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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby kwanton on Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:55 pm

uhh....fundamental misunderstanding of game mechanics or am I reading that post wrong?

The reason no one can counterclaim day 1 is no one has a role safari. If anyone were to claim cop or doc everyone could prove them wrong on day one.

I would vote you for that but slash said that all players have the same role in the rules so I'm guessing you were just skimming. But still FOS safari.
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby safariguy5 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:06 pm

kwanton wrote:uhh....fundamental misunderstanding of game mechanics or am I reading that post wrong?

The reason no one can counterclaim day 1 is no one has a role safari. If anyone were to claim cop or doc everyone could prove them wrong on day one.

I would vote you for that but slash said that all players have the same role in the rules so I'm guessing you were just skimming. But still FOS safari.

Exactly my point. What's the point of pressuring someone Day 1? Getting a claim out of them. So with no roles, we can't use pressure to get information. No matter who we choose, there's no point in asking for a claim to make decisions on whether to lynch or not. It's like throwing darts and hoping to get lucky here.
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby Mr. Squirrel on Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:51 pm

safariguy5 wrote:
kwanton wrote:uhh....fundamental misunderstanding of game mechanics or am I reading that post wrong?

The reason no one can counterclaim day 1 is no one has a role safari. If anyone were to claim cop or doc everyone could prove them wrong on day one.

I would vote you for that but slash said that all players have the same role in the rules so I'm guessing you were just skimming. But still FOS safari.

Exactly my point. What's the point of pressuring someone Day 1? Getting a claim out of them. So with no roles, we can't use pressure to get information. No matter who we choose, there's no point in asking for a claim to make decisions on whether to lynch or not. It's like throwing darts and hoping to get lucky here.

And how is that going to change day 2? Our position won't have changed. Our 'roles' will still be the same. It seems to me that you are just hoping for a lucky cop at night, which is no different than going for a lucky lynch. We need something today and your discouragement isn't helping. vote safaridude
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby safariguy5 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:50 pm

Mr. Squirrel wrote:
safariguy5 wrote:
kwanton wrote:uhh....fundamental misunderstanding of game mechanics or am I reading that post wrong?

The reason no one can counterclaim day 1 is no one has a role safari. If anyone were to claim cop or doc everyone could prove them wrong on day one.

I would vote you for that but slash said that all players have the same role in the rules so I'm guessing you were just skimming. But still FOS safari.

Exactly my point. What's the point of pressuring someone Day 1? Getting a claim out of them. So with no roles, we can't use pressure to get information. No matter who we choose, there's no point in asking for a claim to make decisions on whether to lynch or not. It's like throwing darts and hoping to get lucky here.

And how is that going to change day 2? Our position won't have changed. Our 'roles' will still be the same. It seems to me that you are just hoping for a lucky cop at night, which is no different than going for a lucky lynch. We need something today and your discouragement isn't helping. vote safaridude

Well I suggest that some communication can occur day 2 with people posting what they were able to do. Hopefully we can logic through the actions based on what people were able to do in the night. Then based on who you gave your action to, you'd be able to get an idea of what you yoursel are. It's not pretty, but it basically eliminates fakeclaiming unless the mafia get exceedingly lucky with actions.
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby Commander9 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:51 pm

safariguy5 wrote:The main thing I can think of right now is that there's no way to counterclaim Day 1. Anybody could claim cop or doc and nobody could prove them wrong. Most Day 1 lynches come down to forcing a claim and then testing validity. We have no benchmark there. I'm not advocating a Day 1 no lynch, but the idea of "pressuring" someone doesn't really work here and we should take that into consideration.


If someone would claim cop or doc, we'd lynch them straight away, because we'd knew he's lying.

safariguy5 wrote:Exactly my point. What's the point of pressuring someone Day 1? Getting a claim out of them. So with no roles, we can't use pressure to get information. No matter who we choose, there's no point in asking for a claim to make decisions on whether to lynch or not. It's like throwing darts and hoping to get lucky here.


