Death of casual?

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Should old games be pushed to the back?

Yes
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43%
No
23
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Total votes : 40

Re: Death of casual?

Postby D4 Damager on Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 pm

This change increases my chances of getting involved in casual games. I can honestly say that "Join A Game" was functionally useless for me before, it just began with pages and pages of team games against three- and four-player teams that played together a lot, often from the same clan. I know enough to check these players game history, I doubt a newcomer would (or should). Curiously, these teams never thought to join each other's games, I wonder why??

I will use "Join A Game" now, it's much better.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun May 19, 2013 9:53 pm

D4 Damager wrote: Curiously, these teams never thought to join each other's games, I wonder why??

Hehe.

It's true though, why set it up to cater to a few people farming/medal hunting? It's just not in the direction of growth/freshness to keep it the old way.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby ljex on Sun May 19, 2013 10:13 pm

Woodruff wrote:
ljex wrote:
greenoaks wrote:it's not, put a 4 or 5 player Classic or Realms 2 game up and it will fill. put an 8 player up on a map most people dislike such as Cricket and it won't.

if medals are what you want then you'll have to be more accommodating of what others on this site play, rather than creating 50 and waiting for your turn on the first page.


so essentially all this has done is restricted the types of games that can be played and you think this is good for the site?


If the games you want to play are popular with experienced players (which you claim to prefer to play against), then they will still fill almost as quickly, though now with non-noobs. If the games you want to play are not popular with experienced players, then they will take longer to fill. Which makes sense to me. Honestly, this sounds like the argument of someone who is disappointed they can no longer trick noobs into selecting their games.

ljex wrote:farming can still happen would you like me to prove it? sure people can still get medals, but at 5 player games vs 8 player games it takes an extra couple 100 games. Count me in sounds like this has been really effective.


Of course farming can still happen. Farming can happen with pretty much any automated system. From my perspective, this isn't a change made to deter farming as much as it is a change to deter mass-game-creators from dominating the first page of the game list, a part of the rationale being to get noobs involved in their games.


I am someone who actually realizes that this update has negative side effects. There has already been an update to stop people from hogging the first page an it is the show like games feature.

I was a farmer, I am not anymore take a look at my games if you want.

What I am annoyed about is that I can no longer start an 8 man game on off settings and expect it to start. Sure classic 8 man will start (people will search game finder for that) but not many people actively seek terminator or assassin games. Thus you can no longer expect those games to fill.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby ljex on Sun May 19, 2013 10:15 pm

D4 Damager wrote:This change increases my chances of getting involved in casual games. I can honestly say that "Join A Game" was functionally useless for me before, it just began with pages and pages of team games against three- and four-player teams that played together a lot, often from the same clan. I know enough to check these players game history, I doubt a newcomer would (or should). Curiously, these teams never thought to join each other's games, I wonder why??

I will use "Join A Game" now, it's much better.


Clans battle eachother all the time, and there are threads/usergroups dedicated to players finding strong competition instead of the random opponents that join, but we will disregard those things and act like everyone enjoys playing noobs.

Most established players host games on the settings they want and let others join instead of searching for games on the off chance they find what they are looking for.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby L M S on Sun May 19, 2013 10:56 pm

Is it possible to just have the first page a random sort of all the games? Maybe it refreshes every 3 days or something? Sort of a stumble upon approach?
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby ljex on Sun May 19, 2013 11:04 pm

L M S wrote:Is it possible to just have the first page a random sort of all the games? Maybe it refreshes every 3 days or something? Sort of a stumble upon approach?


That could work well, I also think the best solution is to just make it that players with less than x games only see simple maps and settings on the join a game page. This is already dont but only for the first 5 games which is probably too few.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby L M S on Sun May 19, 2013 11:10 pm

Just an attempt to meet in the middle.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby swimmerdude99 on Mon May 20, 2013 12:37 am

Medal hunting will no longer work well unless you play specific settings people often look for. I've found myself enjoying New World 8-man assassins. But they never fill now that the game finder changed. this sucks.

swimmerdude99 wrote:
ljex wrote:
L M S wrote:Is it possible to just have the first page a random sort of all the games? Maybe it refreshes every 3 days or something? Sort of a stumble upon approach?


That could work well, I also think the best solution is to just make it that players with less than x games only see simple maps and settings on the join a game page. This is already dont but only for the first 5 games which is probably too few.


