Death of casual?

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Should old games be pushed to the back?

Yes
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43%
No
23
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Total votes : 40

Re: Death of casual?

Postby jsnyder748 on Mon May 20, 2013 11:27 am

I am just curious as to how many 1 v 1 have started compared to ALL OTHER GAME MODES.

It seems like even normal map/settings team games take longer. Freestyle will never fill. freestyle will never fill.....

Oh, wait....you mean my favorite setting will never fill? what about my medals? can I realistically get them. NO. Never EVER. my precious medals :D

Has my rank been changed by not having my "medal games" filled? no, I have stayed exactly where I am at on the scoreboard for the past month by just playing team games.

I have said it before and will say it again. I don't get points to go up to #1 through these specialized games. I get unique defeats and medals. The only thing that has ever positively affected my rank was 8 person freestyle games on objective maps. Otherwise the game will only give me 6 points for a win and 50 points for a loss.

I have certainly lost all interst in the website. All i care about now is tournaments/clan the only realistic way to get medals now.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby jsnyder748 on Mon May 20, 2013 11:30 am

Funkyterrance wrote:But yeah, as far as the medal hunting goes, don't you guys have any friends? If you just need medals, start a club where all you medal hunters can get your medals by playing each other over and over and over if that's what you're really after. The unique kills you can get by (gasp!) playing games set up by someone else.


that might work if a medal hunter had braonze medals like you, but when going for platinum it is impossible. 1000 people don't still play this website who would be willing to play me for a unique defeat. Funky if you have 1000 friends not on facebook then you should have platinum all the way around ;)
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon May 20, 2013 11:55 am

jsnyder748 wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:But yeah, as far as the medal hunting goes, don't you guys have any friends? If you just need medals, start a club where all you medal hunters can get your medals by playing each other over and over and over if that's what you're really after. The unique kills you can get by (gasp!) playing games set up by someone else.


that might work if a medal hunter had braonze medals like you, but when going for platinum it is impossible. 1000 people don't still play this website who would be willing to play me for a unique defeat. Funky if you have 1000 friends not on facebook then you should have platinum all the way around ;)


Yeah but the unique defeat thing you can get from joining games right, not just creating your own? See above? It just seems like people want to get unique defeats on games they create like they want to have their cake and eat it too kind of deal. I'm not saying screw medal hunters or anything, I'm just saying that there have got to be other ways to get them aside from constructing the whole waiting games list around it. Seems like the waiting games list should be a place where people who just want to play can find a game they are interested in as quickly as possible.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby Frito Bandito on Mon May 20, 2013 12:09 pm

I think the point is we need to make cc FUN!!

If it is fun people will join and play. If newbies feel bewildered and abused they won't come back.


Getting medals can be satisfying, of course, but is that in itself that much fun? Unless, of course you enjoy killing the meek:)
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby jsnyder748 on Mon May 20, 2013 12:14 pm

Frito Bandito wrote:I think the point is we need to make cc FUN!!

If it is fun people will join and play. If newbies feel bewildered and abused they won't come back.


Getting medals can be satisfying, of course, but is that in itself that much fun? Unless, of course you enjoy killing the meek:)


I don't find the games that people play "fun" anymore. Too much luck involved. If I could still be amused by 6 person flat rate games there would be no complaining from me.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon May 20, 2013 12:42 pm

jsnyder748 wrote:
Frito Bandito wrote:I think the point is we need to make cc FUN!!

If it is fun people will join and play. If newbies feel bewildered and abused they won't come back.


Getting medals can be satisfying, of course, but is that in itself that much fun? Unless, of course you enjoy killing the meek:)


I don't find the games that people play "fun" anymore. Too much luck involved. If I could still be amused by 6 person flat rate games there would be no complaining from me.

When you've got highly skilled players vs. highly skilled players isn't that really just luck too?

I think the goal should be to make it most fun for the most amount of people. This, unfortunately but unavoidably, may adversely affect those that are hardest to please.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby greenoaks on Mon May 20, 2013 5:34 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:But yeah, as far as the medal hunting goes, don't you guys have any friends? If you just need medals, start a club where all you medal hunters can get your medals by playing each other over and over and over if that's what you're really after. The unique kills you can get by (gasp!) playing games set up by someone else.

there is already a Usergroup called Medal Hunters are some such thing set up to help players go for medals.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby ljex on Mon May 20, 2013 6:18 pm

Woodruff wrote:
ljex wrote:
D4 Damager wrote:This change increases my chances of getting involved in casual games. I can honestly say that "Join A Game" was functionally useless for me before, it just began with pages and pages of team games against three- and four-player teams that played together a lot, often from the same clan. I know enough to check these players game history, I doubt a newcomer would (or should). Curiously, these teams never thought to join each other's games, I wonder why??

