (2) they do not at all enjoy playing such games--even though they may lose most of them, then your position starts to make sense.
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby Gillipig on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:36 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
betiko wrote:trench is very interesting but can be way more bitchy than normal settings with shit dice. it's all about the position, and sometimes you just fail with a huge stack vs a small one, you lose a position and a bonus or fail to break the opponent's and it's basically game over for you. On some maps if you start second you are basically fucked unless the opponent gets a major dicefail.


I would say that knowing this alone would be enough for an experienced trench player to completely obliterate a newer/inexperienced player?
I realize that there is always an advantage gained by experienced player over an inexperienced but this setting just seems to tip the scale to the point where even amazing dice would not lead a new player to victory. Perhaps a warning flag is in order?


So, let me get this straight.

Since someone is new to a particular setting and is playing against a more advanced player, then that advanced player must be labeled as a farmer, thus warned?


Why bother? Unless you assume that all new players are (1) so idiotic that they will continue to join games with the alleged farmers, and (2) they do not at all enjoy playing such games--even though they may lose most of them, then your position starts to make sense.

You're too curvy to get anything straight BBS, he never said anything about it being farming.
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby Chariot of Fire on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:50 pm

I wear my trenchcoat when I go out flashing. Is that evil?
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:56 am

Gillipig wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
betiko wrote:trench is very interesting but can be way more bitchy than normal settings with shit dice. it's all about the position, and sometimes you just fail with a huge stack vs a small one, you lose a position and a bonus or fail to break the opponent's and it's basically game over for you. On some maps if you start second you are basically fucked unless the opponent gets a major dicefail.


I would say that knowing this alone would be enough for an experienced trench player to completely obliterate a newer/inexperienced player?
I realize that there is always an advantage gained by experienced player over an inexperienced but this setting just seems to tip the scale to the point where even amazing dice would not lead a new player to victory. Perhaps a warning flag is in order?


So, let me get this straight.

Since someone is new to a particular setting and is playing against a more advanced player, then that advanced player must be labeled as a farmer, thus warned?


Why bother? Unless you assume that all new players are (1) so idiotic that they will continue to join games with the alleged farmers, and (2) they do not at all enjoy playing such games--even though they may lose most of them, then your position starts to make sense.

You're too curvy to get anything straight BBS, he never said anything about it being farming.


Sure, he didn't say it directly, but he is insinuating it; otherwise, what would the "warning flag" be about?
And his arguments mirror those against 'farming' as well.

It's hard not to notice the similarity--unless one is from Sweden. My apologies, my good man! :D
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Re: Is Trench Being Used for Evil?

Postby Dukasaur on Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:54 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
betiko wrote:trench is very interesting but can be way more bitchy than normal settings with shit dice. it's all about the position, and sometimes you just fail with a huge stack vs a small one, you lose a position and a bonus or fail to break the opponent's and it's basically game over for you. On some maps if you start second you are basically fucked unless the opponent gets a major dicefail.


I would say that knowing this alone would be enough for an experienced trench player to completely obliterate a newer/inexperienced player?
I realize that there is always an advantage gained by experienced player over an inexperienced but this setting just seems to tip the scale to the point where even amazing dice would not lead a new player to victory. Perhaps a warning flag is in order?


So, let me get this straight.

Since someone is new to a particular setting and is playing against a more advanced player, then that advanced player must be labeled as a farmer, thus warned?


Why bother? Unless you assume that all new players are (1) so idiotic that they will continue to join games with the alleged farmers, and (2) they do not at all enjoy playing such games--even though they may lose most of them, then your position starts to make sense.

You're too curvy to get anything straight BBS, he never said anything about it being farming.


Sure, he didn't say it directly, but he is insinuating it; otherwise, what would the "warning flag" be about?
And his arguments mirror those against 'farming' as well.

It's hard not to notice the similarity--unless one is from Sweden. My apologies, my good man! :D

:lol: :lol:
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