I really like that Idea. Would it be hard to do it everyday... or even every page load? Or is the coding for that gonna back up the server?
Last edited by swimmerdude99 on Mon May 20, 2013 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby Woodruff on Mon May 20, 2013 2:25 am

ljex wrote:
D4 Damager wrote:This change increases my chances of getting involved in casual games. I can honestly say that "Join A Game" was functionally useless for me before, it just began with pages and pages of team games against three- and four-player teams that played together a lot, often from the same clan. I know enough to check these players game history, I doubt a newcomer would (or should). Curiously, these teams never thought to join each other's games, I wonder why??

I will use "Join A Game" now, it's much better.


Clans battle eachother all the time, and there are threads/usergroups dedicated to players finding strong competition instead of the random opponents that join, but we will disregard those things and act like everyone enjoys playing noobs.


1. What do clan battles have to do with the "Join a game" function?
2. Why should someone have to read a thread or join a usergroup in order to find strong competition when they should be able to easily do so with the automated functions that are available?

ljex wrote:Most established players host games on the settings they want and let others join instead of searching for games on the off chance they find what they are looking for.


Honestly, the idea that "my game won't be on the first page, but I don't want to join anyone else's game smacks of trying to avoid real competition.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby Woodruff on Mon May 20, 2013 2:30 am

ljex wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
ljex wrote:
greenoaks wrote:it's not, put a 4 or 5 player Classic or Realms 2 game up and it will fill. put an 8 player up on a map most people dislike such as Cricket and it won't.

if medals are what you want then you'll have to be more accommodating of what others on this site play, rather than creating 50 and waiting for your turn on the first page.


so essentially all this has done is restricted the types of games that can be played and you think this is good for the site?


If the games you want to play are popular with experienced players (which you claim to prefer to play against), then they will still fill almost as quickly, though now with non-noobs. If the games you want to play are not popular with experienced players, then they will take longer to fill. Which makes sense to me. Honestly, this sounds like the argument of someone who is disappointed they can no longer trick noobs into selecting their games.

ljex wrote:farming can still happen would you like me to prove it? sure people can still get medals, but at 5 player games vs 8 player games it takes an extra couple 100 games. Count me in sounds like this has been really effective.


Of course farming can still happen. Farming can happen with pretty much any automated system. From my perspective, this isn't a change made to deter farming as much as it is a change to deter mass-game-creators from dominating the first page of the game list, a part of the rationale being to get noobs involved in their games.


I am someone who actually realizes that this update has negative side effects. There has already been an update to stop people from hogging the first page an it is the show like games feature.


That feature is a plus, no doubt. But in my opinion it still doesn't correct for the problem that this one does.

ljex wrote:I was a farmer, I am not anymore take a look at my games if you want.


I don't consider you a farmer. But I am starting to wonder if you're not someone who wants to ensure a steady flow of easier wins (those are two very different things, in my mind) or someone whose primary goal is simply medals rather than playing the game itself. I don't think the site should particularly cater to medal-hunting at the expense of others.

ljex wrote:What I am annoyed about is that I can no longer start an 8 man game on off settings and expect it to start. Sure classic 8 man will start (people will search game finder for that) but not many people actively seek terminator or assassin games. Thus you can no longer expect those games to fill.


Then they must not be very popular among experienced players. That is sort of the problem in playing those sorts of games. It doesn't make sense to me to foist unpopular game-types onto people, which seems to be what you're advocating.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby TeeGee on Mon May 20, 2013 7:17 am

For those of you saying that your games will never fill...


Have you tried advertising your games in callouts? It works for those who use it

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=31
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby PonyGal on Mon May 20, 2013 8:09 am

Big time mistake imo, I've had 30 x 8 player games sitting for months with not a single person join, let alone 8 in any of them. They will never fill. 8 player games are dead with this change. Medal hunting is dead. Playing unusual settings or lesser known maps is dead. The change limits the site considerably, upsets the long time loyal paying members more than it will attract new ones. Can CC advertise if they're declining? Not limit the site options for ppl who love to play various unusual maps and settings. If I were to now start inviting random ppl to join my games, as it's the only way to fill them it'd be invites abuse would it not? Or does cc completely object to players playing games & settings they're good at and enjoy? If there is such a problem with any particular map or setting combination then why are they available as a choice in the first place? There are better ways to encourage new members than annoying the long standing ones. Why not introduce something pro active such as a 'buddy' system where players can sign up to mentor a new person, make them feel welcome & play a few dubs as their team mate in exchange for a 'buddy medal' or such, or offer new recruits a medal if they attend a few society of the cooks courses? - or a block out where they cannot play with anyone of a 4.7 rating or less who is likely to be abusive in game chat. The best suggestion came from the gentleman who offered that there should be a drop down in the 'join a game' search option that lets ppl decide how many players they want in their game then search those (I know seasoned cc'ers use 'game finder' but new ppl would likely not, so a drop down is much friendlier for these ppl). People who enjoy unusual settings and maps will be forced to become sly in the way they try to fill their games now, or just not play them anymore & how likely are those people to continue to support a site that no longer caters to them? Regardless, there will from here on be a lack of variety of games ever played - as someone newly interested in medal hunting I know i'm far less interested in cc after this, it's defunct that whole concept entirely. Less variety = less supporters & less ongoing interest i'm telling ya. I renew each year because cc is the best value entertainment there is at the price & that is largely because of the massive variety in maps and settings and goal to achieve (rank, medals tourneys etc), People not joining up is not an 'order of games listed' issue, maybe long term members feel unheard .. maybe there is a lack of advertising drawing attention to our wonderful community. Respect to all the opposing opinions, this is just mine - cheers.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby EagleofGreenErth on Mon May 20, 2013 9:05 am

