Kiron Conqueror - Abuse or Legal play?

[BigBallinStalin]

I think the questions here should be...

If every game turned out like this would anyone mind?
If a newcomer comes to the game and loses his first game like this is he going to want to stay for more?

I'm not sure if it's right or not. But I don't think it should be allowed to continue just because if everyone started doing it then I don't think I'd want to stick around.

Seek substitutes. If one cannot run with the Big Dogs of Freestyle, then one is still free to play Standard.

Given ease of switching styles, then I don't see why we should fear that the newcomer will not play Standard and will quit entirely.

[BigBallinStalin]

Didnt read all posts, but definitly there is not much to read.
When u arrange a result for the benefit of the scoreboard it must be considered cheating or game adulteration.
Its very simple. A football team cannot give a way 3 points just because they are allready relegated. No matter what circunstance an agreement is made.
It is cheap because there are other people involved, not only in the game itself, but also in the scoreboard.
Play nice , play fair

1. Open diplomacy entails "arranging a result for the benefit of the scoreboard,"
2. Therefore, "[Open diplomacy] must be considered cheating or game adulteration."
3. Given #2, then ban open diplomacy. (reductio ad absurdum, ftw).

[Kiron]

Also newcomers cannot play 8 player maps.

Game 12456643
Game 12458415
Game 12459996
Game 12460108
Game 12460322

Newcomers in all of them, if you need a dozen more examples , feel free to pm me.
So these guys are hackers? I suggest you fill a C&A report against them quickly.

Of course, you can't prove or disprove it, so it's innocence until proven guilty (you're going to have to trust our word, hard i know)

Well, i can´t say it´s getting easier.

I think kiron probably meant to say new players probably can't play 3rd crusade maps until they get ranks

Is a newcomer on this site recognized by a ? Mark; if so, newcomers can play 8 person games.

okay forgive me, i was under the impression new players had some restrictions. They cannot be 3rd crusade or waterloo games correct?

[BigBallinStalin]

My 8 man dubs record stands at a creditable 43 percent, however I realise that my great mistake has been to allow my opposition to be aware that they are actually also in dubs game. Now xiangwang and kiron are so very much smarter than me, for THEIR win rate at 8 man dubs is a whopping 73 percent - but then their oppositon are under the misguided impression that they are in standard game!

As a standard no cards/flat player myself (if of the sequential variety), why didn't I play half of my standard games with my real-life buddies? Well, the simple reason is that even the possibility that there could be private collusion in a public game absolutely disgusts me, it disgusts my friends too...and so we have always played seperately. If we wanted to play together in a standard-like game we played 8 man dubs. One of the elements of this that is so disreputable is that they have had the option of playing 8 man dubs all this time yet chose to play together in standard games. Why? Well I refer you all back to my opening paragraph.

This is to me the fundamental point about kiron and xiangwang. It is perfectly obvious that there have been sixty-odd games where they have operated under a secret alliance. Their defence is that it cannot be PROVEN that they have done so. Yet we know that is exactly what has happened. Our understanding of basic human nature tells us that even the most honourable would be sorely tempted to discuss a position over their morning coffee, yet we are to believe that these two have absolutely and completely refrained from doing so? Does anyone believe that? Yet it cannot be proven because they haven't written anything down in a pm etc? Well then CC must make the required intellectual leap...and BAN both of these players for a gross abuse of this website's rules.

Good analogy, and I fully agree with the 2nd paragraph. But for me, this position of ours only justifies social shaming--but not CC moderation. (Perhaps K & X should have their names posted on a sticky thread titled "Wall of Shame").

RE: your 3rd paragraph:

1. if josko's statistics are correct,
2. then K & X "do not benefit by playing together in comparing with not playing together."

But,
1. K & X's win rate at 8 man "dubs" is a whopping 73 percent,
2. that doesn't mean much without being able to make relevant and broader comparisons.
3. and how do we know what the acceptable win-rate of 8-player singles freestyle is? Should that average apply to all maps?

3. If we say, "73% with person A is too high,"
4. then should CC punish anyone who (a) plays with a friend on 8 player singles, and (b) has a win rate of >= 73% with them?
(This seems to be where your position draws us).

