escalating is just wrong

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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby gordon1975 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:00 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:The thing that doesn't really sit well with me with escalating is how little the map seems to come into play. Not that it doesn't enter into it but the little nuances tend to matter less. I like the intimacy and the advantage of knowing every little nook and cranny of a map with no-spoils. I don't play flat rate btw unless it's a clan game or an accident.



exactly! kills the idea of the map
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Armandolas on Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:58 pm

It does kill the idea of the map if u play the classic map. But then if u play classic i dont see also the big map strategy about it.

There are plelty maps where an escalating game can be a lot of fun and you really must know what you are doig in the map.
If you add fog to it, than you have a real challenge.

But again, its justa different game from no spoils, Diff strategy. I enjoy both and find flatties extremely boring. its just my opinion and my taste.
Also there is a big problem about escalating games. People that dont really know how to play it , usually are the reason why esc games are shorter.

Also jsnyder pointed soemthing that really satisfying. You start your turn and see...this is my round, im going to wipe this board. You just read every other option, go for it and succeed after an intense 20 minutes glued to the screen, like eating a big desert.
And the you have the moments when u just want to punch your table or even punch yourself,either because you couldnt kill the guy just for 1 troops, or just because you "accidentaly" forgot to kill that blue man hidden just in front of your eyes..llolol

So i think what people really like , is the adrenaline of it
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Crazyirishman on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:14 pm

I personally think flat rate can be fun and challenging if played under non-team settings. It involves timing out what I call "mini-sweeps" so that you can gain momentum and position that you know you won't lose. If forces you to prepare for a situation in which somebody could get a temporary +10 boost to the deploy that can f*ck up all your plans.
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby vonraider on Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:31 pm

I miss the diplomacy as well as the feeling of hate I can get towards those who have aligned against me when I play escalating games. I confess I get a thrill out of trying to figure out just the right time to break a truce as well. Plus it's great fun for me when I see people making personal attacks on each other in chat. Escalating may or may not demand more skill, I don't know as I am not that good of a player, but it just lacks the people factor that flat and no spoils offer.
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Gabriel13 on Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:42 pm

Crazyirishman wrote:I personally think flat rate can be fun and challenging if played under non-team settings. It involves timing out what I call "mini-sweeps" so that you can gain momentum and position that you know you won't lose. If forces you to prepare for a situation in which somebody could get a temporary +10 boost to the deploy that can f*ck up all your plans.


Flat rate works really well in the monthly BR's! I kicked ass in the one I'm in from it. I think I've eliminated 20 people o.0
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Begbie on Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:36 pm

Not that it particularly helps the discussion but escalating was the only card option in the original 1959 risk rules. It might be argued that the original is the best ie. original coca cola ingredients way more fun than now.....
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby ManBungalow on Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:41 pm

Armandolas wrote:Also , escalating is not CC invention, its part of the original Risk boar game rules

For real?

I don't think my Risk set has enough armies to manage even a small escalating game.
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Armandolas on Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:47 pm

ManBungalow wrote:
Armandolas wrote:Also , escalating is not CC invention, its part of the original Risk boar game rules

For real?

I don't think my Risk set has enough armies to manage even a small escalating game.


never noticed?..lolol
When u get out of armies, u just have to write on little papers :)
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby pickleofdoom on Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:39 pm

Escalating sets was introduced as the official rules for the original American Risk. Currently the official rules for European Risk is something very close to the flat rate that we have. If u buy a Risk set in the UK, escalating will be mentioned only at the end of the rulebook under optional rules variants.

The very first version of Risk was French. Not sure what the original card settings were for Conquete du Monde. I read somewhere that there were no cards, but not sure how reliable the source is. Does anyone know?
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby jsnyder748 on Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:55 pm

pickleofdoom wrote:Escalating sets was introduced as the official rules for the original American Risk. Currently the official rules for European Risk is something very close to the flat rate that we have. If u buy a Risk set in the UK, escalating will be mentioned only at the end of the rulebook under optional rules variants.

The very first version of Risk was French. Not sure what the original card settings were for Conquete du Monde. I read somewhere that there were no cards, but not sure how reliable the source is. Does anyone know?

