Standard Games Rule Change

Talk about all things related to Conquer Club

Moderators: Global Moderators, Discussions Team

Forum rules
Please read the community guidelines before posting.

Should playing public standard with real-life friends be considered a rule-violation?

1. Yes, CC should change the rule.
17
33%
2. No, CC shouldn't change the rule.
34
67%
 
Total votes : 51

Standard Games Rule Change

Postby Mr Changsha on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:40 pm

From another thread...

Over the years there have been countless cases of real-life friends engaging in secret diplomacy that always seem to get away with it, as the CC-rule has always seemed to be 'real-life friends can play in large public standard games and we just have to trust that they are playing fairly...'

So we have to presume innocence in these cases. Yet I have always been deeply suspicious of any players that do this, in fact I naturally presume guilt, for it has always seemed to me that it is fundamentally dishonourable to play games on this basis. Private games are a different thing as all the players will probably be aware of the various relationships involved, it is real-life friends playing in public games that in my view should have been made against the rules many, many years ago.

Furthermore, we have to consider if there is a repeated pattern. Playing the odd public game with one's real-life friends might be considered 'a bit dodgy and should probably be avoided (warning)', however numerous games - especially if unusually high win rates are achieved - should lead to an immediate block. I disagree with you in that we should need to comb through the logs, the evidence is all there in the win rates.

I would like to see a line or two added to the rules of the game along the lines of "Please avoid playing public standard games with your real-life friends, as such play is unfair to the other participants in the game". Now this is not a new idea for me, I have made this point on more than one occasion, but I feel now would be a good time to make it again.
Image
User avatar
Colonel Mr Changsha
 
Posts: 1615
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:42 am
Medals: 14
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1)
Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (3)

Re: Standard Games Rule Change

Postby Agent 86 on Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:51 pm

You have my vote, just that it's a bit of a grey area to know who everyone's real-life friends are?

86

P.S. Putting it in general discussion is a good idea..more will see it. Will probably get moved to suggestions.
Image
User avatar
Major Agent 86
 
Posts: 935
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:15 pm
Location: Cone of silence
Medals: 58
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (2) Tournament Achievement (6) General Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (14)

Re: Standard Games Rule Change

Postby Tenebrus on Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:04 pm

I do agree, but it also inevitably raises the question "what is a friend". From a purely CC perspective, I'm sure a lot of people are closer to their clan mates than their actual friends. Do we plan clan mates from playing games together? Sometimes a hard and fast rule is just not the way to go, and you have to leave it to interpretation and the particular case. If you draw a bright line then inevitably some hard cases fall on the wrong side of it.

Ultimately, it all comes down to the "Don't be an a**hole" rule. And I think you have to trust the C&A team on that - generally I think they do a good job with it.
Major Tenebrus
 
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:04 am
Medals: 40
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (3)
Freestyle Achievement (4) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (4)
Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) General Achievement (1)

Re: Standard Games Rule Change

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:24 pm

This is a suggestion that is adding a rule to something that is already against the rules. Secret Diplomacy.

People could be in cahoots in a variety of ways, sure. One is pm's. One is emails. One is skype or other voice chat. One is phone. Another is, as this suggestion intimates, "playing with a rl friend where you can either speak with them about what is happening or watch each other as it's happening."

These are all still banned under the ban on "secret diplomacy."

So, no new rule is needed.

Now, if the concern is, "because player 1 likes player z so does things to help z win if player 1 cannot win," well, as someone suggested, clanmates, chatmates, ranks... all sorts of things affect whether you will "favor" one player over another, too many to ban unless there is some sort of global limit on how many standard games player 1 and player z can participate in together.

So, maybe a global limit for any 2 players on standard public games (or terminator, or assassin) would address all situations, rather than adding a rule where an existing rule already covers the problem.
Image
User avatar
Captain stahrgazer
 
Posts: 1362
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 11:59 am
Location: Figment of the Imagination...
Medals: 52
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (4) Clan Achievement (6) Tournament Contribution (1)
General Contribution (7)

Re: Standard Games Rule Change

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:08 pm

stahrgazer wrote:This is a suggestion that is adding a rule to something that is already against the rules. Secret Diplomacy.