Squirrel already asked, but I'll add something to that. How do you expect the will know their roles? There's only one way I could see that happening and that would be if everyone who received would come forth with the gifts they have received and then senders would come forth. Obviously, some lies might be caught, but I don't think that would work out all that well. Other than that, I see no way..

So are you suggesting that Day 2 we would do no lynch as well?
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby safariguy5 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:59 pm

No, I would say Day 2, everyone post what actions they were able to perform. I assume everyone is keeping track of who they send their actions to. That being said, we can individually logic through what we might be based on what our targets for gifts were able to do. Of course I'm not saying to claim straight off, but at least you'll have an idea if you are a role.

If you want to lynch me, I have no defense. I'm simply trying to play according to the game mechanic and I think it warrants caution. Now I have no idea what I am as everyone is. So we're basically spinning the wheel here and saying guess what, you got the short straw, take one for the team. Maybe you're the doc, maybe you're mafia, maybe you're just a VT, but we're going to arbitrarily choose to kill you. I'd like to have reason rule, not chance and that's why I'm leery of a Day 1 lynch.
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby spiesr on Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:49 pm

The problem with relying on people to say what gifts they got in the night in order to figure things out, is that this tactic won't actually help us catch any scum. Scum can give gifts too. So all it does is help each person figure out what git they give. And it gives people an idea of what roles are in the game. But it doesn't find out the scum in any way that I can tell. We would still basically have to play guessing games based on our best judgment for the lynches.
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby kwanton on Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:59 am

Exactly speiser. The only situation where it would be useful in catching scum is if mafia have negative gifts to give or gift mafia specific roles (janitor etc.). However, I do think it would be useful information game mechanic wise to claim roles given. Especially since roles change every day and mafia won't be able to target a specific role. Which brings me to my next point, I think that we should claim what gifts we received but not who we gave our gifts to. With information on both, scum could easily pick off power role gifters and town would not gain any advantage over scum.

Summary: Claiming who we gave our gifts to will be an advantage for scum but just claiming what role you were gifted helps everyone.
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby aage on Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:02 am

Hey, I have an awesome idea.

Everyone gives their gift to the person above them. If mafia give negative actions, we'll know, and we can lynch them. If they try to misuse this and give their action to someone else, that person will prob get 2 actions and the person above them will get none. And even if all three of these people are mafia, we will still know that about 2 of them. :D

Waddeyesay?
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby aage on Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:03 am

Oh, and the only problem is that the mafia will kill off any cop or doc actions they receive. Which doesn't matter, because in that case we will know the person above the dead doc/cop is mafia :)
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby Mr. Squirrel on Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:51 pm

aage wrote:Hey, I have an awesome idea.

Everyone gives their gift to the person above them. If mafia give negative actions, we'll know, and we can lynch them. If they try to misuse this and give their action to someone else, that person will prob get 2 actions and the person above them will get none. And even if all three of these people are mafia, we will still know that about 2 of them. :D

Waddeyesay?

aage wrote:Oh, and the only problem is that the mafia will kill off any cop or doc actions they receive. Which doesn't matter, because in that case we will know the person above the dead doc/cop is mafia :)

I don't get how this is going to help us. In fact it will destroy the town. If we do it this way, then when we reveal day 2 what actions we got, the scum will know everyone's gifts. This is a retarded suggestion.

And we still don't know what actions mafia will have. I don't know when you all started assuming that mafia actions had to be negative, but I don't remember / ever saying that so we can't assume it.

In my opinion, trying to find an easy way to solve this game isn't going to work. We need to quit trying to find a loophole and start actually using our scumdars to find someone who is acting scummy. Give your gifts to whoever you think will use it well and then we can reveal day 2. Everyone will know what gifts they have and it will allow us to use them more effectively.
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby Fircoal on Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:02 pm

Mr. Squirrel wrote:
aage wrote:Hey, I have an awesome idea.