(A) Is this a reasonable policy?
(B) Is it reasonable if josko's evidence to the contrary is admitted?

[Funkyterrance]

Good analogy, and I fully agree with the 2nd paragraph. But for me, this position of ours only justifies social shaming--but not CC moderation. (Perhaps K & X should have their names posted on a sticky thread titled "Wall of Shame").

BBS, even in a world of no government there exists such a notion as Justice. If it were in the hands of the community, at the very least there would be a stripping of the conqueror medal. Banishment would also be highly probable. If you make a "wall of shame" it will eventually be buried and new players and anyone who doesn't visit the forums or main page will put these guys in the same boat as "legit" conquerors, which would be a disgrace.
Even someone with your purist views regarding authoritarian intervention has got to admit that the punishment ought to fit the crime.

[xiangwang]

My 8 man dubs record stands at a creditable 43 percent, however I realise that my great mistake has been to allow my opposition to be aware that they are actually also in dubs game. Now xiangwang and kiron are so very much smarter than me, for THEIR win rate at 8 man dubs is a whopping 73 percent - but then their oppositon are under the misguided impression that they are in standard game!

As a standard no cards/flat player myself (if of the sequential variety), why didn't I play half of my standard games with my real-life buddies? Well, the simple reason is that even the possibility that there could be private collusion in a public game absolutely disgusts me, it disgusts my friends too...and so we have always played seperately. If we wanted to play together in a standard-like game we played 8 man dubs. One of the elements of this that is so disreputable is that they have had the option of playing 8 man dubs all this time yet chose to play together in standard games. Why? Well I refer you all back to my opening paragraph.

This is to me the fundamental point about kiron and xiangwang. It is perfectly obvious that there have been sixty-odd games where they have operated under a secret alliance. Their defence is that it cannot be PROVEN that they have done so. Yet we know that is exactly what has happened. Our understanding of basic human nature tells us that even the most honourable would be sorely tempted to discuss a position over their morning coffee, yet we are to believe that these two have absolutely and completely refrained from doing so? Does anyone believe that? Yet it cannot be proven because they haven't written anything down in a pm etc? Well then CC must make the required intellectual leap...and BAN both of these players for a gross abuse of this website's rules.

Good analogy, and I fully agree with the 2nd paragraph. But for me, this position of ours only justifies social shaming--but not CC moderation. (Perhaps K & X should have their names posted on a sticky thread titled "Wall of Shame").

RE: your 3rd paragraph:

1. if josko's statistics are correct,
2. then K & X "do not benefit by playing together in comparing with not playing together."

But,
1. K & X's win rate at 8 man "dubs" is a whopping 73 percent,
2. that doesn't mean much without being able to make relevant and broader comparisons.
3. and how do we know what the acceptable win-rate of 8-player singles freestyle is? Should that average apply to all maps?

3. If we say, "73% with person A is too high,"
4. then should CC punish anyone who (a) plays with a friend on 8 player singles, and (b) has a win rate of >= 73% with them?
(This seems to be where your position draws us).

(A) Is this a reasonable policy?
(B) Is it reasonable if josko's evidence to the contrary is admitted?

I believe we already stated by we dislike playing dubs, the win/loss ratio regarding points is not worth it. Each of our win rates is 50-60%. If we played dubs then we would end up with net negatives of points because we lose more points than we win. So playing dubs together would hurt both mine and Kiron's points. We tried a few rounds and well, the loss of points was not worth it. That's like asking why do I play 8 man and not 4 man freestyle? Sorry, 43% is not high for dubs compared to the top players on the scoreboard. I believe Jsnyder said his dubs win rate was 70%+ with his partner. Just because there is a possibility to cheat doesn' mean we DO cheat (it's up to CC to deal with that possibility in a fair way that impacts ALL players equally). Furthermore, if we did cheat then our win rates for playing as a "team" in our 8 player should be WAY higher than playing by ourselves, but statistics shows it's not. Take any other player and if they play as a team, then their win rate would be at least 10-20% higher than playing alone on 8 man freestyle.