People could be in cahoots in a variety of ways, sure. One is pm's. One is emails. One is skype or other voice chat. One is phone. Another is, as this suggestion intimates, "playing with a rl friend where you can either speak with them about what is happening or watch each other as it's happening."

These are all still banned under the ban on "secret diplomacy."

So, no new rule is needed.

Now, if the concern is, "because player 1 likes player z so does things to help z win if player 1 cannot win," well, as someone suggested, clanmates, chatmates, ranks... all sorts of things affect whether you will "favor" one player over another, too many to ban unless there is some sort of global limit on how many standard games player 1 and player z can participate in together.

So, maybe a global limit for any 2 players on standard public games (or terminator, or assassin) would address all situations, rather than adding a rule where an existing rule already covers the problem.


I think Mr. Changsha is suggesting we go a step further because in reality as we know it, real-life friends and family will favor one another much more than they will a faceless online person. This is not to mention the very real possibility that supposed "flatmates" are actually the same person.
I know in my heart that I am super strict with myself about fair play. However, I play on here with a couple of people that I know in real life and I would never play against them except in a 1v1 game. Not only would it unfairly arouse suspicions with the other players in the game, I might subconsciously favor them in a situation that was close strategically. Why put yourself and your other opponents in this predicament? If you want to be "challenged" by playing against your real life friends, play a 1v1 freestyle speeder or break out the actual board game(gasp!).
Image
User avatar
Colonel Funkyterrance
 
Posts: 1924
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:52 pm
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Medals: 22
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (3) General Contribution (1)

Re: Standard Games Rule Change

Postby ManBungalow on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:08 pm

I mostly figured that's what team games are for.

(in response to this thread in general)
Image
User avatar
Colonel ManBungalow
 
Posts: 3247
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:02 am
Location: On a giant rock orbiting a star somewhere
Medals: 84
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (4) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (4) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (4) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (2)
General Achievement (10) Clan Achievement (12) Tournament Contribution (3) General Contribution (6)

Re: Standard Games Rule Change

Postby Gabriel13 on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:15 pm

stahrgazer wrote:This is a suggestion that is adding a rule to something that is already against the rules. Secret Diplomacy.

People could be in cahoots in a variety of ways, sure. One is pm's. One is emails. One is skype or other voice chat. One is phone. Another is, as this suggestion intimates, "playing with a rl friend where you can either speak with them about what is happening or watch each other as it's happening."

These are all still banned under the ban on "secret diplomacy."

So, no new rule is needed.

Now, if the concern is, "because player 1 likes player z so does things to help z win if player 1 cannot win," well, as someone suggested, clanmates, chatmates, ranks... all sorts of things affect whether you will "favor" one player over another, too many to ban unless there is some sort of global limit on how many standard games player 1 and player z can participate in together.

So, maybe a global limit for any 2 players on standard public games (or terminator, or assassin) would address all situations, rather than adding a rule where an existing rule already covers the problem.


I think the global limit thing is a terrible idea, as I play MANY speed games with the same people over and over (6-player standards), and there aren't that many people that like FS speed games as much as we do, so the limit thing would honestly completely ruin the site for me and others that love their settings on certain games.
User avatar
Colonel Gabriel13
Discussions Moderator
Discussions Moderator
 
Posts: 855
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:12 pm
Medals: 80
Monthly Leader Bronze (1) Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3)
Terminator Achievement (3) Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (4) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (3)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (4) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Battle Royale Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (7)
General Achievement (8) Clan Achievement (7) Challenge Achievement (1) Tournament Contribution (2)

Re: Standard Games Rule Change

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:38 am

My response to Mr Changsha is whether he has considered whether people would stop playing the game if they were discouraged from playing public games with their friends. In other words, is there a group of players that joined this site and continue to play games because they play with friends?
Image
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class thegreekdog
 
Posts: 6217
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia
Medals: 38
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (2) General Contribution (2)