The only people who will benefit from this are the people who play with the same partners or coordinate invites. This new option ultimately will result in fewer games being played and further the decline of the site...

PLUS, why are you pumping out so many shitty maps that only a handful of people would ever be interested in playing?? This is one of the biggest problems with the site....
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby ahunda on Mon May 20, 2013 9:28 am

The only people, who will be hurt by this, are the ones starting 10+ games on unpopular maps/settings, that only ever filled in the past by dropping all the way to page 1 of the *Join a Game* page, then got filled by unsuspecting/clueless *noobs*.

If you are truly interested in playing an unpopular map, you can use Callouts, PMs & Invites to get games going. If you are interested in having your games filled by clueless *noobs*, who don´t understand the map/settings or even basic team strategy, bad luck for you, and no sympathy from me.

This update will hurt farmers & point-hoarders, who artificially inflate their score by beating up *noobs* on niche maps/settings. And it should benefit first time visitors, who will now have a better chance to find a more standard Risk game on their first visit.

I´d still prefer this approach to the problem though:

ahunda wrote:a) Make 2 "Join a Game" pages. One for "Beginners" (only showing Sequential Standard games on standard maps), one including everything. Or simply hide all the special games by default, with an expand button "Show advanced/expert games", or something.

b) Hide all the special settings on the "Start a Game" & "Find a Game" pages too, yet again with an expand button "Show advanced/expert settings".

c) Create map categories. Separate the old school Risk style maps from the rest. Only include the standard Risk maps in "Beginners" Join/Find/Start a Game pages. With an expand button to unlock the rest.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon May 20, 2013 11:19 am

It's true that there are probably too many maps to choose from but this update will correct that too, the unpopular maps just won't get joined lol. It will also create a better gauge to the mapmakers as to what people actually want from a map. As it was, the not necessarily popular but more farmed maps were being essentially forced to fill by staying at the top. If the maps that more people actually want to play will now get played more, it will give the mapmakers something to go by aside from their own egos or the farm-ability of a new map when they are thinking dreaming up a new one.

But yeah, as far as the medal hunting goes, don't you guys have any friends? If you just need medals, start a club where all you medal hunters can get your medals by playing each other over and over and over if that's what you're really after. The unique kills you can get by (gasp!) playing games set up by someone else.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby jsnyder748 on Mon May 20, 2013 11:27 am

I am just curious as to how many 1 v 1 have started compared to ALL OTHER GAME MODES.

It seems like even normal map/settings team games take longer. Freestyle will never fill. freestyle will never fill.....

Oh, wait....you mean my favorite setting will never fill? what about my medals? can I realistically get them. NO. Never EVER. my precious medals :D

Has my rank been changed by not having my "medal games" filled? no, I have stayed exactly where I am at on the scoreboard for the past month by just playing team games.

I have said it before and will say it again. I don't get points to go up to #1 through these specialized games. I get unique defeats and medals. The only thing that has ever positively affected my rank was 8 person freestyle games on objective maps. Otherwise the game will only give me 6 points for a win and 50 points for a loss.