Ironic that the french invented risk :D

In the American version I think flat rate is mentioned somewhere in the rules but escalating is the preset
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Begbie on Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:06 pm

Yes pickle you are right about it being french. May have even been an earlier version called 'S'enfuir' ;)

It did have cards

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Here are some other images

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And you can even buy a new unopened copy for a bargain 400 pounds!
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Armandolas on Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:32 pm

nice stuff there
I did a bit research too, and ive found out that my 1st risk board didnt have escalating. It was bought in the late 80s or early 90s
It feels awkward to look at it know because im used to the looks of my current board wich was bought 6 years ago.
You can have a look at it here : http://www.coisas.com/Jogo-Risco---Majo ... on_details

..i feel nostalgic here...heheh...it remembers me many christmas eve spend with my cousin and brother
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Mr Changsha on Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:04 pm

jsnyder748 wrote:
gordon1975 wrote:
jsnyder748 wrote:standard escalating games actually take much more skill than standard flat rate or no spoils. Flat rate and no spoils are mindless games that can take forever or be decided by an idiot move. Not that they aren't fun and can't be challenging.

To prove a point people who reach high ranks often play escalating games because if you know how to play them (pretty simple actually) it is way easier to win. Everyone is on even grounds playing flat rate or no spoils, but those who are more skilled in escalating will win more often.

I love the feeling of sweeping the entire board in one round and ending up with 300 troops :D

if somthings way easier to win,why would it take more skill? :)


It is easier to win vs people with less skill. In my opinion cooks are as good as anyone if you play flat rate. Obviously they miss turns and play irrationally but the skill required is attack, get bonus, attack others, get bonus. In escalating a cook will go for bonuses for 7 rounds and on round 8 you will sweep the board with cards.


I don't think you understand standard flat/no cards at all. The skill is actually about looking 10+ rounds ahead, positioning troops to influence the board, using diplomacy to influence the board. Never mind that one must survive the opening, stay active but not too active in the middle and then try to drag your troops percentage over 40 percent so that a sweep become possible.

The actual problem with no cards/flat before was stalemates between good players...and it stopped me playing in 2010. However, round limits have in my view made the game good again and it is great to be able to match wits with some excellent standard no cards players on standard games...rather than 8 man dubs (my previous solution) or even trips.
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby jsnyder748 on Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:09 pm

Mr Changsha wrote:
jsnyder748 wrote:
gordon1975 wrote:
jsnyder748 wrote:standard escalating games actually take much more skill than standard flat rate or no spoils. Flat rate and no spoils are mindless games that can take forever or be decided by an idiot move. Not that they aren't fun and can't be challenging.

To prove a point people who reach high ranks often play escalating games because if you know how to play them (pretty simple actually) it is way easier to win. Everyone is on even grounds playing flat rate or no spoils, but those who are more skilled in escalating will win more often.

I love the feeling of sweeping the entire board in one round and ending up with 300 troops :D

if somthings way easier to win,why would it take more skill? :)


It is easier to win vs people with less skill. In my opinion cooks are as good as anyone if you play flat rate. Obviously they miss turns and play irrationally but the skill required is attack, get bonus, attack others, get bonus. In escalating a cook will go for bonuses for 7 rounds and on round 8 you will sweep the board with cards.


I don't think you understand standard flat/no cards at all. The skill is actually about looking 10+ rounds ahead, positioning troops to influence the board, using diplomacy to influence the board. Never mind that one must survive the opening, stay active but not too active in the middle and then try to drag your troops percentage over 40 percent so that a sweep become possible.

The actual problem with no cards/flat before was stalemates between good players...and it stopped me playing in 2010. However, round limits have in my view made the game good again and it is great to be able to match wits with some excellent standard no cards players on standard games...rather than 8 man dubs (my previous solution) or even trips.


Ya I don't get flat rate and no spoils :roll: (sarcasm)
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:28 pm

I definitely think that escalating is more of a "robotic" mode of play. You follow a formula and more or less ride the wave of it's mechanics.
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Begbie on Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:34 am

Not sure I agree. Flat rate 'formula' - consoliodate, acquire, build, extend, acquire, build, overpower - to me is more robotic and does not have the variety of tactical approaches allowed by the staggered injection of increasing numbers of armies. If it were MMA it would be 'ground and pound' vs a stand up striker, both very valid but one better to look at than the other (depending on who's watching!).
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Funkyterrance on Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:33 am

Begbie wrote:Not sure I agree. Flat rate 'formula' - consoliodate, acquire, build, extend, acquire, build, overpower - to me is more robotic and does not have the variety of tactical approaches allowed by the staggered injection of increasing numbers of armies. If it were MMA it would be 'ground and pound' vs a stand up striker, both very valid but one better to look at than the other (depending on who's watching!).