Re: Standard Games Rule Change

Postby Crazyirishman on Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:42 pm

I personally would be more inclined to attack somebody who was my rl friend just to stick it to them, maybe I'm the only one.
User avatar
Captain Crazyirishman
 
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:05 pm
Location: Maine, North Carolina, Colorado or somewhere in between.
Medals: 45
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3) General Achievement (4) Clan Achievement (6)

Re: Standard Games Rule Change

Postby KoolBak on Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:15 pm

Of the 100+ members in our group, all are friends but many are RL friends and they are who I play the most (99%) with. Stupid rule. Our motto (for over 8 years) has been "Friends Killing Friends, With Honor".....I'd much rather hit a bud than a stranger :lol:
"Gypsy told my fortune...she said that nothin showed...."

Neil Young....Like An Inca
User avatar
Sergeant KoolBak
 
Posts: 3639
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:03 pm
Location: The beautiful Pacific Northwest
Medals: 26
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (2)

Re: Standard Games Rule Change

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:44 pm

It does seem like something of a conundrum. Ideally, people who were friends in real life would only play either on the same team or in private games where all players knew each other.
The problem obviously lies in constructing a filter that can tell when each of these is happening and when it's not. Maybe the proposed standard game friend blocking filter should be "turned off" when it is a private game and "turned on" when it is public? Would that be an ok solution?
Image
User avatar
Colonel Funkyterrance
 
Posts: 1924
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:52 pm
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Medals: 22
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (3) Clan Achievement (3) General Contribution (1)

Re: Standard Games Rule Change

Postby Mr Changsha on Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:14 am

thegreekdog wrote:My response to Mr Changsha is whether he has considered whether people would stop playing the game if they were discouraged from playing public games with their friends. In other words, is there a group of players that joined this site and continue to play games because they play with friends?


I think real-life friends should play private games with those friends and other players who are aware of their relationship.

However, I am aware that it is basically impossible to stop people from playing in public games with their real-life friends. What I would like to see, and I mentioned this in the OP, is that CC switches from a presumption of innocence to a presumption of guilt in those CandA cases where secret diplomacy is suspected. As it is right now we have to prove foul play, which is devilishly difficult, while I feel the site should assume that where real-life friends are playing in large standard flat games they are up to no good...and certainly where the win percentages are more than suspect.
Image
User avatar
Colonel Mr Changsha
 
Posts: 1615
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:42 am
Medals: 14
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1)
Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (3)

Re: Standard Games Rule Change

Postby stumeister69 on Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:59 am

and what about innocent until proven guilty
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class stumeister69
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:14 am
Location: Manchester
Medals: 35
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (3) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (1)

Re: Standard Games Rule Change

Postby Mr Changsha on Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:14 am

stumeister69 wrote:and what about innocent until proven guilty


That is of course a good point.

However, consider the analogy of a man caught with his hand in the bag of a woman he does not know. Now I suppose it is possible his hand is in their for a purely innocent purpose, but one must assume its intention is in some way destructive - whether to fondle a lady's feminie hygeine products, or check for a pair of emergency briefs, or simply and far more boringly, lift her mobile phone.

Any woman who happened to find a strange man in such a state would naturally presume guilt and it would be up to the gentleman to explan his way out of the situation. She would certainly not presume innocence.
Image
User avatar
Colonel Mr Changsha
 
Posts: 1615
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:42 am
Medals: 14
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1)
Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (3)

Re: Standard Games Rule Change

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:28 am

Amazing how reactionary some players can be.

Off course friends should be able to play friends, even in large games with other people. Should they be declared as friends in the log, no. No matter what the club does to deter players from cheating, some will always try to circumvent the rules for benefit. You change the rule to include this, how will you determine they are real life friends?
Sergeant 1st Class koontz1973
Cartography Assistant
Cartography Assistant
 
Posts: 7538
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:57 am
Medals: 116
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (2)
Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (10) General Achievement (13) Clan Achievement (5) Map Contribution (12)
Tournament Contribution (31) General Contribution (9)

Next

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Login