I will use "Join A Game" now, it's much better.


Clans battle eachother all the time, and there are threads/usergroups dedicated to players finding strong competition instead of the random opponents that join, but we will disregard those things and act like everyone enjoys playing noobs.


1. What do clan battles have to do with the "Join a game" function?
2. Why should someone have to read a thread or join a usergroup in order to find strong competition when they should be able to easily do so with the automated functions that are available?

In response to his good players never play good players comments...good players play stiff competition all the time those are just examples of how it is facilitated.

ljex wrote:Most established players host games on the settings they want and let others join instead of searching for games on the off chance they find what they are looking for.


Honestly, the idea that "my game won't be on the first page, but I don't want to join anyone else's game smacks of trying to avoid real competition.


I have no doubt that team games will still get filled, aside for when one straggler joins the game and an established team doesnt want to join along with them. Referring to his post about good players not playing good players again. Most good players play the games they find fun or games as practice for clan competition thus they have specific settings in mind and host rather than join something close.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon May 20, 2013 7:11 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Honestly, the idea that "my game won't be on the first page, but I don't want to join anyone else's game smacks of trying to avoid real competition.

I think it more smacks of "control freaking" or "fear of losing points by playing noobs on even ground because every once in a while they win" but either way yeah, it's odd to complain about your games not filling because nobody wants to play them. What are we a bunch of spoiled Only Children?
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby ljex on Mon May 20, 2013 7:19 pm

Woodruff wrote:Then they must not be very popular among experienced players. That is sort of the problem in playing those sorts of games. It doesn't make sense to me to foist unpopular game-types onto people, which seems to be what you're advocating.


I think this is one of the biggest problems that any player who has never been a high ranker fails to see and is the reason higher ranked players will never join a majority of public games.

Assassin: On most maps/settings it is a crap-shoot (especially the ones i was referring to earlier on doodle/lux)
Terminator: Players will target higher ranked players for their points so why join if you are actually going to be at a disadvantage.
Standard: There are too many noobs who will try for a bonus or go for a kill to early. This increases the luck factor where a player will win 80 or lose 40 in a 8 person game.
1 vs 1: Win 10 lose 40, you cant win enough on most settings/maps to have a good chance of winning.

For all of these settings a player above 3000 points or so can never gain or even maintain points on the average map/setting combo. This is why they are unpopular against "good competition" because the good competition can't possibly stay in the "good competition" category playing these style of games.

This right here is why you see good players playing complicated map and setting combos, because it increases luck that is required to beat skill.

The games that will suffer are those that the middle competition enjoys and the large player farming games. I think the more important is that the middle competition will lose their fun. These are the people that hover around the 1400-2000 point range playing the off settings that fill with noobs but dont require enough skill to accumulate points. I would argue that this is the most vital group to the success of conquer club. There are not enough of the so called elite players, give or take 300-400 at any time, and the lower ranked players also have a low premium percentage.

Now I understand that you think this will reduce and hopefully eliminate farming while also improving the enjoyment of new players but I would strongly disagree. If you really wanted to help new players you would restrict types of games they see on the join a game page. Give them really simple maps/settings that are extremely luck based so that they can win a few games early on. Then after they have met a certain criteria (games completed/games won) have them advance and see more settings.

If I were the owner of the site, I would have a group of mods dedicated to enhancing the experience of new players and have them host speed and casual games on a certain group of easy to learn settings. They would then teach the new players the basics of the game and provide a friendly contact as the first person the player plays. We have seen no shortage of players willing to help CC over the years so I highly doubt that this would be hard to accomplish. From this these new players can learn that attacking with a 3 has lower odds or that attacking a neutral for no gain is a bad idea or many other possible things. For their services this group of mods receives free premium/contribution medals/a seat at the table in the mod forms etc. Society of the cooks is fine and dandy but players have to actively seek it out when most new users dont ever browse the forums. Here every new player will have this as their first contact and only be able to join other games through game finder (in case they are coming on the recommendation of a friend).

On the other side of the coin we have the reduction of farming. I would think in some respects it makes farming easier and in some harder. If your goal is to farm on team games (quads/triples) or 6/7/8 man games then you are shit out of luck, you will have a difficult time ever getting enough games started to farm. That said if you are playing dubs or 1 vs 1 on a farming map I think it makes it easier in a sense. Back in my earlier years I farmed my way to get to the conqueror spot. All things said and done it took me a few months to get to ~5000 points. Now the major issue here was not winning games, that was easy at about 95% on the farming map of choice, the hard thing was getting games to start. I would set up 50 and wait days for people to join, eventually they would get up in the pages an players would join and from there we all know what happens. However as it stands now if I am playing 1 vs 1 games I can create 5 wait for them to fill or drop down the pages. If they drop down the pages I can drop the game and repeat the process as necessary until I am at my my desired number of active games. Instead of giving an established team 1-2 weeks to join the game I have instant access to the first page where noobs will join.