I have certainly lost all interst in the website. All i care about now is tournaments/clan the only realistic way to get medals now.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby jsnyder748 on Mon May 20, 2013 11:30 am

Funkyterrance wrote:But yeah, as far as the medal hunting goes, don't you guys have any friends? If you just need medals, start a club where all you medal hunters can get your medals by playing each other over and over and over if that's what you're really after. The unique kills you can get by (gasp!) playing games set up by someone else.


that might work if a medal hunter had braonze medals like you, but when going for platinum it is impossible. 1000 people don't still play this website who would be willing to play me for a unique defeat. Funky if you have 1000 friends not on facebook then you should have platinum all the way around ;)
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon May 20, 2013 11:55 am

jsnyder748 wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:But yeah, as far as the medal hunting goes, don't you guys have any friends? If you just need medals, start a club where all you medal hunters can get your medals by playing each other over and over and over if that's what you're really after. The unique kills you can get by (gasp!) playing games set up by someone else.


that might work if a medal hunter had braonze medals like you, but when going for platinum it is impossible. 1000 people don't still play this website who would be willing to play me for a unique defeat. Funky if you have 1000 friends not on facebook then you should have platinum all the way around ;)


Yeah but the unique defeat thing you can get from joining games right, not just creating your own? See above? It just seems like people want to get unique defeats on games they create like they want to have their cake and eat it too kind of deal. I'm not saying screw medal hunters or anything, I'm just saying that there have got to be other ways to get them aside from constructing the whole waiting games list around it. Seems like the waiting games list should be a place where people who just want to play can find a game they are interested in as quickly as possible.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby Frito Bandito on Mon May 20, 2013 12:09 pm

I think the point is we need to make cc FUN!!

If it is fun people will join and play. If newbies feel bewildered and abused they won't come back.


Getting medals can be satisfying, of course, but is that in itself that much fun? Unless, of course you enjoy killing the meek:)
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby jsnyder748 on Mon May 20, 2013 12:14 pm

Frito Bandito wrote:I think the point is we need to make cc FUN!!

If it is fun people will join and play. If newbies feel bewildered and abused they won't come back.


Getting medals can be satisfying, of course, but is that in itself that much fun? Unless, of course you enjoy killing the meek:)


I don't find the games that people play "fun" anymore. Too much luck involved. If I could still be amused by 6 person flat rate games there would be no complaining from me.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon May 20, 2013 12:42 pm

jsnyder748 wrote:
Frito Bandito wrote:I think the point is we need to make cc FUN!!

If it is fun people will join and play. If newbies feel bewildered and abused they won't come back.


Getting medals can be satisfying, of course, but is that in itself that much fun? Unless, of course you enjoy killing the meek:)


I don't find the games that people play "fun" anymore. Too much luck involved. If I could still be amused by 6 person flat rate games there would be no complaining from me.

When you've got highly skilled players vs. highly skilled players isn't that really just luck too?

I think the goal should be to make it most fun for the most amount of people. This, unfortunately but unavoidably, may adversely affect those that are hardest to please.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby greenoaks on Mon May 20, 2013 5:34 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:But yeah, as far as the medal hunting goes, don't you guys have any friends? If you just need medals, start a club where all you medal hunters can get your medals by playing each other over and over and over if that's what you're really after. The unique kills you can get by (gasp!) playing games set up by someone else.

there is already a Usergroup called Medal Hunters are some such thing set up to help players go for medals.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby ljex on Mon May 20, 2013 6:18 pm

Woodruff wrote:
ljex wrote:
D4 Damager wrote:This change increases my chances of getting involved in casual games. I can honestly say that "Join A Game" was functionally useless for me before, it just began with pages and pages of team games against three- and four-player teams that played together a lot, often from the same clan. I know enough to check these players game history, I doubt a newcomer would (or should). Curiously, these teams never thought to join each other's games, I wonder why??

I will use "Join A Game" now, it's much better.


Clans battle eachother all the time, and there are threads/usergroups dedicated to players finding strong competition instead of the random opponents that join, but we will disregard those things and act like everyone enjoys playing noobs.


1. What do clan battles have to do with the "Join a game" function?
2. Why should someone have to read a thread or join a usergroup in order to find strong competition when they should be able to easily do so with the automated functions that are available?

In response to his good players never play good players comments...good players play stiff competition all the time those are just examples of how it is facilitated.

ljex wrote:Most established players host games on the settings they want and let others join instead of searching for games on the off chance they find what they are looking for.


Honestly, the idea that "my game won't be on the first page, but I don't want to join anyone else's game smacks of trying to avoid real competition.


I have no doubt that team games will still get filled, aside for when one straggler joins the game and an established team doesnt want to join along with them. Referring to his post about good players not playing good players again. Most good players play the games they find fun or games as practice for clan competition thus they have specific settings in mind and host rather than join something close.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon May 20, 2013 7:11 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Honestly, the idea that "my game won't be on the first page, but I don't want to join anyone else's game smacks of trying to avoid real competition.