Everyone gives their gift to the person above them. If mafia give negative actions, we'll know, and we can lynch them. If they try to misuse this and give their action to someone else, that person will prob get 2 actions and the person above them will get none. And even if all three of these people are mafia, we will still know that about 2 of them. :D

Waddeyesay?

aage wrote:Oh, and the only problem is that the mafia will kill off any cop or doc actions they receive. Which doesn't matter, because in that case we will know the person above the dead doc/cop is mafia :)

I don't get how this is going to help us. In fact it will destroy the town. If we do it this way, then when we reveal day 2 what actions we got, the scum will know everyone's gifts.


Who said we'd reveal what gifts we got on Day 2?
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby Fircoal on Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:13 pm

safariguy5 wrote:
kwanton wrote:uhh....fundamental misunderstanding of game mechanics or am I reading that post wrong?

The reason no one can counterclaim day 1 is no one has a role safari. If anyone were to claim cop or doc everyone could prove them wrong on day one.

I would vote you for that but slash said that all players have the same role in the rules so I'm guessing you were just skimming. But still FOS safari.

Exactly my point. What's the point of pressuring someone Day 1? Getting a claim out of them. So with no roles, we can't use pressure to get information. No matter who we choose, there's no point in asking for a claim to make decisions on whether to lynch or not. It's like throwing darts and hoping to get lucky here.


The purpose of Day 1 is not to get everyone to claim but rather to find a lynch so we can see what suspicious things people have done. The claims are only there so we don't lynch good power roles like a bunch of tards.
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby Mr. Squirrel on Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:18 pm

Fircoal wrote:
Mr. Squirrel wrote:
aage wrote:Hey, I have an awesome idea.

Everyone gives their gift to the person above them. If mafia give negative actions, we'll know, and we can lynch them. If they try to misuse this and give their action to someone else, that person will prob get 2 actions and the person above them will get none. And even if all three of these people are mafia, we will still know that about 2 of them. :D

Waddeyesay?

aage wrote:Oh, and the only problem is that the mafia will kill off any cop or doc actions they receive. Which doesn't matter, because in that case we will know the person above the dead doc/cop is mafia :)

I don't get how this is going to help us. In fact it will destroy the town. If we do it this way, then when we reveal day 2 what actions we got, the scum will know everyone's gifts.


Who said we'd reveal what gifts we got on Day 2?

If thats the case, then if the mafia don't have negative actions, then we would be just wasting time. We need to quit assuming that they do have negative actions. And who is to say a townie might not have negative actions too? You guys are making way too many assumptions and this could really hurt town if it goes wrong.
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby aage on Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:57 pm

Mr. Squirrel wrote:
Fircoal wrote:
Mr. Squirrel wrote:
aage wrote:Hey, I have an awesome idea.

Everyone gives their gift to the person above them. If mafia give negative actions, we'll know, and we can lynch them. If they try to misuse this and give their action to someone else, that person will prob get 2 actions and the person above them will get none. And even if all three of these people are mafia, we will still know that about 2 of them. :D

Waddeyesay?

aage wrote:Oh, and the only problem is that the mafia will kill off any cop or doc actions they receive. Which doesn't matter, because in that case we will know the person above the dead doc/cop is mafia :)

I don't get how this is going to help us. In fact it will destroy the town. If we do it this way, then when we reveal day 2 what actions we got, the scum will know everyone's gifts.


Who said we'd reveal what gifts we got on Day 2?

If thats the case, then if the mafia don't have negative actions, then we would be just wasting time. We need to quit assuming that they do have negative actions. And who is to say a townie might not have negative actions too? You guys are making way too many assumptions and this could really hurt town if it goes wrong.

Fircoal already answers your question. We don't say "oh i got a cop action". No, we say "my action was negative, so let's lynch player X" or we say nothing at all.

Yes, we may be assuming something, but imo this suggestion has been the best so far. Except the "no no lynches" from Fircoal. HOW could this possibly go wrong? If all the great town power roles happen to end up in Mafia hands? Please. What are the odds? :roll:

Also, how do you suppose we find mafia if not with this? I mean, if we distribute the gifts randomly, there will be people who never get gifts and there will be people who get 5 gifts every night. How are we supposed to find that the first category is scum? And what happens if the mafia by some coincidence gets half of the Town actions at their disposal?

