escalating is just wrong

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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Mr Changsha on Mon May 27, 2013 10:51 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
Mr Changsha wrote:
macbone wrote:Mr Changsha, I'm impressed if you can manage a 50% win rate on 6+ Terminator/Standard. Very impressive. I'm probably 25% at 6-player Term/Standard Escalating, better than average, but clearly not dominating.

Vice, you're going to have to provide some more concrete examples if you're going to diss Escalating, man. =)

I agree that Flat Rate and No Spoils are more strategic, though. On Classic-style maps, the map itself doesn't matter so much, and it's pretty much a waiting game - build your stacks, collect a card each round, and wait for the right time to eliminate another player.

Actually, I find the missed kills part of the fun of the setting, a feature rather than a flaw. I think we've all been there where we had a 98% chance of winning the dice battle and then coming up just short of the goal, or going for a 3v3 for an elimination and just making it.

With No Spoils and Flat Rate, the bonuses become much more important, although again one principle seems to be most important, find your spot, secure it, and push out from there. You trade the stack strategy of Escalating for the shield/creeper strategy of No Spoils/Flat Rate.

Like Vice says, though, No Spoils/Flat Rate leads to longer games, and players need to be wilier to win. Escalating is all about positioning and a quick finish, which are skills in their own right (and more enjoyable to me) Each setting requires its own set of skills to win.

Flat Rate adds a wrinkle of randomness with the different values of sets, and it's no fun to hold all reds and greens on your team when your opponents are cashing rainbows all over the place, but that's one quirk of the setting.

No Spoils seems to be more about securing your position first, and standard No Spoils relies much more heavily on diplomacy than Escalating does. If you have cool players in the game, the Escalating chat can be a lot of fun, but very little diplomacy goes on in it. There are exceptions, yes, particularly in Trench (right, vice?), but in non-trench play, the majority of diplomacy-based chat in an Escalating game is "Can I have a card spot?" Again, there are exceptions, such as when one player gets greedy and the other players pitch in to break his bonus (and usually a third player sneaks out the win), or when Larry is threatened with elimination by Curly, so Moe hits Curly's stack. There is strategy involved, and you have to read the board to know who's going to make their move, but the middle of the game is generally pretty dry.

I'm playing a game with Viceroy right now, 4-team doubs, Trench, and No Spoils that's turned out to be pretty strategic. I wasn't a fan of the settings before we started playing, but it's developed into an interesting back-and-forth battle, far deeper than most two-team or large player Standard/Escalating games generally run.

Still, I prefer large-player Escalating games. I like the rush at the end of running the table, the agony of just missing an elimination, the joy at logging on and finding I've survived an elimination attempt, or better yet, am poised to take advantage of someone else's missed play. No Spoils/Flat Rate/Nuclear large-player games drag on too long for my taste, but I can understand their appeal.


A well-played 8 man standard no cards on 2.1 is a joy. At its best it is 3 contenders and 5 honest stripers. The skill is in reading the board, reading the play-style of the stripers, manipulating the stripers through either positioning, attacks or diplomacy and timing your surge perfectly to create either a 42%+ troops sweep or a 3 way finish which starts seriously out of balance and can hopefully be manipulated.

Playing against 7 strong players with a 100 round limit is something I am currently experimenting with. Is it possible to win 50%? Very, very hard when your opponents are regular ones and used to one's tricks.

While these kinds of game do sometimes stalemate genuinely, I think at other times weaker players see a stalemate where there really isn't one. Possibly the position of the stacking is more profound than you realise? Might two players combine on one quite ruthelessly to break the stalemate with the spoils divided in advance? High ranking games are much better when all the players are well-aware of each other, as the prospect of truly evil deals (a+b combine to kill c, then d, then fight it out..a form of diplomacy I encourage in my games) increases, stalemates happen much less, and the real CUNNING BASTARD is able to prosper.


Macbone comment)
I do have to agree with Macbone that it is exhilarating logging on to learn that you have the opportunity to win the game but it is also heart breaking when at a crucial moment the dice go against you and you can't win because of one troop still standing (actually you would stop way before then) and some one else goes on to win because of your failed attempt. It's that element of the dice that leads me onto Trench Warfare games.

While the element of the dice is still in TW games, it is not as sudden or as apparent or that much of a deciding factor in your wins or loses as it is in the Standard Escalating Game. There is also a more steady stream of decisions (Strategy) that determines the eventual outcome of the TW game that I truly appreciate. Those who make the more poorer decisions will more likely lose regardless of the dice. And in the end that is what TW games comes down to. The decisions made on the turn and why. Each situation is unique but if the decisions are good ones then you more likely end up winning because of the decisions and not because of the dice.