I think it more smacks of "control freaking" or "fear of losing points by playing noobs on even ground because every once in a while they win" but either way yeah, it's odd to complain about your games not filling because nobody wants to play them. What are we a bunch of spoiled Only Children?
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby ljex on Mon May 20, 2013 7:19 pm

Woodruff wrote:Then they must not be very popular among experienced players. That is sort of the problem in playing those sorts of games. It doesn't make sense to me to foist unpopular game-types onto people, which seems to be what you're advocating.


I think this is one of the biggest problems that any player who has never been a high ranker fails to see and is the reason higher ranked players will never join a majority of public games.

Assassin: On most maps/settings it is a crap-shoot (especially the ones i was referring to earlier on doodle/lux)
Terminator: Players will target higher ranked players for their points so why join if you are actually going to be at a disadvantage.
Standard: There are too many noobs who will try for a bonus or go for a kill to early. This increases the luck factor where a player will win 80 or lose 40 in a 8 person game.
1 vs 1: Win 10 lose 40, you cant win enough on most settings/maps to have a good chance of winning.

For all of these settings a player above 3000 points or so can never gain or even maintain points on the average map/setting combo. This is why they are unpopular against "good competition" because the good competition can't possibly stay in the "good competition" category playing these style of games.

This right here is why you see good players playing complicated map and setting combos, because it increases luck that is required to beat skill.

The games that will suffer are those that the middle competition enjoys and the large player farming games. I think the more important is that the middle competition will lose their fun. These are the people that hover around the 1400-2000 point range playing the off settings that fill with noobs but dont require enough skill to accumulate points. I would argue that this is the most vital group to the success of conquer club. There are not enough of the so called elite players, give or take 300-400 at any time, and the lower ranked players also have a low premium percentage.

Now I understand that you think this will reduce and hopefully eliminate farming while also improving the enjoyment of new players but I would strongly disagree. If you really wanted to help new players you would restrict types of games they see on the join a game page. Give them really simple maps/settings that are extremely luck based so that they can win a few games early on. Then after they have met a certain criteria (games completed/games won) have them advance and see more settings.

If I were the owner of the site, I would have a group of mods dedicated to enhancing the experience of new players and have them host speed and casual games on a certain group of easy to learn settings. They would then teach the new players the basics of the game and provide a friendly contact as the first person the player plays. We have seen no shortage of players willing to help CC over the years so I highly doubt that this would be hard to accomplish. From this these new players can learn that attacking with a 3 has lower odds or that attacking a neutral for no gain is a bad idea or many other possible things. For their services this group of mods receives free premium/contribution medals/a seat at the table in the mod forms etc. Society of the cooks is fine and dandy but players have to actively seek it out when most new users dont ever browse the forums. Here every new player will have this as their first contact and only be able to join other games through game finder (in case they are coming on the recommendation of a friend).

On the other side of the coin we have the reduction of farming. I would think in some respects it makes farming easier and in some harder. If your goal is to farm on team games (quads/triples) or 6/7/8 man games then you are shit out of luck, you will have a difficult time ever getting enough games started to farm. That said if you are playing dubs or 1 vs 1 on a farming map I think it makes it easier in a sense. Back in my earlier years I farmed my way to get to the conqueror spot. All things said and done it took me a few months to get to ~5000 points. Now the major issue here was not winning games, that was easy at about 95% on the farming map of choice, the hard thing was getting games to start. I would set up 50 and wait days for people to join, eventually they would get up in the pages an players would join and from there we all know what happens. However as it stands now if I am playing 1 vs 1 games I can create 5 wait for them to fill or drop down the pages. If they drop down the pages I can drop the game and repeat the process as necessary until I am at my my desired number of active games. Instead of giving an established team 1-2 weeks to join the game I have instant access to the first page where noobs will join.

In short you have done nothing to eliminate the true farmer, the person pushing for conqueror or someone willing to do whatever it takes to get to a higher rank. They will find a way to play vs inexperienced players on a map/setting combo that requires a lot of play skill. And with that in mind, all we have done is harm those players who truly enjoy playing the off settings and are not doing it to farm.

I would also like to point out that most of what we call farming is not true farming. Someone earlier referenced Klobber and yet for all the players he foed while playing his circus maximus games and all the noobs he played against he never maintained much more than the rank of major. Now don't get me wrong I was more than happy to see him go, but if you cant win enough games to make it past major it means the "noobs" are winning relatively often. Now if someone who put such a high amount of effort in couldnt keep a higher rank that major how many people do you really think are truly farming to the point where newer players think they are unable to win and give up trying?
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