Our justice system is based on evidence and allegations. Evidence CANNOT be circumstantial. If the allegations have been proven false then the charges should be acquitted (as in this case since the main argument was that we play with secret diplomacy and as a team to get all our wins), but the statistics show the contrary, there is not significant difference playing together or alone, why? Perhaps we are not working as a team and playing to win for ourselves? Mob rule is not justice, it's just based on unrational emotions on a few pin points issues that are most likely circumstantial or can be refuted with a plausible explanation.

[Funkyterrance]

Thankfully this isn't the US justice system.
We all play the same game here so we are all in our element and can "smell" a cheater better than any snooping system CC can devise.
Why don't you guys cut out the cutesy charade and start over legit? It's the only way to come out of this with any degree of cleanliness. I'm sorry if you spent all this energy towards this goal but the penny's been dropped.
The hardcore players whose respect one should wish to gain with the conqueror position(I'm not referring to myself) aren't buying it and don't seem amused. If anything your actions are an insult to these players.

[Gabriel13]

Good analogy, and I fully agree with the 2nd paragraph. But for me, this position of ours only justifies social shaming--but not CC moderation. (Perhaps K & X should have their names posted on a sticky thread titled "Wall of Shame").

BBS, even in a world of no government there exists such a notion as Justice. If it were in the hands of the community, at the very least there would be a stripping of the conqueror medal. Banishment would also be highly probable. If you make a "wall of shame" it will eventually be buried and new players and anyone who doesn't visit the forums or main page will put these guys in the same boat as "legit" conquerors, which would be a disgrace.
Even someone with your purist views regarding authoritarian intervention has got to admit that the punishment ought to fit the crime.

Why strip him of his conqueror's medal? Our current conqueror hasn't played a game in a month! At least Kiron would play games and might I say RISK it.

[Lindax]

Our justice system is based on evidence and allegations. Evidence CANNOT be circumstantial.

Can you please clarify what "our justice system" is?

CC is a global community. In Mexico for example, you're guilty until you prove your innocence....

[Kiron]

Our justice system is based on evidence and allegations. Evidence CANNOT be circumstantial.

Can you please clarify what "our justice system" is?

CC is a global community. In Mexico for example, you're guilty until you prove your innocence....

I believe he was referring to US common law. But for simpleness sake refer to the UN system of justice as represented by the international court of justice since we're global

And yes, circumstantial evidence there is no where strong enough to prosecute anyone.

[Lindax]

Our justice system is based on evidence and allegations. Evidence CANNOT be circumstantial.

Can you please clarify what "our justice system" is?

CC is a global community. In Mexico for example, you're guilty until you prove your innocence....

I believe he was referring to US common law. But for simpleness sake refer to the UN system of justice as represented by the international court of justice since we're global

And yes, circumstantial evidence there is no where strong enough to prosecute anyone.

So how did Scott Peterson end up in prison (in the US, no less)?

[Kiron]

Our justice system is based on evidence and allegations. Evidence CANNOT be circumstantial.

Can you please clarify what "our justice system" is?

CC is a global community. In Mexico for example, you're guilty until you prove your innocence....

I believe he was referring to US common law. But for simpleness sake refer to the UN system of justice as represented by the international court of justice since we're global

And yes, circumstantial evidence there is no where strong enough to prosecute anyone.

So how did Scott Peterson end up in prison (in the US, no less)?

DNA evidence...not exactly circumstantial. Furthermore the case is on appeal to the Supreme Court who might exonerate him, who knows.

[Mr Changsha]

My 8 man dubs record stands at a creditable 43 percent, however I realise that my great mistake has been to allow my opposition to be aware that they are actually also in dubs game. Now xiangwang and kiron are so very much smarter than me, for THEIR win rate at 8 man dubs is a whopping 73 percent - but then their oppositon are under the misguided impression that they are in standard game!

As a standard no cards/flat player myself (if of the sequential variety), why didn't I play half of my standard games with my real-life buddies? Well, the simple reason is that even the possibility that there could be private collusion in a public game absolutely disgusts me, it disgusts my friends too...and so we have always played seperately. If we wanted to play together in a standard-like game we played 8 man dubs. One of the elements of this that is so disreputable is that they have had the option of playing 8 man dubs all this time yet chose to play together in standard games. Why? Well I refer you all back to my opening paragraph.