Mr. Changsha's comment)
I also have to say that I admire Mr. Changsha's thoughts when it comes to 8 player standard. I especially agree with the part about, "...the prospect of truly evil deals (a+b combine to kill c, then d, then fight it out..a form of diplomacy I encourage in my games) increases, stalemates happen much less, and the real CUNNING BASTARD is able to prosper." Spoken like a true 'CUNNING BASTARD' after my own heart. (LOL) =)

But seriously though, I also encourage that tie breaking strategy only I prefer to think of it as an alliance right from the start of or at some point in the mid game rather than at the end unless it is absolutely necessary. Other wise I fight against both other players (stronger one first) until some one gives, lol.

When that strategy is applied at the end (when only 3 players are left), when a tied situation looks like it's about to form, it is more dangerous then because the third party can then decide who wins the game by simply focusing on just one of the players giving the other player the winning advantage. At least that is what I do when I am the third party. I normally would focus on who ever had that thought first.

But in an alliance situation right from the start or mid game, I am just basically committing myself to that player that I will only attack him at the end after every one is gone and eliminated. That makes for a clearer understanding to everyone else in the game, during the whole game. Although I do find that others tend to shy away from that word, "Alliance." :D.

I also find that players who want to win so badly, will often announce the end of the alliance in order to gain the advantage, especially in a losing sided alliance. But that is basically the suggestion right from the start. We make an alliance and the better player wins at the end. It's a 50/50 proposition of winning or losing but no tie situation will arise or any reason to focus on just one of the two players at the end.

Regardless of what it's called, good communication is required though even in an alliance. People confuse alliance with truce, and I see a truce as a temporary situation that can be broken at any point in the game like dumping a date, lol. Where an alliance is more of a commitment, a marriage or a promise till the end. "May the better player win," and then you set about your game and see what happens. And if you lose you lose but you at least have a 50/50 shot at winning. And that to me is the best way to increase your winning odds. If you can find players of like mind that is?


I choose my opposition very carefully for my private standard games to try and ensure an open, interesting game.

These days that means a combination of real-life friends who have over the years bought into my philosophy of standard play and some players from the wider CC world who have impressed me with their willingness to be brutal in their attacks and diplomacy, yet (and this is absolutely key) are unlikely to suicide IF the play is more vindictive than they are used to.

Alliances in these games form extremely easily. Two players surge away early and they will more than likely form a non-aggression pact..and this is absolutely reasonable. The rest of the board will unite - probably 3-4 who are theoretically still in it - and combine 2 on 1 to deal with the non-aggression pact. That doesn't mean everyone throws like mad on round 33, but it does mean that stacks are positioned, positions are chipped away at and the top 2 are aware that not only do they have to face each other in the end, but that each also has to deal with minor power alliances.

What I find most interesting is that after a number of these types of games players become aware of each other's styles. Niggling annoyances and vendettas transfer over to new games, rivalries develop over many games regardless of the position. Some players are more likely to seek alliances with other players and less with others. These days, if I see agent 86 and potager1 form up as neighbours then I KNOW there will be a nasty fight, there always is, and I can strategise accordingly. Players like 86 and scholtz know my play so well, and I theirs, that it is incredibly difficult to trick them...though I try. Finally, I know of no other standard games I have played where it is possible in a reliable way to form up 3 or 4 players into an attack pattern, set their routes, lay the orders (rather like one would in a trips) and prosecute against a game leader or two, I also know of no other in which I am so nervous of pushing for a sweep, as I know that 3 or 4 players will immediately form up under someone's direction and, team game style, do their best to wreck my chances.

I would point out that my roughly 50% goal is applicable to public games and not these private ones. I would be very happy with a 30% win rate over time against this standard of opposition..very happy indeed. But I don't set them up exclusively to win (though of course I like to), but rather to create a really well-played game that everyone enjoys.

The round limit has made all of this possible. I gave up on my favourite form back in 2010 as I find it absolutely gut-wrenching to see games stalemate around round 70. Round limits are not perfect and I know everyone wants to avoid the game coming down to it (it is rather akin to a penalty shoot out in that a win will always be somewhat tainted), but they mean that players have to really try and prosecute their victory if they can, and also try to work out how they will be positioned around round 90 to see if they can come out on top on round 100.
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby jacaf on Tue May 28, 2013 1:59 pm

first off theres a great strat to esc opts. i think its a great setting and option, takes plan in and skill. the best is when ur playing with three other players and get there cards and going into muti esc. just my opinion of course to each his own
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby clowncar on Tue May 28, 2013 4:13 pm

I will preface my comments with the fact that as bad as I am at no spoils, flat rate and nuclear ... I am atrocious at escalating and I am sure my results play a part in my dislike for escalating .. in other words, I am biased.