I can agree that flat rate is robotic as well but Flat rate is more like a robot with a short circuit(x factor). :P
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby betiko on Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:03 am

i don't think that escalating has anything to do with a formula. you need to decide to skip spoils sometimes, not double trade even if you can at some other times, kill a first guy but not a second because it's too much risk ect ect... escalating is actually the game type with the most factors to be taken into consideration, nor robotic at all. you need to weight lots of your decisions regarding attacks and placements, risk taking and momentums.

yeah here in france it's always been flat rate with territory bonus .you deal the cards with the territories, place your troops and give them back to start. Then during the game you reuse those same cards but for different purposes; they have either armies, cavalry or canon on them for different trade values.. Only thing is that there is a joker that basically can be any card and can help you maximize your trade (a bit like if you had a yellow spoil that basically could be red, green or blue on CC).
So what are the spoil rules in the US?? no spoils?

oh and i didn't know about "conquete du monde". I've seen some pretty old risk games here in france and they are always called risk. So some french dude invented it and sold the concept to hasbro then?
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby JCR on Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:13 am

betiko wrote:i don't think that escalating has anything to do with a formula. you need to decide to skip spoils sometimes, not double trade even if you can at some other times, kill a first guy but not a second because it's too much risk ect ect... escalating is actually the game type with the most factors to be taken into consideration, nor robotic at all. you need to weight lots of your decisions regarding attacks and placements, risk taking and momentums.

yeah here in france it's always been flat rate with territory bonus .you deal the cards with the territories, place your troops and give them back to start. Then during the game you reuse those same cards but for different purposes; they have either armies, cavalry or canon on them for different trade values.. Only thing is that there is a joker that basically can be any card and can help you maximize your trade (a bit like if you had a yellow spoil that basically could be red, green or blue on CC).
So what are the spoil rules in the US?? no spoils?

oh and i didn't know about "conquete du monde". I've seen some pretty old risk games here in france and they are always called risk. So some french dude invented it and sold the concept to hasbro then?

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/9294/la-conquete-du-monde interesting, I never knew it's origins.
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Funkyterrance on Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:14 am

betiko wrote:i don't think that escalating has anything to do with a formula. you need to decide to skip spoils sometimes, not double trade even if you can at some other times, kill a first guy but not a second because it's too much risk ect ect... escalating is actually the game type with the most factors to be taken into consideration, nor robotic at all. you need to weight lots of your decisions regarding attacks and placements, risk taking and momentums.

yeah here in france it's always been flat rate with territory bonus .you deal the cards with the territories, place your troops and give them back to start. Then during the game you reuse those same cards but for different purposes; they have either armies, cavalry or canon on them for different trade values.. Only thing is that there is a joker that basically can be any card and can help you maximize your trade (a bit like if you had a yellow spoil that basically could be red, green or blue on CC).
So what are the spoil rules in the US?? no spoils?

oh and i didn't know about "conquete du monde". I've seen some pretty old risk games here in france and they are always called risk. So some french dude invented it and sold the concept to hasbro then?


Just because you have to make decisions about time to strike/path to follow in escalating doesn't mean you're not following a formula but you get a particular kick about disagreeing with me so I'll chalk it off to that. ;)

As far as risk being invented by a Frenchman it stands to reason since the box art, pieces and stuff is a lot of times Napoleonic looking(cannons, cavalrymen, little guys with feathers in their hats, etc.).
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Crazyirishman on Wed May 01, 2013 1:04 am

In the US it is technically an escalating game, but in reality it almost never gets to a point where escalating spoils becomes a factor. Every game that I've tried to play with my family and/or friends becomes an arbitrary "pick some spots on the board and lets battle" with cards rarely playing a significant role in the game.
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby jsnyder748 on Wed May 01, 2013 2:48 am

Crazyirishman wrote:In the US it is technically an escalating game, but in reality it almost never gets to a point where escalating spoils becomes a factor. Every game that I've tried to play with my family and/or friends becomes an arbitrary "pick some spots on the board and lets battle" with cards rarely playing a significant role in the game.


yep exactly and that's why I don't play the board game anymore. Kids be like "I love risk" and I be like "ok let's play. I'll whoop you!" Then they like "no I'm awesome at this game homie." Then Im callin them noobs and they go for aussie in an escalatin game! bunch of idiots...then when I be wiping the floor with them they quit!

