escalating is just wrong

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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Begbie on Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:34 am

Not sure I agree. Flat rate 'formula' - consoliodate, acquire, build, extend, acquire, build, overpower - to me is more robotic and does not have the variety of tactical approaches allowed by the staggered injection of increasing numbers of armies. If it were MMA it would be 'ground and pound' vs a stand up striker, both very valid but one better to look at than the other (depending on who's watching!).
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Funkyterrance on Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:33 am

Begbie wrote:Not sure I agree. Flat rate 'formula' - consoliodate, acquire, build, extend, acquire, build, overpower - to me is more robotic and does not have the variety of tactical approaches allowed by the staggered injection of increasing numbers of armies. If it were MMA it would be 'ground and pound' vs a stand up striker, both very valid but one better to look at than the other (depending on who's watching!).

I can agree that flat rate is robotic as well but Flat rate is more like a robot with a short circuit(x factor). :P
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby betiko on Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:03 am

i don't think that escalating has anything to do with a formula. you need to decide to skip spoils sometimes, not double trade even if you can at some other times, kill a first guy but not a second because it's too much risk ect ect... escalating is actually the game type with the most factors to be taken into consideration, nor robotic at all. you need to weight lots of your decisions regarding attacks and placements, risk taking and momentums.

yeah here in france it's always been flat rate with territory bonus .you deal the cards with the territories, place your troops and give them back to start. Then during the game you reuse those same cards but for different purposes; they have either armies, cavalry or canon on them for different trade values.. Only thing is that there is a joker that basically can be any card and can help you maximize your trade (a bit like if you had a yellow spoil that basically could be red, green or blue on CC).
So what are the spoil rules in the US?? no spoils?

oh and i didn't know about "conquete du monde". I've seen some pretty old risk games here in france and they are always called risk. So some french dude invented it and sold the concept to hasbro then?
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby JCR on Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:13 am

betiko wrote:i don't think that escalating has anything to do with a formula. you need to decide to skip spoils sometimes, not double trade even if you can at some other times, kill a first guy but not a second because it's too much risk ect ect... escalating is actually the game type with the most factors to be taken into consideration, nor robotic at all. you need to weight lots of your decisions regarding attacks and placements, risk taking and momentums.

yeah here in france it's always been flat rate with territory bonus .you deal the cards with the territories, place your troops and give them back to start. Then during the game you reuse those same cards but for different purposes; they have either armies, cavalry or canon on them for different trade values.. Only thing is that there is a joker that basically can be any card and can help you maximize your trade (a bit like if you had a yellow spoil that basically could be red, green or blue on CC).
So what are the spoil rules in the US?? no spoils?

oh and i didn't know about "conquete du monde". I've seen some pretty old risk games here in france and they are always called risk. So some french dude invented it and sold the concept to hasbro then?

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/9294/la-conquete-du-monde interesting, I never knew it's origins.
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Funkyterrance on Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:14 am

betiko wrote:i don't think that escalating has anything to do with a formula. you need to decide to skip spoils sometimes, not double trade even if you can at some other times, kill a first guy but not a second because it's too much risk ect ect... escalating is actually the game type with the most factors to be taken into consideration, nor robotic at all. you need to weight lots of your decisions regarding attacks and placements, risk taking and momentums.

yeah here in france it's always been flat rate with territory bonus .you deal the cards with the territories, place your troops and give them back to start. Then during the game you reuse those same cards but for different purposes; they have either armies, cavalry or canon on them for different trade values.. Only thing is that there is a joker that basically can be any card and can help you maximize your trade (a bit like if you had a yellow spoil that basically could be red, green or blue on CC).
So what are the spoil rules in the US?? no spoils?

oh and i didn't know about "conquete du monde". I've seen some pretty old risk games here in france and they are always called risk. So some french dude invented it and sold the concept to hasbro then?


Just because you have to make decisions about time to strike/path to follow in escalating doesn't mean you're not following a formula but you get a particular kick about disagreeing with me so I'll chalk it off to that. ;)

As far as risk being invented by a Frenchman it stands to reason since the box art, pieces and stuff is a lot of times Napoleonic looking(cannons, cavalrymen, little guys with feathers in their hats, etc.).
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Crazyirishman on Wed May 01, 2013 1:04 am

In the US it is technically an escalating game, but in reality it almost never gets to a point where escalating spoils becomes a factor. Every game that I've tried to play with my family and/or friends becomes an arbitrary "pick some spots on the board and lets battle" with cards rarely playing a significant role in the game.
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby jsnyder748 on Wed May 01, 2013 2:48 am

Crazyirishman wrote:In the US it is technically an escalating game, but in reality it almost never gets to a point where escalating spoils becomes a factor. Every game that I've tried to play with my family and/or friends becomes an arbitrary "pick some spots on the board and lets battle" with cards rarely playing a significant role in the game.


yep exactly and that's why I don't play the board game anymore. Kids be like "I love risk" and I be like "ok let's play. I'll whoop you!" Then they like "no I'm awesome at this game homie." Then Im callin them noobs and they go for aussie in an escalatin game! bunch of idiots...then when I be wiping the floor with them they quit!