And I am not saying that the strategy in escalating games is any more or less involved than other settings. That is to say, I think it is mentally challenging to play. My problem with the setting is that the game at that setting is boring. B-O-R-I-N-G, boring.

Each player stacks at access points across the map in most games .. maybe moving a terit or two for position but there is little action in the game itself other than the occasional game where one player doesn't know ( I am still learning myself ) traditional cc escalating strategy. This means turns like this ( although my color order will be wrong ) ....

green deploys 2 troops on X
green deploys 1 troop on X
green assaults a 1 stack and advances 0 and gets spoil
green ends turn
blue deploys 2 troops on x
blue deploys 1 troop on x
blue assaults a 1 stack and advances 0 and gets a spoil
blue ends turn
yellow deploys 1 on x
yellow deploys 1 on x
yellow deploys 1 on x
yellow assaults a 1stack and advances 0 and gets a spoil
yellow ends turn
purple deploys 1 on x
purple deploys 1 on x
purple deploys 1 on x
purple assaults a 1 stack and advances 0 and gets a spoil
purple ends turn
cyan deploys 2 on x
cyan deploys 1 on x
cyan attacks a 1 stack and advances 0 and gets a spoil
cyan ends turn
red deploys 2 on x
red deploys 1 on x
red ends turn ( timing spoils )


Sure there is strategy going on while that is happening ... calculations being made and so on ... but what a dull game and for MOST of the players in the game they will never engage in the fun aspect of actual battles ... it will usually be 1 or 2 players who do ( depending on first attempt to win success/fail ).

I can't be the only one who finds that a dull version of the game. Then again, maybe it is just because I get my ass kicked at the setting ...
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed May 29, 2013 11:55 pm

Mr Changsha wrote:
I choose my opposition very carefully for my private standard games to try and ensure an open, interesting game.

These days that means a combination of real-life friends who have over the years bought into my philosophy of standard play and some players from the wider CC world who have impressed me with their willingness to be brutal in their attacks and diplomacy, yet (and this is absolutely key) are unlikely to suicide IF the play is more vindictive than they are used to.

Alliances in these games form extremely easily. Two players surge away early and they will more than likely form a non-aggression pact..and this is absolutely reasonable. The rest of the board will unite - probably 3-4 who are theoretically still in it - and combine 2 on 1 to deal with the non-aggression pact. That doesn't mean everyone throws like mad on round 33, but it does mean that stacks are positioned, positions are chipped away at and the top 2 are aware that not only do they have to face each other in the end, but that each also has to deal with minor power alliances.

What I find most interesting is that after a number of these types of games players become aware of each other's styles. Niggling annoyances and vendettas transfer over to new games, rivalries develop over many games regardless of the position. Some players are more likely to seek alliances with other players and less with others. These days, if I see agent 86 and potager1 form up as neighbours then I KNOW there will be a nasty fight, there always is, and I can strategise accordingly. Players like 86 and scholtz know my play so well, and I theirs, that it is incredibly difficult to trick them...though I try. Finally, I know of no other standard games I have played where it is possible in a reliable way to form up 3 or 4 players into an attack pattern, set their routes, lay the orders (rather like one would in a trips) and prosecute against a game leader or two, I also know of no other in which I am so nervous of pushing for a sweep, as I know that 3 or 4 players will immediately form up under someone's direction and, team game style, do their best to wreck my chances.

I would point out that my roughly 50% goal is applicable to public games and not these private ones. I would be very happy with a 30% win rate over time against this standard of opposition..very happy indeed. But I don't set them up exclusively to win (though of course I like to), but rather to create a really well-played game that everyone enjoys.

The round limit has made all of this possible. I gave up on my favourite form back in 2010 as I find it absolutely gut-wrenching to see games stalemate around round 70. Round limits are not perfect and I know everyone wants to avoid the game coming down to it (it is rather akin to a penalty shoot out in that a win will always be somewhat tainted), but they mean that players have to really try and prosecute their victory if they can, and also try to work out how they will be positioned around round 90 to see if they can come out on top on round 100.