This is to me the fundamental point about kiron and xiangwang. It is perfectly obvious that there have been sixty-odd games where they have operated under a secret alliance. Their defence is that it cannot be PROVEN that they have done so. Yet we know that is exactly what has happened. Our understanding of basic human nature tells us that even the most honourable would be sorely tempted to discuss a position over their morning coffee, yet we are to believe that these two have absolutely and completely refrained from doing so? Does anyone believe that? Yet it cannot be proven because they haven't written anything down in a pm etc? Well then CC must make the required intellectual leap...and BAN both of these players for a gross abuse of this website's rules.

Good analogy, and I fully agree with the 2nd paragraph. But for me, this position of ours only justifies social shaming--but not CC moderation. (Perhaps K & X should have their names posted on a sticky thread titled "Wall of Shame").

RE: your 3rd paragraph:

1. if josko's statistics are correct,
2. then K & X "do not benefit by playing together in comparing with not playing together."

But,
1. K & X's win rate at 8 man "dubs" is a whopping 73 percent,
2. that doesn't mean much without being able to make relevant and broader comparisons.
3. and how do we know what the acceptable win-rate of 8-player singles freestyle is? Should that average apply to all maps?

3. If we say, "73% with person A is too high,"
4. then should CC punish anyone who (a) plays with a friend on 8 player singles, and (b) has a win rate of >= 73% with them?
(This seems to be where your position draws us).

(A) Is this a reasonable policy?
(B) Is it reasonable if josko's evidence to the contrary is admitted?

I believe we already stated by we dislike playing dubs, the win/loss ratio regarding points is not worth it. Each of our win rates is 50-60%. If we played dubs then we would end up with net negatives of points because we lose more points than we win. So playing dubs together would hurt both mine and Kiron's points. We tried a few rounds and well, the loss of points was not worth it. That's like asking why do I play 8 man and not 4 man freestyle? Sorry, 43% is not high for dubs compared to the top players on the scoreboard. I believe Jsnyder said his dubs win rate was 70%+ with his partner. Just because there is a possibility to cheat doesn' mean we DO cheat (it's up to CC to deal with that possibility in a fair way that impacts ALL players equally). Furthermore, if we did cheat then our win rates for playing as a "team" in our 8 player should be WAY higher than playing by ourselves, but statistics shows it's not. Take any other player and if they play as a team, then their win rate would be at least 10-20% higher than playing alone on 8 man freestyle.

Our justice system is based on evidence and allegations. Evidence CANNOT be circumstantial. If the allegations have been proven false then the charges should be acquitted (as in this case since the main argument was that we play with secret diplomacy and as a team to get all our wins), but the statistics show the contrary, there is not significant difference playing together or alone, why? Perhaps we are not working as a team and playing to win for ourselves? Mob rule is not justice, it's just based on unrational emotions on a few pin points issues that are most likely circumstantial or can be refuted with a plausible explanation.

My own large standard flat/no cards win rate is 42%, though of course I play sequentially. I am well aware that the best freestyle standard players can top 50%. The issue here is not to do with win percentages, or how high one can rise on the scoreboard playing different settings, or even how good someone is at this game. The issue is that your record simply stinks of illegal collusion which I would suggest was employed to ensure that neither you nor kiron ever lost to a low-ranked player..

[Chariot of Fire]

You can repeat all you like about the stats not being favourable for either of you as individuals when you play together as opposed to when you play alone. But the higher win % when you are together (in a very convenient silent agreement to share the spoils of victory) is certainly not favourable for the other 6 poor sods who have joined your games. So whether you stand to benefit individually is irrelevant. As a 'team' you do, and this is unfair and detrimental to the chances of the other players.

[Mr Changsha]

You can repeat all you like about the stats not being favourable for either of you as individuals when you play together as opposed to when you play alone. But the higher win % when you are together (in a very convenient silent agreement to share the spoils of victory) is certainly not favourable for the other 6 poor sods who have joined your games. So whether you stand to benefit individually is irrelevant. As a 'team' you do, and this is unfair and detrimental to the chances of the other players.

Well put.