Don't play with people who have never played cc...it is horrible now. Play monopoly instead :D
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Begbie on Wed May 01, 2013 9:00 pm

jsnyder748 wrote:Don't play with people who have never played cc...it is horrible now. Play monopoly instead :D


That is very true. Non cc'ers tend to have no idea and I find playing my mates these days a lay down misere. We used to play 'Campaign' a lot back in the day. Pretty abstract but strategic, and very playable in a sort of chess meets risk meets diplomacy sorta way. Cool board and bits too. We still play it occasionally with a few beers 8-)
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby HardAttack on Thu May 02, 2013 4:10 am

gordon1975 wrote:
jsnyder748 wrote:standard escalating games actually take much more skill than standard flat rate or no spoils. Flat rate and no spoils are mindless games that can take forever or be decided by an idiot move. Not that they aren't fun and can't be challenging.

To prove a point people who reach high ranks often play escalating games because if you know how to play them (pretty simple actually) it is way easier to win. Everyone is on even grounds playing flat rate or no spoils, but those who are more skilled in escalating will win more often.

I love the feeling of sweeping the entire board in one round and ending up with 300 troops :D

if somthings way easier to win,why would it take more skill? :)


No one called it it is easier to win,
ppl are sayign it is quicker a game to get an end.
In a 8 player game, player's chances to win is same with 8 player flat rate or no spoils.
But what different is, escalating game will name the winner say mostly by round 9 or even earlier.
I think you are looking at the matter a bit of narrow and you are not seeing the escalating scene in full clear.

Escalating setting games, anything can happen any round, reduces the luck factor of dice one side has good/hot dice but not other. At this point, when cards come into play, you always have it your chance to win. But in no spoils, if your first couple rounds dice are crap while opponent' s are either ok or hot, then it is mostly game. There is no come back. No spoils, from this point of view, seems to me to be more luck based. In flat rate, recently, i lost a game, a doubles game, and pretty pretty because me and my partner we in total picked 1 blue card in 19 cards. All sets we cashed were red and green sets while opponents were laying down their rainbow sets and blue sets through the game. See it the luck involved in with flat rate ? Escalating settings games gives a lot of flexibility to the mastering players, way if one is master enough to see these or not then call it to be a robotic play. I didnt see such a smart robot yet.

Escalating rocks, and no other settings can ever come close to it in any measure.
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby freakns on Thu May 02, 2013 5:06 am

i agree with OP completely.
first of all, esc is not only shitty settings, it takes away all your diplomacy effort, and when you go for australia when setts are 30+ and kill 40 troops along the way, which is something every normal player would do you are risking to be called a noob by some idiot. also, guarding your opponent, what a hell is with that shit? and hiding behind your opponent, which true male would do that?! its obviously settings for woosy pants.

on other hand, there is flat and no spoils, true strategy games. for instance, while playing classic you need not to be greedy and go for Asia. it will give you the best bonus, true, but real strategist will disregard that and go for Australia bonus, then stack his troops there for 382 rounds while doing nothing(also, it gives difference in maps you are playing... because when playing Africa instead of classic, you first need to learn the map, loose about 35 games there before realizing that going for Australia bonus while playing Africa map isnt always the best strategy. good tactician will figure this out after 20 games maybe). and, ahhhh, the thrill of opening game after stacking your troops for 200 rounds to see have someone attacked you... nothing beats that feeling! now, while you are true strategist and general on battlefield, there is always a chance someone else is also great tactician so while you were securing Australia he went for South America, so your infinite stacking might not give you the win. this is where second part of your devious plan comes into action. some might call it crying, but true risk players knows it is democracy. it basically includes constant crying of how low your troop numbers are(thats why some so called players calls it crying... noobs) and how high your opponent troop numbers are. but you cant just say, hay player A have more troops then me, oh no. you need to convince others that you are really shedding your tears over the game, because this is what true master of strategy will do! and you lean on your crying ski... khm, i mean your diplomacy skills to win the game instead of looking for best possible routes of attacks, guarding other players, counting cards, stopping your attacks when you are holding 70% of a map...

and all of you esc players, pls bitches, drawing rainbow from 3 cards and then cashing it instead of waiting for 5 cards is called tactical advantage, not luck.
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Mr Changsha on Thu May 02, 2013 5:23 am

Round limits have made high ranking flat/no cards standard games far more viable.