Wow, I'm having deja vu all over again...
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Viceroy63 on Thu May 30, 2013 1:12 am

Actually; Only now and I playing with round limits. I never really explored that option before but I intend to do so in the future with all of my games regardless. In the future I will provide more opinion about that. =)
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby gordon1975 on Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:03 pm

evryones got very valid points,ive started playing the Eurasia map,its made for flat rate in my opinion,best ive played so far,my board is from 1985,and im in the uk,it was flat rate,the big diffrence back then was the mission cards,why dont we have that here? great drop,but shit mission(Conqeur AISIA and AFRICA!) nooo!
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:24 pm

clowncar wrote:Each player stacks at access points across the map in most games .. maybe moving a terit or two for position but there is little action in the game itself other than the occasional game where one player doesn't know ( I am still learning myself ) traditional cc escalating strategy. This means turns like this ( although my color order will be wrong ) ....

green deploys 2 troops on X
green deploys 1 troop on X
green assaults a 1 stack and advances 0 and gets spoil
green ends turn
blue deploys 2 troops on x
blue deploys 1 troop on x
blue assaults a 1 stack and advances 0 and gets a spoil
blue ends turn
yellow deploys 1 on x
yellow deploys 1 on x
yellow deploys 1 on x
yellow assaults a 1stack and advances 0 and gets a spoil
yellow ends turn
purple deploys 1 on x
purple deploys 1 on x
purple deploys 1 on x
purple assaults a 1 stack and advances 0 and gets a spoil
purple ends turn
cyan deploys 2 on x
cyan deploys 1 on x
cyan attacks a 1 stack and advances 0 and gets a spoil
cyan ends turn
red deploys 2 on x
red deploys 1 on x
red ends turn ( timing spoils )


Sure there is strategy going on while that is happening ... calculations being made and so on ... but what a dull game and for MOST of the players in the game they will never engage in the fun aspect of actual battles ... it will usually be 1 or 2 players who do ( depending on first attempt to win success/fail ).

I can't be the only one who finds that a dull version of the game. Then again, maybe it is just because I get my ass kicked at the setting ...

See, I find those games interesting. I usually have eight to twelve of them going at the same time. And you're right, in any given one of those games, often only one player will actually get to fight. Sometimes two or three, if things get messy. But for the majority of the players, the game will end without their even getting a chance to fire a shot.

That's for one single game, though. Just as in anything else, you take the bad with the good. Even though 5/6 of the games will be uneventful, the sixth one, where you are the one doing the steamrolling, that is the payoff. And there's no legal high better than that great feeling of sweeping the board in one turn. A whole bunch of games that go nowhere are totally worth it from my point of view.
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:45 pm

Escalating is so immoral. It uses electricity and burning trees is just wrong.
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Gabriel13 on Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:37 am

It all depends on what you are playing to be honest. When I want a game that I know will be completely based off of the spoils and nothing else rather than fast-thinking, fast attacking, and fast connection, I make an FS speeder with esc spoils on Doodle Earth. Obviously, the bonuses won't come into play on this map with the spoils raising at a fast pace. I enjoy these games more than anything. They are just like the Annual BR's we have, which is why I'm one of the best at those. I think flat rate completely ruins any 1v1 on small maps because it will give the game away if somebody gets a rainbow at 3 cards, while the other doesn't have a set at all. On bigger maps, this generally will not happen, so it is fine. I believe FS escalating games are the best if you want strategy to be involved, or staying up all night waiting for your next turn to make the kill, which is why I enjoy the speeders much more!
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby stotzi on Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:46 am

Escalating brings a new dimension of strategy into a game. I like it very much especially on "standard" maps. What I do not like is, when the escalating mode kills the mechanics of a otherwise highly strategic map (e.g. Stalingrad, Conquer Rome).
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Viceroy63 on Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:15 am

gordon1975 wrote:evryones got very valid points,ive started playing the Eurasia map,its made for flat rate in my opinion,best ive played so far,my board is from 1985,and im in the uk,it was flat rate,the big diffrence back then was the mission cards,why dont we have that here? great drop,but shit mission(Conqeur AISIA and AFRICA!) nooo!


Wow! That sounds really interesting. If everyone started the game with a certain mission or region to hold for say three rounds and everyone knew each others mission to win the game. Might make for more interesting game play. You have to reach your mission while trying to stop everyone else from reaching theirs. =)
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby rhp 1 on Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:56 am

jsnyder748 wrote:
Mr Changsha wrote:
jsnyder748 wrote:
gordon1975 wrote:
jsnyder748 wrote:standard escalating games actually take much more skill than standard flat rate or no spoils. Flat rate and no spoils are mindless games that can take forever or be decided by an idiot move. Not that they aren't fun and can't be challenging.