No. I say we spread the risk, and I think you should have seen that. FoS Mr. Squirrel.
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby Mr. Squirrel on Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:35 pm

aage wrote:HOW could this possibly go wrong?

Let me see here:
1) the mafia have no negative actions and we all basically wasted the night
2) some townies might have negative actions, we lynch them, and then we lose both day and night and a townie

The idea that some of the gifts have negative affects is complete speculation. The mod never made any comment hinting toward it. And what even is a negative action? What possible role can you give someone that has negative affects on themselves? There is too much gray area here for me to be comfortable with it. If something goes wrong, then the scum will have made us all look like fools and we will have no idea where to go from there.
aage wrote:Also, how do you suppose we find mafia if not with this?

Are you seriously asking this question? In a C9 game with two scum and 5 vanillas, how do the vanilla players win? They use scumtells, and they find scum. What you are suggesting is that the only possible way that scum can ever be caught is through night actions and investigations. I would expect that kind of thinking from a noob, not you aage. We talk during the day for a reason. If it was impossible to find scum through scumtells, then there would be 'no lynches' every single day.

aage wrote:I mean, if we distribute the gifts randomly,

You might be stupid enough to distribute the gifts randomly, but I won't.
aage wrote:there will be people who never get gifts and there will be people who get 5 gifts every night.

Yes, that is true. That is the nature of this setup.
aage wrote:How are we supposed to find that the first category is scum? And what happens if the mafia by some coincidence gets half of the Town actions at their disposal?

If players would just use their scum senses once in a while, we won't have this issue. Would you give a gift to someone you think is scummy? Of course not. So if you are a good scumhunter, then your gift will fall into good hands. Will some gifts fall into the hands of scum? Unfortunately yes. But its something we can't avoid 100%. However, if we all just look for scum as best we can, and pinpoint suspicious targets, then we know that a majority of the gifts will end up with town.
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby Mr. Squirrel on Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:40 pm

This is how I think this game should run. We should hunt scum during the day just as we always do. Pretend it is a vanilla game if you have to. Give your gift to whoever you think is towniest.

At night remember what gifts you got and who you used it on. At daybreak, state your gift and who you used it on, also state the results of any investigations. Because this game is going to have different cops and investigators every night, we can safely claim each action without the scum threat hanging over our heads. After a couple days, everyone should know their gift and we should have a map of all night actions as well. Continue scum hunting. Lynch scum. Repeat until victory. 8-)
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby Mr. Squirrel on Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:40 pm

This is how I think this game should run. We should hunt scum during the day just as we always do. Pretend it is a vanilla game if you have to. Give your gift to whoever you think is towniest.

At night remember what gifts you got and who you used it on. At daybreak, state your gift and who you used it on, also state the results of any investigations. Because this game is going to have different cops and investigators every night, we can safely claim each action without the scum threat hanging over our heads. After a couple days, everyone should know their gift and we should have a map of all night actions as well. Continue scum hunting. Lynch scum. Repeat until victory. 8-)
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby Mr. Squirrel on Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:41 pm

idk why it made me post that twice, (I swear I only pressed the button once) but I can't delete it now.... :?
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby aage on Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:46 pm

The only problem is, with all the bulks of actions ending up on people, you'll never know which one is yours. It'll probably take several nights for everyone to figure that out, by which time there will be at least 4 casualties.
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby Mr. Squirrel on Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:54 pm

aage wrote:The only problem is, with all the bulks of actions ending up on people, you'll never know which one is yours. It'll probably take several nights for everyone to figure that out, by which time there will be at least 4 casualties.