I still believe that a public 8 man standard no cards with a good mix of ranks is the greatest strategic challenge...one must really try to win 50% of those. Diplomacy is obviously massively important on these settings. In my view a good mix of ranks doesn't require a round limit.

I personally feel the way standard escalating has developed is a bit of a perversion. Is it really how the game was meant to be played?

Don't deride taking bonuses...this game is based on that for standard and team games. Standard escalating sees bonuses as pointless, so then why have bonuses on the map? Presumably standard escalating players would be happiest on a basic splurge of colour and borders with no bonuses at all?
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby anonymus on Thu May 02, 2013 5:32 am

Mr Changsha wrote:Round limits have made high ranking flat/no cards standard games far more viable.

I still believe that a public 8 man standard no cards with a good mix of ranks is the greatest strategic challenge...one must really try to win 50% of those. Diplomacy is obviously massively important on these settings. In my view a good mix of ranks doesn't require a round limit.

I personally feel the way standard escalating has developed is a bit of a perversion. Is it really how the game was meant to be played?

Don't deride taking bonuses...this game is based on that for standard and team games. Standard escalating sees bonuses as pointless, so then why have bonuses on the map? Presumably standard escalating players would be happiest on a basic splurge of colour and borders with no bonuses at all?


well yes, but not always.. i just hate the point most flatrate and nospoils seem to end up with a 3way mexican standoff where 1 is in the lead the other 2 gang up on him, someone else take the lead the other 2 gangs up on him and so on for ever..

in escalating you just have to read the map for choke-points and ways to block others from getting their kill while not gettin to weak by standing in someones path..

but yes i like the idéa about no real bonuses thats why Feudal is great for escalating games.. all about timing and reading the placement of the other players.. foggy ofcourse..

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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby HardAttack on Thu May 02, 2013 5:33 am

No bonuses, i mean the clichie, the say ppl have it in their mouth saying all the time.
It is not fully true. Since it is very wide well known map, i ll give an example. Say 3 of 4 territs given by drop be mine i start with. Of very course i ll grab it the bonus. I ll make a call there, that is, what is the cost of having the bonus, if i can protect it, if ppl are going to be mad and if they will risk losing 6-7 units of their troops to break me through. To me, the bonus thing in escalating games is not a rule, but it is a pure mathematics, what is that i may lose and what it is that i may win if i go for a bonus in a escalating game.

This is said, you all tend to speak over standard maps,
take it prison riot map for example, there are many bonuses, many variety of bonus definitions. Why not make it 3 fish for +2 if there is an easy way to make it ? IMO, no spoils and flat rate s there for static gamers, gamers those like to build, and grow step by step, however escalating game play is very dynamic, there is no solid rule but any and every time you can bring rabbit out of your hat to name it game over. Can not you see ?
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Armandolas on Thu May 02, 2013 7:21 am

I have to agree on the idea that round limits had come to spice things a bit up.
But really?
Its just ends the game quickly.
With round limits you just end up in a situation when everyone does not attack, or just card easy.
Then in the last round you have a few attacs from players who have the most troops to see if they win by the most amount of troops.
I can say that maybe terminator instead of standard can be more fun and less boring.

I only find flatties and no spoils boring in standard games(more than 5 players)
In team games and small maps they can be as fun
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Re: escalating is just wrong

Postby Funkyterrance on Thu May 02, 2013 10:15 am

Mr Changsha wrote:I personally feel the way standard escalating has developed is a bit of a perversion. Is it really how the game was meant to be played?

My game growing up was escalating. I don't know if it was because that's how my friend(risk nut) taught me or if we read it in the rules but that's how we used to play and I remember being dissatisfied with the later stages of the game. There are very few small battles, just one last big one in the end that is over within a few rounds. Once I came here I was hooked on no-spoils as I feel this preserves the awesome thrill/excitement of the game that you get in the initial rounds in the board game.

I still feel that escalating is robotic/thoughtless for the most part once you learn the dynamics. Before anyone pitches a fit, I'm not saying you're stupid if you play escalating, just that once you've gotten the knack of escalating you don't have to adjust your strat very much. I don't like the idea of sitting back until the critical part, twiddling my thumbs. Not to mention it's a very stripped down version of the game. This of course is all just personal preference but I do agree with Mr C that escalating is something of an abomination in that it essentially erases any trace of personality from the map it's played on. The map is transformed into a series of interconnecting lines, sort of like how a robot might see it. ;)
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