To prove a point people who reach high ranks often play escalating games because if you know how to play them (pretty simple actually) it is way easier to win. Everyone is on even grounds playing flat rate or no spoils, but those who are more skilled in escalating will win more often.

I love the feeling of sweeping the entire board in one round and ending up with 300 troops :D

if somthings way easier to win,why would it take more skill? :)


It is easier to win vs people with less skill. In my opinion cooks are as good as anyone if you play flat rate. Obviously they miss turns and play irrationally but the skill required is attack, get bonus, attack others, get bonus. In escalating a cook will go for bonuses for 7 rounds and on round 8 you will sweep the board with cards.


I don't think you understand standard flat/no cards at all. The skill is actually about looking 10+ rounds ahead, positioning troops to influence the board, using diplomacy to influence the board. Never mind that one must survive the opening, stay active but not too active in the middle and then try to drag your troops percentage over 40 percent so that a sweep become possible.

The actual problem with no cards/flat before was stalemates between good players...and it stopped me playing in 2010. However, round limits have in my view made the game good again and it is great to be able to match wits with some excellent standard no cards players on standard games...rather than 8 man dubs (my previous solution) or even trips.


Ya I don't get flat rate and no spoils :roll: (sarcasm)


LOL
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby betiko on Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:46 am

escalating requires well thought timing strategies. flat rate/no spoils only requires staying out of unnecesairy trouble and trying to get your oppoents to fight one another. it's pointless and boring.

talking about multiplayers on classic as it seems like it ws he topic.
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Stephen Wayne on Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:33 pm

gordon1975 wrote:escalating is a crap game setting,just dont get it!no point in territories..what am i missing here,flat rate or no spoils is just such a better game,is it just to get the game over more quickly?


Damnstraight There's no point in bonuses, troop count, or anything else its all just luck of who turns in next. A complete waste of time.
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Gabriel13 on Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:43 pm

Stephen Wayne wrote:
gordon1975 wrote:escalating is a crap game setting,just dont get it!no point in territories..what am i missing here,flat rate or no spoils is just such a better game,is it just to get the game over more quickly?


Damnstraight There's no point in bonuses, troop count, or anything else its all just luck of who turns in next. A complete waste of time.

Which is why there's FS escalating, where anybody could turn in. Don't say something's a waste of time when it's the most popular setting on CC.. -.-
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby HardAttack on Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:46 am

everyone has a say, mostly to degrade escalating game play...
one true and v.interesting observation of myself, in the whole cc world, there is not any more than 30/40 players to play escalating cards games at all...hahaha..

mostly ppl do believe they do play it allright,
actualy no, they dont.

:lol: :lol:
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:38 pm

An entire thread, and not a single person knows the current US rules? The current RISK rules are every card has a number of stars. You can cash whenever you want, but the more stars you turn in at a time, the more troops you get.

Escalating is so 1959.
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby vonraider on Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:39 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:An entire thread, and not a single person knows the current US rules? The current RISK rules are every card has a number of stars. You can cash whenever you want, but the more stars you turn in at a time, the more troops you get.

Escalating is so 1959.


Really? I did not know that. Sounds good.
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby 2dimes on Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:02 pm

vonraider wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:An entire thread, and not a single person knows the current US rules? The current RISK rules are every card has a number of stars. You can cash whenever you want, but the more stars you turn in at a time, the more troops you get.

Escalating is so 1959.


Really? I did not know that. Sounds good.

Is there a suggestion in for that variation?
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby DoomYoshi on Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:57 pm

2dimes wrote:
vonraider wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:An entire thread, and not a single person knows the current US rules? The current RISK rules are every card has a number of stars. You can cash whenever you want, but the more stars you turn in at a time, the more troops you get.

Escalating is so 1959.


Really? I did not know that. Sounds good.

Is there a suggestion in for that variation?


Rodion suggested something similar but not the same. considering Rodion is in brazil, and probably never played the official us version, it seems he came up with it independently.

This rule system came very shortly after some lawsuits against sites like this. i think they did to still offer a distinct setting and a reason to still buy the board game.
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby DoomYoshi on Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:40 pm

I also found this:
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=471&t=134582

Incidentally, it was rejected for basically the same reason I was against it in this thread.

Also, there was:
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=471&t=109230
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