Don't play with people who have never played cc...it is horrible now. Play monopoly instead :D
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Begbie on Wed May 01, 2013 9:00 pm

jsnyder748 wrote:Don't play with people who have never played cc...it is horrible now. Play monopoly instead :D


That is very true. Non cc'ers tend to have no idea and I find playing my mates these days a lay down misere. We used to play 'Campaign' a lot back in the day. Pretty abstract but strategic, and very playable in a sort of chess meets risk meets diplomacy sorta way. Cool board and bits too. We still play it occasionally with a few beers 8-)
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby HardAttack on Thu May 02, 2013 4:10 am

gordon1975 wrote:
jsnyder748 wrote:standard escalating games actually take much more skill than standard flat rate or no spoils. Flat rate and no spoils are mindless games that can take forever or be decided by an idiot move. Not that they aren't fun and can't be challenging.

To prove a point people who reach high ranks often play escalating games because if you know how to play them (pretty simple actually) it is way easier to win. Everyone is on even grounds playing flat rate or no spoils, but those who are more skilled in escalating will win more often.

I love the feeling of sweeping the entire board in one round and ending up with 300 troops :D

if somthings way easier to win,why would it take more skill? :)


No one called it it is easier to win,
ppl are sayign it is quicker a game to get an end.
In a 8 player game, player's chances to win is same with 8 player flat rate or no spoils.
But what different is, escalating game will name the winner say mostly by round 9 or even earlier.
I think you are looking at the matter a bit of narrow and you are not seeing the escalating scene in full clear.

Escalating setting games, anything can happen any round, reduces the luck factor of dice one side has good/hot dice but not other. At this point, when cards come into play, you always have it your chance to win. But in no spoils, if your first couple rounds dice are crap while opponent' s are either ok or hot, then it is mostly game. There is no come back. No spoils, from this point of view, seems to me to be more luck based. In flat rate, recently, i lost a game, a doubles game, and pretty pretty because me and my partner we in total picked 1 blue card in 19 cards. All sets we cashed were red and green sets while opponents were laying down their rainbow sets and blue sets through the game. See it the luck involved in with flat rate ? Escalating settings games gives a lot of flexibility to the mastering players, way if one is master enough to see these or not then call it to be a robotic play. I didnt see such a smart robot yet.

Escalating rocks, and no other settings can ever come close to it in any measure.
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby freakns on Thu May 02, 2013 5:06 am

i agree with OP completely.
first of all, esc is not only shitty settings, it takes away all your diplomacy effort, and when you go for australia when setts are 30+ and kill 40 troops along the way, which is something every normal player would do you are risking to be called a noob by some idiot. also, guarding your opponent, what a hell is with that shit? and hiding behind your opponent, which true male would do that?! its obviously settings for woosy pants.

on other hand, there is flat and no spoils, true strategy games. for instance, while playing classic you need not to be greedy and go for Asia. it will give you the best bonus, true, but real strategist will disregard that and go for Australia bonus, then stack his troops there for 382 rounds while doing nothing(also, it gives difference in maps you are playing... because when playing Africa instead of classic, you first need to learn the map, loose about 35 games there before realizing that going for Australia bonus while playing Africa map isnt always the best strategy. good tactician will figure this out after 20 games maybe). and, ahhhh, the thrill of opening game after stacking your troops for 200 rounds to see have someone attacked you... nothing beats that feeling! now, while you are true strategist and general on battlefield, there is always a chance someone else is also great tactician so while you were securing Australia he went for South America, so your infinite stacking might not give you the win. this is where second part of your devious plan comes into action. some might call it crying, but true risk players knows it is democracy. it basically includes constant crying of how low your troop numbers are(thats why some so called players calls it crying... noobs) and how high your opponent troop numbers are. but you cant just say, hay player A have more troops then me, oh no. you need to convince others that you are really shedding your tears over the game, because this is what true master of strategy will do! and you lean on your crying ski... khm, i mean your diplomacy skills to win the game instead of looking for best possible routes of attacks, guarding other players, counting cards, stopping your attacks when you are holding 70% of a map...

and all of you esc players, pls bitches, drawing rainbow from 3 cards and then cashing it instead of waiting for 5 cards is called tactical advantage, not luck.
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