As long as people dont start throwing their presents on the same person every night, then it will be solved in three nights max. Its the only way we can do it safely anyway. If we come up with any organized system to arrange present giving, then scum will find it out too. Its either this or we don't end up knowing our presents at all.
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby safariguy5 on Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:54 pm

Mr. Squirrel most elegantly stated what I was trying to say with some refinements. What I'm saying is that you yourself should get a decent idea of what you are after a few nights too.

Suppose I give my gift to chu night 1. Tomorrow he says that he got a doctor action. Now, I might not have been to only person to give him a gift, but I can have an idea that I'm a doctor. So night 2, I give my gift to aage. Day 3, he says he got a doctor action. Now the evidence is beginning to point towards me being the doc. Of course I won't say I'm the doctor, but at least I have a good idea about that. In that way, we should have a good idea about what our "claims" should be in 2-3 days. Then we'd send actions accordingly.
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby spiesr on Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:16 pm

Mr. Squirrel wrote:As long as people dont start throwing their presents on the same person every night, then it will be solved in three nights max.
Not sure how you came up with that number, in theory it could take even longer if another person keeps picking the same guy as you.
aage wrote:Fircoal already answers your question. We don't say "oh i got a cop action". No, we say "my action was negative, so let's lynch player X" or we say nothing at all.
Yes, we may be assuming something, but imo this suggestion has been the best so far. Except the "no no lynches" from Fircoal. HOW could this possibly go wrong? If all the great town power roles happen to end up in Mafia hands? Please. What are the odds? :roll:
Also, how do you suppose we find mafia if not with this? I mean, if we distribute the gifts randomly, there will be people who never get gifts and there will be people who get 5 gifts every night. How are we supposed to find that the first category is scum? And what happens if the mafia by some coincidence gets half of the Town actions at their disposal?
No. I say we spread the risk, and I think you should have seen that. FoS Mr. Squirrel.
This is sarcasm right? Or are you actually trying to look really scummy?

The way I see it, we can state what gifts we receive each night if we want to help people figure out what gifts they have. Any grander schemes to figure everything out seem likely to not work out that well. At this point, I wonder exactly what good it would be to even have people figure out their own gifts. I mean, as long as gifts only range from powerful to useless and don't include in out harmful ones, then you are going to want to give your gift to the person you believe to be the most competent town aligned players. Do you even need to know exactly what the power it is when making that choice?

One thing I just thought of about how lynching will work later in the game. Once people all figure out what their own powers are, then when we go to lynch someone they will say "oh I have such or such a gift" and they will be telling the truth, the problem is that while we will know their power, the mafia all the same powers. I personally am used to deciding a whether or not to proceed with a lynch based on if I believe the claim or not. That won't work here though. Now that I think about it, isn't there an entire mafia game-type where everyone knows everyone's role from the start, and some of the players are randomly mafia in addition to that role? I haven't every played one like that, but I imagine that that is similar to how this game will have to play out. Does anyone know what strategies are used for games like that?
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby Commander9 on Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:26 am

safariguy5 wrote:Mr. Squirrel most elegantly stated what I was trying to say with some refinements. What I'm saying is that you yourself should get a decent idea of what you are after a few nights too.

Suppose I give my gift to chu night 1. Tomorrow he says that he got a doctor action. Now, I might not have been to only person to give him a gift, but I can have an idea that I'm a doctor. So night 2, I give my gift to aage. Day 3, he says he got a doctor action. Now the evidence is beginning to point towards me being the doc. Of course I won't say I'm the doctor, but at least I have a good idea about that. In that way, we should have a good idea about what our "claims" should be in 2-3 days. Then we'd send actions accordingly.


If I am being honest, this does sound like a fairly good idea. I, for one, would like to know what I am giving before I do so. Also, Spiesr, I think some roles are more often found in mafia than others, so while this shouldn't help us decide on lynches alone, I do feel like this might be a good indication of whether a claim is truthful or not.

This won't be easy, but we all know what we signed up for ;)
But... It was so artistically done.
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Re: Rolegift Mafia, Day One

Postby aage on Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:34 am

So what happens if the mafia end up with your gift? What do you suppose they'll say?
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