BigBallinStalin wrote:Mr Changsha wrote:My 8 man dubs record stands at a creditable 43 percent, however I realise that my great mistake has been to allow my opposition to be aware that they are actually also in dubs game. Now xiangwang and kiron are so very much smarter than me, for THEIR win rate at 8 man dubs is a whopping 73 percent - but then their oppositon are under the misguided impression that they are in standard game!
As a standard no cards/flat player myself (if of the sequential variety), why didn't I play half of my standard games with my real-life buddies? Well, the simple reason is that even the possibility that there could be private collusion in a public game absolutely disgusts me, it disgusts my friends too...and so we have always played seperately. If we wanted to play together in a standard-like game we played 8 man dubs. One of the elements of this that is so disreputable is that they have had the option of playing 8 man dubs all this time yet chose to play together in standard games. Why? Well I refer you all back to my opening paragraph.
This is to me the fundamental point about kiron and xiangwang. It is perfectly obvious that there have been sixty-odd games where they have operated under a secret alliance. Their defence is that it cannot be PROVEN that they have done so. Yet we know that is exactly what has happened. Our understanding of basic human nature tells us that even the most honourable would be sorely tempted to discuss a position over their morning coffee, yet we are to believe that these two have absolutely and completely refrained from doing so? Does anyone believe that? Yet it cannot be proven because they haven't written anything down in a pm etc? Well then CC must make the required intellectual leap...and BAN both of these players for a gross abuse of this website's rules.
Good analogy, and I fully agree with the 2nd paragraph. But for me, this position of ours only justifies social shaming--but not CC moderation. (Perhaps K & X should have their names posted on a sticky thread titled "Wall of Shame").
RE: your 3rd paragraph:
1. if josko's statistics are correct,
2. then K & X "do not benefit by playing together in comparing with not playing together."
1. K & X's win rate at 8 man "dubs" is a whopping 73 percent,
2. that doesn't mean much without being able to make relevant and broader comparisons.
3. and how do we know what the acceptable win-rate of 8-player singles freestyle is? Should that average apply to all maps?
3. If we say, "73% with person A is too high,"
4. then should CC punish anyone who (a) plays with a friend on 8 player singles, and (b) has a win rate of >= 73% with them?
(This seems to be where your position draws us).
(A) Is this a reasonable policy?
(B) Is it reasonable if josko's evidence to the contrary is admitted?
I believe we already stated by we dislike playing dubs, the win/loss ratio regarding points is not worth it. Each of our win rates is 50-60%. If we played dubs then we would end up with net negatives of points because we lose more points than we win. So playing dubs together would hurt both mine and Kiron's points. We tried a few rounds and well, the loss of points was not worth it. That's like asking why do I play 8 man and not 4 man freestyle? Sorry, 43% is not high for dubs compared to the top players on the scoreboard. I believe Jsnyder said his dubs win rate was 70%+ with his partner. Just because there is a possibility to cheat doesn' mean we DO cheat (it's up to CC to deal with that possibility in a fair way that impacts ALL players equally). Furthermore, if we did cheat then our win rates for playing as a "team" in our 8 player should be WAY higher than playing by ourselves, but statistics shows it's not. Take any other player and if they play as a team, then their win rate would be at least 10-20% higher than playing alone on 8 man freestyle.
Our justice system is based on evidence and allegations. Evidence CANNOT be circumstantial. If the allegations have been proven false then the charges should be acquitted (as in this case since the main argument was that we play with secret diplomacy and as a team to get all our wins), but the statistics show the contrary, there is not significant difference playing together or alone, why? Perhaps we are not working as a team and playing to win for ourselves? Mob rule is not justice, it's just based on unrational emotions on a few pin points issues that are most likely circumstantial or can be refuted with a plausible explanation.