In short you have done nothing to eliminate the true farmer, the person pushing for conqueror or someone willing to do whatever it takes to get to a higher rank. They will find a way to play vs inexperienced players on a map/setting combo that requires a lot of play skill. And with that in mind, all we have done is harm those players who truly enjoy playing the off settings and are not doing it to farm.

I would also like to point out that most of what we call farming is not true farming. Someone earlier referenced Klobber and yet for all the players he foed while playing his circus maximus games and all the noobs he played against he never maintained much more than the rank of major. Now don't get me wrong I was more than happy to see him go, but if you cant win enough games to make it past major it means the "noobs" are winning relatively often. Now if someone who put such a high amount of effort in couldnt keep a higher rank that major how many people do you really think are truly farming to the point where newer players think they are unable to win and give up trying?
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby ljex on Mon May 20, 2013 7:31 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Honestly, the idea that "my game won't be on the first page, but I don't want to join anyone else's game smacks of trying to avoid real competition.

I think it more smacks of "control freaking" or "fear of losing points by playing noobs on even ground because every once in a while they win" but either way yeah, it's odd to complain about your games not filling because nobody wants to play them. What are we a bunch of spoiled Only Children?


Wow so many things to respond to in one short post.

The games I have referenced (doodle/lux assassin) are so beyond luck based that I derive no enjoyment from them other than progress on a medal and yet you continue to attack me as if I am afraid to play vs good competition.

I am one of 4 children but you can act like I am a spoiled brat all you want without even knowing me or taking a look at my game/user history.

I am all about helping newer players, but this is not the best solution for sure and in my opinion not even a good enough one to outweigh the drawbacks as you can clearly see from my previous posts.
1) I am the one who posted a form outlining how to get clickable maps set up for speed (viewtopic.php?f=526&t=116987). I then proceeded to actively post in in freestyle games to players I could tell didnt have it and suggest they install it.
2) I have played countless team games with people who requested them after we had completed a speed game.
3) I am no stranger to losing, and in fact love playing vs good competition. Noting is more fun to play than a game that is down to the wire and you somehow manage to pull it out with a good play. I like freestyle because it rewards play skill and is fast paced but I don't have any foes and all are welcome to join my games.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby Woodruff on Mon May 20, 2013 8:48 pm

ljex wrote:If you really wanted to help new players you would restrict types of games they see on the join a game page. Give them really simple maps/settings that are extremely luck based so that they can win a few games early on. Then after they have met a certain criteria (games completed/games won) have them advance and see more settings.


Let me just say that I agree with this completely. However, as it seems that is a non-player, we have to look at other alternatives.

ljex wrote:If I were the owner of the site, I would have a group of mods dedicated to enhancing the experience of new players and have them host speed and casual games on a certain group of easy to learn settings. They would then teach the new players the basics of the game and provide a friendly contact as the first person the player plays.


Isn't that essentially what the Society of Cooks is?

ljex wrote:Society of the cooks is fine and dandy but players have to actively seek it out when most new users dont ever browse the forums. Here every new player will have this as their first contact and only be able to join other games through game finder (in case they are coming on the recommendation of a friend).


Ah, I see you covered that. This could simply be arranged with the Society of Cooks then.

ljex wrote:In short you have done nothing to eliminate the true farmer, the person pushing for conqueror or someone willing to do whatever it takes to get to a higher rank.


I agree, but that's essentially because nothing will ever eliminate them.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon May 20, 2013 10:17 pm

ljex wrote:The games I have referenced (doodle/lux assassin) are so beyond luck based that I derive no enjoyment from them other than progress on a medal and yet you continue to attack me as if I am afraid to play vs good competition.

Nah that was Woodruff that implied you were afraid to play against good competition. ;)
I'm saying you might not like playing games not set up by yourself because there is more risk/less control involved.

ljex wrote:I am one of 4 children but you can act like I am a spoiled brat all you want without even knowing me or taking a look at my game/user history.

Are you the youngest then?(They have a tendency to be spoiled too)

Lol, jk. But really I wasn't responding to you specifically, just everyone who thinks their games should fill because they are theirs. And you do know me, ljex. I played some oasis games on your team back in the day and quite frankly I'm hurt you don't remember.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby jsnyder748 on Mon May 20, 2013 10:51 pm

well said ljex...to bad no one will lsiten.
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Re: Death of casual?

Postby ljex on Mon May 20, 2013 10:57 pm

jsnyder748 wrote:well said ljex...to bad no one will lsiten.


count yourself among the handful of people who even read that post in its entirety :)
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